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Prima Pipe Install: any tips?

 
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DouglasLive
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2007 Buddy "Series Italia"

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:28 am    Post subject: Prima Pipe Install: any tips? Reply with quote

Just got a second-hand Prima Pipe and am ready to attempt an install, all by my lonesome. Smile

Any tips before I get in over my head? Do I need different hardware than the bolts/etc. currently holding the OEM pipe? Anyone got a pic and/or approximate size for the spacers I read about in another thread? My Prima didn't come with any hardware.

Thanks in advance!
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ScooterTrash
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't remember the size of the spacers but you will need them
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afriendofcheese
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm no expert but you'll ned to re-jet it.
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Corsair
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See this is why all our great resident tech heads need to add more stuff to the Tech Library *hint*hint* Wink Wink
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twharton
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doug,

I've had mine over 1.5 years and it was just a very simple bolt on. I have never re-jetted. I was told by Scooterworks when I bought it that I would not have to re-jet. I live at sea level. It runs fine and zippy and when I have done plug chops they are the requisite coffee creamer color.

That said of all the posts that say an re-jet is required, including from shop owners, they are all in northern climates. BTW I don't consider the great lakes area as sea level.

You'll love it. Along with the windscreen (reduced drag) you should see 7-11 mph speed increase.

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Last edited by twharton on Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

twharton wrote:
Quote:
I have done plug chops they are the requisite coffee creamer color


Somehow I just don't think you are talking about coffee.
What the heck is a plug chop? Confused

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twharton
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go out on a ride for a few miles to warm up completely. Then, find a straight, level, quiet (no traffic if possible) stretch of road. Run the scooter up to the top of third gear, but don't shift to fourth, just let it rev in third. Once it's out of breath in third gear, simultaneously pull in the clutch and kill the engine. Safely coast to a stop somewhere with enough room to pop the hood and remove the plug.

At this point, look at the plug.

If the inner ceramic bit is white or gray, or you see little balls stuck to the electrode tip, you're too lean and in danger of seizing. Change to a bigger jet. (If you have to go home to get the jet, remember to ride very gently.)

If it's somewhere between light caramel and milk chocolate color, and there's no excessive carbon deposits (they look like used coffee grounds), you're good.

If it's a dark chocolate or roast coffee color, or the plug is caked in carbon or oily, you're too rich. Change to a smaller jet.

As always, if in doubt, check with your local vintage shop (not the dealer). It's always better to spend a few bucks to have your carb professionally tuned than to sieze the engine and spend hundreds having your top-end rebuilt.

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Kurzer
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had mine on for 2+ years. It wasn't happy to leave the comfort of the nice warm box and be mounted to the scoot. My zen suggestion, if it doesn't slide on, don't force it... you'll just end up shooting spacers across the shop, stripping screws and having to find a new bolt that fits the one you just sheered... not that I know, this is all hypithetical of course.

I haven't jetted yet, but they're sitting on my "to do" parts bench. I lost about 12mph off the top end with the Prima. I've been assured that once I install the new jets, rollers and springs, she'll perk right back up.

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DouglasLive
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kurzer wrote:
...you'll just end up shooting spacers across the shop...


Does anyone have a pic of these spacers? I'm going to need to find something similar at the local Home Depot/Lowes/Ace.
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twharton
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm really surprised that I was so lucky. It was a perfect fit for me. Took about 15 minutes to do the swap.
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Kurzer
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DouglasLive wrote:
Kurzer wrote:
...you'll just end up shooting spacers across the shop...


Does anyone have a pic of these spacers? I'm going to need to find something similar at the local Home Depot/Lowes/Ace.


They're just basic washers, if you wanted to go high speed low drag... you could get an engine or tranny mount that is fairly narrow for that type of spacer but it will have the added anti-vibration benifit Wink

Connect the engine side first, then see if you can slide it up onto the mounts.

