Maintenance Costs

Trogdor7 · Post by **Trogdor7** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:37 pm

Awaiting the arrival of my Buddy 150 (like everyone else it seems). Was attempting to flesh out my expected cost of the machine and was wondering if anyone had a handle on what the yearly mtc costs were (yes, it depends on the miles you put on it, so please add that to any responses)?

Also, how hard is the mtc to perform? Is it something a technically capable (but not auto knowledgeable) person could easily learn and do?

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:43 pm

Most stuff can be done yourself in the long run, like oil changes, tire pressure checking, tire changes, etc.

But more complicated things, your dealer should check for once in a while. The first service is done by the dealer before 600 miles hits, anywhere in there, you will keep your warranty. Some dealers do oil change at 200-300 miles, some do it at 500-600. As long as they do it before 600, you'll be ok. And for cost, some people have ranged around 60-100 dollars, mostly just labor, and cost of oil/filter.

sotied · Post by **sotied** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:41 pm

I was surprised the other day when I learned that my first service will cost me money.

When they do a first service for a bike and sometimes for a new car, the first service is just to make sure everything is tight and that the vehicle is working as planned.

$100 for a scoot's first maintenance is odd I think.

Especially when all they'll do is check off a bunch of stuff and then change the oil.

What will really burn me is if future oil changes are all only $20.

Sadly, I wanted to have the dealer install some more stuff while they had Scootle in the back room but now that I'll already be down a good chunk of cash I think I'll go mail order for some of my improvements.

docutech · Post by **docutech** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:52 pm

sotied wrote:$100 for a scoot's first maintenance is odd I think.

Try 163 dollars! They ripped me a new one! I have satisfied my warranty requirement. My scoot will never see another dealer for routine maintenance. They have enough of my cash. I will also be ordering accessories via the web.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:58 pm

Most dealers charge $75-$100/hour for labor. The parts for a complete oil change will run over $20.

The first 500-600 mile service is really essential, and while you can do a lot of basic maintenance yourself, the checks included in this service are much more thorough and necessitate getting into things a bit deeper. This service is to ensure that your scoot is running as it should and that nothing was goofed up during shipping or pre-delivery. There are also the occasional rare instances of a bad part (gasket, whetever).

After the first service, the important intervals occur roughly every 4,000 miles (with oil and filter changes in between) when it's time to check the valves, brakes and transmission.

Xena · Post by **Xena** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:56 pm

My first service at around 700 miles cost me about $125 at the dealer which I thought was great, but then again I have a terrific dealer and trust them completely (Javaspeed)

fiver1971 · Post by **fiver1971** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:20 am

My dealer here in Salt Lake City (EcoMoto) quoted me about $120-$130 for the first tune-up, but stated to bring it in at around 300 miles versus the 500 mile mark I'm seeing a lot of people refer to in this discussion. Does anyone see value in holding off until about 500 miles, or would you go with the dealer recommendation of 300 miles?

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:15 am

I dont think dealers "rip off" the customers just because the price may be outrages to you, oil depending on what bike and the filter both cost 20-30 dollars, and then there is labor. The dealer cant just do the change for free, they gotta make some cash, and it takes an hour to check everything and do the change itself, so they charge a usual hour's fee of labor. Labor usually depends on who your dealer is, but they arent con-artist out to get your money, they need money to survive too.

Sure it may be pricey when we are trying to save every penny we can now these days, but many dealers are small and independent, it's rare to see a chain of dealers everywhere like you see chain stores (walmart, target, etc), alot of these independent dealers need money to survive, and put some in their own wallet. Even with such "outrages" prices, many people who sell bikes arent rich. Most do it because they love and have a passion for what they do. They make average pay like most people, they gotta pay insurance, rent, buying the bikes themselves to sell, plus have enough money to do the same for their own life outside of the business.

Then again, the first service since it takes the most time, it's the most expensive on the list, regular old oil changes will just cost 20-30 dollars, maybe a little more for the small time of work they did. Unless you change it yourself of course, you dont pay anything but parts.

sotied · Post by **sotied** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:25 am

I'm a huge fan of taking stuff to the local guy, but wouldn't you think that since the first 'check-up' is part of the warranty requirement that it would be a covered warranty service?

If they find something out of whack in this first service, like a bad piston or valves that need to be adjusted (if that's even something that's done - there is some dispute about that), or even a belt adjustment, I think these things would all fall under warranty fixes.

