New Buddy 150 - stalled while riding today - whats wrong?

jemjr4 · Post by **jemjr4** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:39 am

Me and my wife were out riding our scoots today, hers being a 5 week old Buddy 150 Pamplona. Has about 275 miles on it. . .

at about 40 mph she just started to sputter and jerk and then eventually quit running. I turned around to see what the problem was and my wife got it restarted and took off again. Several miles later, it did it again. This time we traded scoots so I could check it out. (had 1/4 tank of gas).

We had been riding at that time for several hours with intermittant pit stops at different places. I hopped on and it started after balking (not much starting power) and then caught. After several miles, the Buddy started stalling/no power/, but I kept the throttle even and it kicked back on. Finally made it home, about 10 more miles with no further problems.

We left again to get gas, thinking maybe it was just to low on fuel. Filled up both scoots and took off for about another 10 mile jaunt. Thinking everything was ok, about 1/2 mile from home, the Buddy did it again and completely stalled. Wouldn't restart, just cranked over like it would, but it didn't. Started pushing it home and then tried again to start, and it roared right up and I rode home and parked it.

So after this long winded post, what's up?

I don't think it is bad gas, because I fill up both scoots and my cars at the same place. The only other thing that may be related is that yesterday when we went to start it, the battery was completely dead. I charged it up and we went riding with no problem.

Thanks
Jack

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:01 am

Might be a bad tank of gas. I had a similar problem when my buddy was new, just fill up with another tank of regular. If it happens again, you may have some serious problem a professional mechanic should look at.

jemjr4 · Post by **jemjr4** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:05 am

Thanks, but as I said bad gas is not likely. As I filled both scoots at the same pump and the Buddy ran fine for the first 3/4 tank of gas.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:11 am

You said the battery was dead? It may be too low that it isnt recharging fast enough while riding. Will the bike kick start? I assume you were talking about electric start when you said it wouldnt start.

jemjr4 · Post by **jemjr4** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:25 am

Well, it is funny how the battery just died the day before all this started. Which of itself is another question, why the dead battery on a 5 week old Buddy?

However, my experience says that once the scoot is running, the battery itself should not cause the scoot to stop running. Might not let it start using the electric start, but should then be able to kick start it.

Matt F · Post by **Matt F** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:48 am

This SAME THING happened to me today on my 150! The engine stalled and backfired, and I tried starting it back up, but it wouldn't idle without stalling out. Eventually, I could barely get it to start and I could only give it a couple of seconds of throttle before it died again. Had to call my dealership and schedule a pickup.

My guess is that something is either clogged or needs to be cleaned. We had someone with a St. Tropez come into the shop yesterday and mention that his was backfiring a bit - we re-jetted the carb and it worked fine. I'll keep you posted on what we do with mine - but the same thing should work (hopefully).

ryder1 · Post by **ryder1** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:53 am

Did you check to make sure the battery cables are firmly attached?

MarsR · Post by **MarsR** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:58 am

jemjr4 wrote:Well, it is funny how the battery just died the day before all this started. Which of itself is another question, why the dead battery on a 5 week old Buddy?

I don't know about the stalling problem, but here's a thought on the battery: Do you shut off the ignition when you park the scooter or just switch off the kill switch? If you don't shut off the ignition, the battery will continue to discharge even if the scooter is not running. Squeeze the brake lever when you are parked. If the brake light comes on, the ignition is still on and the battery will (slowly) drain.

Twentyfourskys · Post by **Twentyfourskys** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:08 am

Mine did the same thing and I bought mine in the beginning of May. My friend Erics did the same thing too when we went riding. I took mine in to get it looked at and the mechanic quickly told me two things.

1. Always use super or premium gas, just because too many gas stations are putting foreign things in their gas to make a profit. So you know super or premium gas is good gas.

2. Always try to fill up at the same gas station every time.

He told me the reason mine back fired was because there was a moisture build up and the engine finally pushed it out and it took my scooter a while to get gas going through it again.

This could not even be close to the solution to your problem, however it was the solution to mine, and it sounds very similar.

ryder1 · Post by **ryder1** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:31 am

I was told to use premium for the same reason you mentioned.

I put in the mid-grade and had trouble so I went back to premium.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:51 am

All gases are clean, it's just some burn provide more power when needed. Premium isnt going to add any HP or MPG if used in the buddy, it'll just add extra heat.

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:04 am

I would add, do not overfill your gas tank. Gas can soak your air filter and the mixture may become too rich.