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JettaKnight
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I got my used pipe I went to Menards and picked up two chrome spacers. I don't remember but I think they were 1/2" long or so.

As for jets, I changed to a 95 but that still is a little too lean. A 105 runs really rough at WOT so I'll be trying a 100 this weekend.

Jets are cheap and easy to change - pistons are neither.
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DouglasLive
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JettaKnight wrote:
When I got my used pipe I went to Menards and picked up two chrome spacers. I don't remember but I think they were 1/2" long or so.


Did everyone use the original bolt(s)? I assume the ones up by the engine aren't a problem since no one has mentioned issues attaching up there.

Thanks to all for the suggestions so far!
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BGK
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

twharton wrote:

Anyway after setting up the engine to run a certain way you put a new plug in, run it for 20-30 minutes then stop and 'chop' (cut the plug in half)...


You cut your plug in half? Or were you joking. I've broken more than my fair share of plugs over time and the inside is always white!
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twharton
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joking, I edited the chop procedure. I have no idea why it's called that but it's easy to do.
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BGK
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I've tuned scooters; aprilias, vespa smallframes, yamahas, malagutis, modern vespas, hondas and others. But I've still never cut into a plug.

Use this guide.

http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html

No need to cut into the ceramic. I think someone was pulling your leg.
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JettaKnight
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DouglasLive wrote:
JettaKnight wrote:
When I got my used pipe I went to Menards and picked up two chrome spacers. I don't remember but I think they were 1/2" long or so.


Did everyone use the original bolt(s)? I assume the ones up by the engine aren't a problem since no one has mentioned issues attaching up there.

Thanks to all for the suggestions so far!


I'm sure I used the originals, the pipe didn't come with any hardware.

Now that I'm at home I can measure the spacers: [going outside] 3/8".
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maryvu
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm no expert...but I enjoy getting new stuff, and changing things right away. I have technical aptitude, a Haynes manual, Stella Shop Manual, tools and aspire to have a big garage with scooter work bench on one side, and a bicycle bench on the other.

I'm planning some hypothetical mods for my new Stella post break in. I was perplexed about the "plug chop" thing too. Basically, after a nice warm up, take the stella for a ride down a not so busy street, get into 3rd, fairly high RPMs, Pull the clutch. Instead of Shifting to 4th, hold the clutch in, and kill the engine with the switch. Stop, pull the plug and look at the color. Cutting the engine at high rpm basically mimics the 'hottest' your engine can get. Assessing the plug 'frozen' in that state is the best way to look at it.

I concur with the twharton. I thought buddy would be my first and only scoot for a while. Shifting made me nervous. Doing so in traffic even more so. However, fate forced my hand as Amy's hand couldn't (broken thumb); a few trips around the block on the stella, and that was it.

Now I think about plug chops, the differences between Mich s1 and Zippy1, LED tailight conversions and (in case you haven't noticed), reflective tape. RESIST... or don't, it's a ton of fun! Buddy still is super fun to ride, even though I think my soul has been touched by the old school.
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JettaKnight
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DouglasLive wrote:
JettaKnight wrote:
When I got my used pipe I went to Menards and picked up two chrome spacers. I don't remember but I think they were 1/2" long or so.


Did everyone use the original bolt(s)? I assume the ones up by the engine aren't a problem since no one has mentioned issues attaching up there.

Thanks to all for the suggestions so far!


I'm sure I used the originals, the pipe didn't come with any hardware.