Very common problem with Vespas.

gymnation · Post by **gymnation** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:07 am

Really dumb question here: Are you certain you didn't accidentally hit the kill switch? I've heard of this happening...may you hit it again later while pushing it.?

jemjr4 · Post by **jemjr4** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:11 pm

Thanks for the replies:

I am sure we did not hit the kill switch, as both my wife and myself had this happen. The Buddy did not die swiftly, but sputtered on and off. Sometimes then, continuing to run and other times just stalling completely.

Always use the same gas station, where I fill both scoots and 3 cars. No problem so far there on gas quality.

On the dead battery, this could have been our mistake because my wife always leaves her key in the Buddy. They are locked in a garage. I could see it being accidentally left in the on position, and draining the battery.

I will check the battery cables today to make sure there on snug.

The Buddy is not backfiring, just stuttering and stalling +/or continuing.

It is due for its first service, so I am going to contact the dealer when they open on Tuesday. I am just concerned riding it over to the dealer, as he is about 25 miles away.

Thanks
Jack

tunseeker1 · Post by **tunseeker1** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:32 pm

if its 5 weeks old there may be some residual gunk in the lines and carb from initial fill before shipping and waiting on sale which has gotten free and is in the system now.

iinigma7 · Post by **iinigma7** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:48 pm

I had a very similar problem with my Italia 125 at around 650 miles. It was down for three months. The shop tried everything from cleaning the carburetor to changing out the spark plug. It would run for a bit, then it would stall out, and after that it eventually would just not start.

I learned here on MB that it could be a bad stator (which is part of the alternator). So I asked my shop to check that out. Sure enough, it was a bad stator. I got it replaced, covered by the warranty of course, and it's been running like a top ever since. My issue really seemed like a fuel problem, and everyone that looked at it thought that it was related to fuel. But in the end it was a very sneaky alternator issue that caused symptoms very similar to bad gas. I'm not saying that this is without a doubt the cause of your problem, but you should definitely consider it and ask your shop to check out the stator...especially if you're having any battery-related irregularities.

jemjr4 · Post by **jemjr4** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:11 pm

Thanks iinigma7, I have been wondering the same thing. All the symptoms indicate a fuel starvation. But with the battery going bad and then immediately after recharging the battery, this stalling appears. Makes you think it is something like the stator.

Dealer isn't opened today, so I think I will try riding a little to see if it happens again. If it does, I think I will call the road serviice tomorrow and have them deliver it to the dealer. May be safer than trying to ride it there.

Thanks
Jack

iinigma7 · Post by **iinigma7** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:19 pm

Yeah definitely use the service. Mid-trip breakdowns aren't too fun, and if it is the stator, it will most likely fail a bit into your ride. Unfortunately I have to trailer my scoot myself because I'm a couple of hours away from the nearest shop, but if I could I would have used the road side assistance.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:13 pm

jemjr4 wrote:On the dead battery, this could have been our mistake because my wife always leaves her key in the Buddy. They are locked in a garage. I could see it being accidentally left in the on position, and draining the battery.

That'll do it, even if it's in the "off" or "almost kinda mostly off" position. But a dead battery won't cause the stalling. That could be from the idle being too low (how does it sound compared to yours?), fuel supply, or some of the other possibilities mentioned above.

Howardr · Post by **Howardr** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:18 pm

There was a similar post to this a while back. I, too, had my St Tropez die on me twice on the way home from work I had about 1/4 tank of fuel. It did the once the previous day as well. I attributed it to "bad gas" (not mine, the buddy's) I filled with premium and it has not happened again. Buddy was brand new at the time, with perhaps 350 miles on it.
Bottom line, I don't know what it was, but it seems, at least in my case, that there might have been some kind of "gunk" in the fuel line or something.

Howard

jemjr4 · Post by **jemjr4** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:31 pm

ericalm: The Buddy seems to idle just fine. The stalling doesn't really happen at a stop, but as you are cruising along.

Howardr: I am hoping it is just a temporary thing, bad gas or whatever. I took it out on a ride this morning for about 20 miles and everything was fine. Of course, if I ride to the dealer tomorrow (23 miles) it will probably fail those last few miles! Hope not.

Anyway, its got me so frustrated, I went over to the Vespa dealer to see what they would give me for the 5 week old Buddy. He said he would allow a $2300 trade allowance. Lets see, that's an $799 loss for 5 weeks of use. But I am considering it.

I made the mistake of letting my wife ride my GTS 250 during this period of her Buddy acting up. Now she wants it, and told me to go buy a new one. Easy said when she expects me to pay for it. HA HA!

Thanks
Jack

ernie · Post by **ernie** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:25 am

I was cruising home on my new '08 Italia when it lost power at ~45mph. It never stalled. I coasted until my speed dropped to ~30mph and tried the throttle. The scoot came back to life and sped up.

Then I stopped at a light and continued driving home. After about 10minutes as I was coasting to another stop, I swear I heard the scoot back fire a few times.

Not sure what to think, but I'll be riding it to work the rest of the week so I hope the scoot doesn't konk out on me.

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:39 am

Ok, it seems the 08's are having this problem, my brothers bud does this at a half tank. I know they changed the gas tank from plastic to metal, I have yet to check if they have a vent on the metal tanks (or the plastic ones). If they do not have a vent they could be experiencing vapor lock. If neither have a vent the problem could be with the metal tank as it wont expand with the vapors. I will check back in when I get ahold of the brothers scoot

ttreeinsea · Post by **ttreeinsea** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:53 pm

I just bought a new '08 Buddy a little over a week ago and it cut out on me while I was riding it a few days ago. Supposedly the dealer is coming to pick it up right now and look at it. I'll let everyone know what I find out.

scoots4me · Post by **scoots4me** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:13 pm

Darn and I thought an added bonus of buying an 08 would mean more kinks were worked out. Someone who test drove my St. Tropez before I bought it noted it cut out in the back lot where he was cruising. Dealer upped the throttle and didn't think it was an issue - I didn't think it was either. I'm still a baby rider, but once I've got more miles I'll let you know if it stalls ever.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:25 pm

ScooterTrash wrote:Ok, it seems the 08's are having this problem, my brothers bud does this at a half tank. I know they changed the gas tank from plastic to metal, I have yet to check if they have a vent on the metal tanks (or the plastic ones). If they do not have a vent they could be experiencing vapor lock. If neither have a vent the problem could be with the metal tank as it wont expand with the vapors. I will check back in when I get ahold of the brothers scoot

Try taking the gas cap off. If there's a whoosh of air, it could be vapor lock. I heard of this happening with another '08 150 Buddy.

From what I understand, the immediate solution is to disconnect the vapor hose to the carb, let the vapors out, then reconnect it. I haven't done this—anyone else care to chime in? There are permanent fixes for this; your dealer should be able to fix it under warranty.

There's really no need to trade the scooter in! But if your wife is now committed to a GTS, you'd probably do better selling the scoot than trading it in at a dealer.

jemjr4 · Post by **jemjr4** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:22 pm

The first thing I did when it initially stalled was to remove the gas cap. Mainly to check the amount of gas, but also noted there was no whoosh of air.

I stopped by the dealer today without the scoot (it was raining). Spoke with them concerning the problem. Their initial response was it sounded electrical, possibly stator. One of the mechanics was on the showroom floor, as he recently had surgery and couln't work this week, and said there were several places that the Buddy's were prone to short out. He didn't neccessarily think it was the stator.

I am suppose to call the mechanical service number tonight for a tow, whatever that number is (have to look up). They said to schedule for them to pick it up tommorw morning if possible and they will squeeze me in. They are running 2 weeks behind in servicing.

Thanks
Jack

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:37 pm

Well come to find out it does have a vent but it has a restrictor a half inch into the line, plus it goes through about 3 valves before finally venting. I am considering removing the resrictor to help the venting. I think it may be vapor locking and by the time you pull the cap it finally vents.

Malibu boats had a problem with there 04-06 motors cutting out and stalling. They had some stainless steel fuel distribution parts, they switched to plastic and the problem went away? I wonder if I put the 07 tank on the 08 if the problem will go away?

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:16 am

jemjr4 wrote:I am suppose to call the mechanical service number tonight for a tow, whatever that number is (have to look up).

Genuine Roadside Assistance
866-311-8982

You should be able to call in advance to schedule. Probably a good idea, because sometimes a truck or flatbed isn't available locally for a while.

swillscooter · Post by **swillscooter** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:59 am

We have taken delivery on one of our two 08 Buddy 125s and the other is coming soon. I'm a little concerned about this new issue - could you all keep this updated with what you find out? Thanks!

jemjr4 · Post by **jemjr4** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:07 am

ericalm: Thanks for the number. I called and they took the info down, but told me to call back in the morning. They also said that they only cover the tow up to $150, then it is my responsibilty. I sure hope 25 miles doesn't exceed $150.

swillscooter: My wife loves her Buddy. She has about 350 miles on it. If they fix the problem quickly, I am sure she will continued to love it.