Now that I'm at home I can measure the spacers: [going outside] 3/8".
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BGK
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that is a fair description of a plug chop. You can also do it in other situations than full throttle but that is indeed usually the most important part of the rev range to be concerned with in terms of engine health. With an automatic it's similar but you can just be riding wide open and then hit the kill and stop on the side of the road asap. There's not clutch to pull to drop the revs and the clutch may stay engaged for a bit and keep pulling in fuel/air mix with no spark and could give a misleading situation of a wet plug.
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twharton
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete
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illnoise
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A word from your moderator:

There are a lot of new scooterists on this list, and a lot of uppity know-it-alls (self included), so please be careful with the joking around. The retroencabulator post is clearly a gag, but people come to this site looking for good advice, and the advice to "cut the plug in half" was definitely confusing to someone unfamiliar with a plug chop. I think people are usually smart enough to figure things out for themselves and don't need to be babysat, but that was a very subtle joke that could have easily been misconstrued as real advice, which could have ended up in embarassment (someone going to their dealer with a sawed-off plug), misinformation ("This guy on another list I'm on said to cut the plug in half!"), or even injury or damage. (flying porcelain shards are dangerous and can easily shatter glass, which is just weird if you've ever seen it)

I'm sure you were just joking around and didn't mean any harm, but please be careful with stuff like that.

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DouglasLive
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JettaKnight wrote:
I'm sure I used the originals, the pipe didn't come with any hardware.

Now that I'm at home I can measure the spacers: [going outside] 3/8".


I went to Home Depot last night looking for spacers, to no avail. They had nylon and rubber, but no chrome or stainless. I think I'll try Ace this weekend.

I hate to ask, but can you take a pic showing how you used the spacers? I guess I just need to pull off the OEM pipe and try it -- I'm sure then I'll see why I need the spacers. Smile

Thanks for the help!
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im not sure of what spacers you are talking about but here are a few pictures of the Prima exhaust attached to an 06 Buddy 125. Notice the two arrows; they are the original Brass capture nuts. Behind the header attachment is a washer, which I believe to be Brass also, that needs to be put back in place. Some say you need a new washer but I used the original washer after several removals and re-installs.
Looking at the pics makes me realize the scoot needs a bath!

Oh; all of the western world and most of the orient have been checking plugs for many; many years look at any race track none of the plugs are cut!
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DouglasLive
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rajron wrote:
Notice the two arrows; they are the original Brass capture nuts. Behind the header attachment is a washer, which I believe to be Brass also, that needs to be put back in place. Some say you need a new washer but I used the original washer after several removals and re-installs.
Looking at the pics makes me realize the scoot needs a bath!


Thanks for the pics!

Finished the install yesterday and it sounds great! My only question is this: Is it normal to feel some puffs of air coming from where the exhaust attaches to the engine? Part of me worries that I don't have it attached correctly, but if that were the case, wouldn't the engine run like crap? Besides, it only fits one way, so if the bolt holes/bolts lined up, isn't it on correctly? Still, the puffs of air. Help me explain. Smile

Thanks for everyone's assistance
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rajron
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you put the washer in?
You should not feel or hear any leakage the washer is the exhaust manifold gasket, it is to prevent any leakage.
Those brass nuts should be tightened before the element or muffler mounting bolts are tightened down to the rear of the frame.
But, do not tighten too much on those brass nuts; they will only take so much torque.
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DouglasLive
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rajron wrote:
Did you put the washer in?


Yeah, it's in. Here are a few pics:

http://dougstalnaker.com/images/scooter/pipe_004.jpg

See those three holes below the pipe? That's where the air appears to be escaping from.

I'm 99.9% sure the pipe is attached to the engine properly...I can see (with a flashlight) there's no gap.

http://dougstalnaker.com/images/scooter/pipe_003.jpg

Anyone wanna lay under their Buddy and see if air is blowing from the holes above? Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry; not sure what the puffs are; if it doesnt sound like an exhaust leak then most likely its not one.

Your scooter under belly looks so nice and clean!
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BGK
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DouglasLive wrote:
rajron wrote:
Did you put the washer in?


Yeah, it's in. Here are a few pics:

http://dougstalnaker.com/images/scooter/pipe_004.jpg

See those three holes below the pipe? That's where the air appears to be escaping from.

I'm 99.9% sure the pipe is attached to the engine properly...I can see (with a flashlight) there's no gap.

http://dougstalnaker.com/images/scooter/pipe_003.jpg

Anyone wanna lay under their Buddy and see if air is blowing from the holes above? Smile


Also remember that there is a fan inside all that black plastic that is blowing air around the cylinder. If you are worried about a good seal you can also you RTV copper gasket sealant for extra measure.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

has anyone figured out if there is air coming off the buddy down there that is normal? I am having the same question on my prima install... I do not know if my awareness just turned on because I am worried about a leak or if I am actually experiencing one... I am not familiar enough with the sound of the new exhaust to rule out that there a small leak based on sound alone...

I too ran into a clearance issue with the one bass nut on the install but still got it installed, and they are TIGHT, I would probably have some trouble getting them off at this point... will that metallic colored gasket that is included in the kit "bond" a little on its own with use/heat?

the air that is moving around that area is warm... even in the first 20-30 secs of starting up the scooter from a complete cold state... so I am concerned... but the scooter drives great! I dont think I could go 65 bmph if there was a leak? could i?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kc2klq wrote:
has anyone figured out if there is air coming off the buddy down there that is normal? I am having the same question on my prima install... I do not know if my awareness just turned on because I am worried about a leak or if I am actually experiencing one... I am not familiar enough with the sound of the new exhaust to rule out that there a small leak based on sound alone...

I too ran into a clearance issue with the one bass nut on the install but still got it installed, and they are TIGHT, I would probably have some trouble getting them off at this point... will that metallic colored gasket that is included in the kit "bond" a little on its own with use/heat?

the air that is moving around that area is warm... even in the first 20-30 secs of starting up the scooter from a complete cold state... so I am concerned... but the scooter drives great! I dont think I could go 65 bmph if there was a leak? could i?


I doubt it's a leak. The fan on the Buddy pushes a ton of air. you are most likely feeling that. After a couple hundred miles or so, pull your plug and check it. If it's looking a little chalky your running lean and will want to go up to a 95 main jet or so. That's what I ended up doing and it worked out well.

Dustin

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djelliott wrote:
kc2klq wrote:
has anyone figured out if there is air coming off the buddy down there that is normal? I am having the same question on my prima install... I do not know if my awareness just turned on because I am worried about a leak or if I am actually experiencing one... I am not familiar enough with the sound of the new exhaust to rule out that there a small leak based on sound alone...

I too ran into a clearance issue with the one bass nut on the install but still got it installed, and they are TIGHT, I would probably have some trouble getting them off at this point... will that metallic colored gasket that is included in the kit "bond" a little on its own with use/heat?

the air that is moving around that area is warm... even in the first 20-30 secs of starting up the scooter from a complete cold state... so I am concerned... but the scooter drives great! I dont think I could go 65 bmph if there was a leak? could i?


I doubt it's a leak. The fan on the Buddy pushes a ton of air. you are most likely feeling that. After a couple hundred miles or so, pull your plug and check it. If it's looking a little chalky your running lean and will want to go up to a 95 main jet or so. That's what I ended up doing and it worked out well.

Dustin


do you recommend going to that jet anyways? I was hoping to not have to do that, but if the performance advantage for going to a new jet will outweigh work, then I'm all for it... what kind of increase/decrease in speed/acceleration/mileage did the jet effect beyond improving the mixture change?
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djelliott
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kc2klq wrote:

do you recommend going to that jet anyways? I was hoping to not have to do that, but if the performance advantage for going to a new jet will outweigh work, then I'm all for it... what kind of increase/decrease in speed/acceleration/mileage did the jet effect beyond improving the mixture change?


Every motor will perform differently based on a number of variables. In my case a rejet was necessary, in some one else's case it may not be. It can't really hurt, so if you feel like doing the work go for it. I felt a much smoother response across the entire range of the throttle. Gas mileage was not significantly affected nor was the top speed to my knowledge.

I suggest buying some new screws for your carb bowl though. You will most likely strip one or two. The stock ones are super soft and a pain to remove. Good luck.

Dustin

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