We talked about trading, but I want her to have a little more experience with this size scoot before I consider it, plus the cost. I asked her what she would want differnt, and she said nothing. Just that she doesn't like breaking down and it scared her.

I will keep people posted on the outcome.

Thanks
Jack

carlasue57 · Post by **carlasue57** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:46 am

I do really love my Buddy, so I hope they can fix it fast. Otherwise I'll have to take over Jack's scoot.

ernie · Post by **ernie** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:47 am

Drove to work with no issues today. The scoot even sat out in a short rain burst and when I went out to start it up, it fired right up.

For now, I'm chalking my episode up to not enough fuel in the tank.

pocphil · Post by **pocphil** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:19 pm

THE PROBLEM IS AS FOLLOWS:

DO NOT TOP OFF - Leave about 2 or 3 inches of "Vapor Expansion Area" at the top of your gas tank.

We have seen no less than a half dozen '08 Buddy owners come in within a few miles of their first "top-off".

Here's what happens-

The '08 Buddies have a different style gas tank than the '07 models. It has a vapor recovery tube at the top of the gas tank, imagine a small straw going into the top of a juice box.

This tube runs (eventually) into a small charcoal canister (looks like a black plastic pop can above your exhaust) the vapors are supposed to be collected and dissipated in this canister.

Where it all goes wrong - Being that people are efficient in nature (especially buddy owners) we like to squeeze as much gas as possible into our gas tanks. This will prolong our next visit to the gas station, right? What happens is the gas sloshes around under pressure (gas expands as it enters your warm gas tank). It gets into the vapor recovery tube and voila! Vapor Lock. Until you open up the gas tank, you're not getting any flow into your carb.

Where it all goes wrong(er) again - You do this more than once and the gas starts accumulating in the charcoal evaporative emissions canister. This canister has a little weep hole in the bottom to keep it from turning into a little gas bomb. Unfortunately, the weep hole is right above the exhaust. Seeing gas leaking onto a hot exhaust is enough to make just about anyone wet their pants (trust us, it won't burst into flames).

The moral of the story....

Don't over-fill your gas tank. Leave about 2-3 inches of space in the top of the gas tank. Then you'll avoid all the hub-bub.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:23 pm

Thank you for this valuable information phil

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:16 am

I've added this to the Tech Library—I think it may come up again. And again. And again.

As always, thanks for the primer, Phil!

MikieTaps · Post by **MikieTaps** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:24 am

so this is happening to people even when they are half way through their tanks of gas because of the build up in the evaporator?

swillscooter · Post by **swillscooter** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:42 pm

Last night, my wife had the ’08 out and it stalled on her. The Buddy was still running on the dealer supplied 1st tank with about 75 miles on it. She tried to start it, was unsuccessful, and ended up walking it home. I was home when she got there and the Buddy stared right up when I tried it. She had done nothing wrong with the staring procedure when she tried(kill switch was not ‘killing’, held in the brake lever, etc.) and I made no corrective action when I tried (i.e. opening up the gas tank to relieve pressure.) Since it indicated ¼ tank of gas, I took it to the station to fill it up and I made sure to leave a considerable amount of space at the top (about 2”.) I then ran it for another 20 miles with no issue.

What is the reason that this is happening when the indicated fuel levels are at ½ or less? Is the vacuum pressure (as I understand vapor lock) increased as fuel levels drop?

If this were to happen again, is there an immediate corrective action that we can take on the road (or side of the road) to be able to resume scooting?

If it happens repeatedly, does the charcoal evaporative emissions canister end up being irrevocably damaged?

I guess I have a lot to ponder….

Scootswilla · Post by **Scootswilla** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:07 pm

I have to admit that it did shake my confidence a bit. I instantly went from first long-ride high to fear and concern for future rides (what if it happens in a sketchy part of town?). Fortunately, I was only about 1/4 mile from home. There was, however, a hill between my breakdown and our home . . . my "guns" sure are sore today! This happened on my husband's scooter, but I get my own '08 today. I would welcome any on-the-road trouble-shooting tips in case this happen again (i.e. things to check or try that might get me home).

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:19 pm

I wouldnt worry about it in the future, it is very rare these things happen constantly, maybe once or twice a year something happens.

First though, when on the side of the road, check to see if your oil is leaking, if not, it may be vapor lock, or bad gas, just try restarting if you can. But first, unscrew the gas cap to let out pressure incase it is vapor lock.

Scootswilla · Post by **Scootswilla** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:32 pm

jfrost2 wrote:I wouldnt worry about it in the future, it is very rare these things happen constantly, maybe once or twice a year something happens.

First though, when on the side of the road, check to see if your oil is leaking, if not, it may be vapor lock, or bad gas, just try restarting if you can. But first, unscrew the gas cap to let out pressure incase it is vapor lock.

Thank you. I will keep this in mind just in case this does happen to me again.

DennisD · Post by **DennisD** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:13 pm

If it is the vent hose the simplest solution is don't fill to the brim and slow down. I never, never, never, pump gas into my scoots in the same manner as my cars. Pump slowly! Stop at the bottom of the fill neck or a little lower. Do not rely on the automatic shut off ever. Its only a gallon or so. Slow down and enjoy the fact that everyone around you is worrying about how much they're spending and are terribly jealous! Smile.

Dennis

jemjr4 · Post by **jemjr4** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:56 pm

Well, heard from the Scooter Shop and they couln't find a short. The owner road it around for an hour today without a problem. Maybe it was the vapor lock.

I will try to pick it up tomorrow and give it another shot.

Thanks for all the replies.
Jack

ttreeinsea · Post by **ttreeinsea** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:33 am

Hi all- Well, my '08 Buddy is back after dying on me and being sent into the shop. The mechanics drove it a few miles, and it sputtered and died on them, too. There was an incident with contaminated gas from Shell stations over Memorial Day Weekend in Seattle (that's where I filled up last- though my station wasn't one "on the bad list"). So, the mechanics cleaned out the gas tank thoroughly and filled it will new gas, then drove it around about 5 miles. It didn't die. I picked it up last night and drove it 20 miles today and *knock on wood* it hasn't crapped out on me again. FYI- the time it did die on me, the gas tank was between 1/4 and 1/2, so this whole "vapor lock" discussion (above) may apply to me as well. I'm hoping it was just a one time thing, though. The fact that others have been posting about similar issues makes me very skeptical that it was just "contaminated gas," however. But who knows...

Side issue- I notice that my Buddy smells very "hot" after I've been running it for a while, like something- fuel?- is burning. Anyone else having this issue?

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:03 am

ttreeinsea wrote:Side issue- I notice that my Buddy smells very "hot" after I've been running it for a while, like something- fuel?- is burning. Anyone else having this issue?

That's common with a new scoot. Perfectly normal!

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:03 am

This has happened to me a few times. Generally on high speed runs, around a 1/4 of a tank or so. Power loss or die off. I can usually restart it with some kickstarting and a little cursing.

swillscooter · Post by **swillscooter** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:00 am

Has anyone out there been in contact with Genuine regarding this stalling issue? I'd be curious to know the company's input.

ernie · Post by **ernie** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:02 pm

Ok - this is getting problematic for me. Today, I had 1/4-1/2 tank of gas. My scoot lost power and died on me twice.

I filled the tank ASAP, and then rode problem free the rest of the morning (another 8 miles at between 35-55mph with a few stops).

My loss of power and stall seems to be strongly correlated to the amount of gas in my Buddy's tank.

jemjr4 · Post by **jemjr4** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:10 pm

The Buddy is back from the dealer. It ran fine the full 25 miles home.

Dealer did the first service. When they checked out the charcoal canister, it was full of gas. So this is the likey culprit. I had them disconnect the hose from the canister and this should solve the problem. The disconnection will not effect performance, this is an emission device only.

Hope I don't have this stalling again. Something needs to be done on future Buddy's to permanently solve this anoyance.

Thanks
Jack

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:41 pm

jemjr4 wrote:When they checked out the charcoal canister, it was full of gas. So this is the likey culprit. I had them disconnect the hose from the canister and this should solve the problem. The disconnection will not effect performance, this is an emission device only.

Hope I don't have this stalling again. Something needs to be done on future Buddy's to permanently solve this anoyance.

Blame California for this one. These evap systems cause problems on a lot of scooters unfortunately. But given that this hasn't been a problem with earlier Buddys, I have to think it's the new tank and recovery system that's causing it and that it can be permanently fixed somehow.

Disconnecting that hose is one of the first things a lot of Vespa owners do.

Do you have (or can you get) a picture of that hose?

Modern Buddy

New Buddy 150 - stalled while riding today - whats wrong?

New Buddy 150 - stalled while riding today - whats wrong?

Almost the same thing here...

My Buddy stalled as well

Got Buddy back from the shop

Re: Got Buddy back from the shop