It would be further insanity if there are warranty-related fixes that are found and adjusted during this session AND I GET CHARGED FOR THAT!

500 miles is clearly not long enough to blow through any consumables and the first service should likely be an oil change and a tightening up of every bolt and connection.

*On the upside (in two ways) my shop is also Javaspeed in Providence RI. First, they're the best shop I've found and I shopped at four different dealers before deciding on them. Even though they're a two-hour scoot away (50 minutes by car). The second thing is that because they're so far away, I'll be doing all my oil and standard maintenance myself. The only time I'll bring the scoot down is to enjoy a Wednesday night ride with the gang, see a PawSox game or to get a warranty issue evaluated.

I still think it should be like the bike shop model. Buy a bike, ride it for a bit, bring it back in for the free 30-day tune-up/eval.

It's a great time for you to suggest and buy upgrades and accessories, too. So both parties win.

In this case, if the 'eval' or maintenance or first look is going to cost me a buttload, I'll hold off on the new exhaust or shock or top case because my budget figured $30 for the oil and filter and then I'd poke around and buy some scooter porn like a disk lock or second helmet or a quart of oil or that top case and exhaust.

Quite conflicted here. Even car dealers give you a free first oil change (and Scion gave me FIVE as I was in the first wave of buyers of the xA in 2004).

I guess I'm whining a little, but I feel like I'm over a barrel. If I don't pay the hundreds for an oil change and an expert eval, then my scoot doesn't qualify for the warranty.

WHICH, I believe, violates MA state vehicle warranty law. I think as long as you have the service done by a qualified scooter mechanic (this would be pretty much any motorcycle shop that also services scoots), then the MA attorney general would be firmly on my side. But that's not the scooting way.

WHINE!!!!!!! WHINE!!!!!! WHINE!!!!!!!!

OK. Sunny and dry tomorrow and Thursday. Looking forward to my first maintenance and the ride down to the shop in two days. Looking forward to adding 50 miles to the scoot via a seacoast jaunt tomorrow.

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:54 am

The legality of requiring the first service to be done by the dealer has been debated quite a bit. I won't wade into those waters, but I will advise having this service done by the dealer for the reasons I mentioned above.

It's not about what can go wrong in the first 500 miles. It's about what wasn't right to begin with. Maybe nothing, but if there is something, that's the time to find out.

As far as "covered warranty service," well, I think maybe you think the Genuine warranty is something that it's not. It's a limited warranty that only covers parts for "defects in materials or workmanship." (There are a number of written exclusions to this on the warranty card.) So if your dealer finds something wrong that can be fixed under warranty, you obviously won't be charged.

If a non-Genuine dealer mechanic discovers a problem, they cannot do any replacement or repair under warranty. The warranty also excludes "damage which results from repair, adjustment or maintenance operations performed by any person other than Genuine's distributor or the Dealer." So you don't have to take it to the dealer after the 500 mile inspection, but if whoever you do take it to screws something up, you could be SOL.

Again, some of the provisions may conflict with state or federal laws as has been suggested before. Hell if I know.

bfreed · Post by **bfreed** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:52 pm

Something else to keep in mind is that selling scooters is a very different business model from selling cars.

The big [edit: *brand*] (car) dealer here gives a lot of hours away. The mechanics that work for them get screwed pretty badly sometimes, but this isn't the place for a flat-rate vs. hourly discussion.

Basically it comes down to this:
they have decided on a business model (successful for 20+ years) where they offer great service for unsustainable prices, often warrantying work even when a vehicle is out of warranty. But while you wait, you browse their beautiful showroom. And when you trade your 3-yr old car in on this year's model to get the better looks and updated NAV system, that deal pays for a lot of "free" maintenance.

But keep in mind, the dealer profit margin on a new cage would pay for several scooters. And, the vehicle line-ups are refreshed pretty regularly.

I don't expect I'll be trading in my '08 Buddy in two years to get the better features of the '10 version, or because my wife's bored with the color, if you follow me here.

Scooters are tough, because the average person doesn't know that Chinese scooters are... unpredictable. If I wasn't obsessive-compulsive about researching purchases, I'd be riding a Lance Vintage right now. Dealers already have to explain why the Buddy is $1,000 better than a Chinese version with similar specs. They can't tack on another $500 and then offer low-priced/free maintenance services.

Didn't mean for this to turn into a book. All I'm trying to say is that most of us have been spoiled by routine maintenance costs with cages, because a lot of small (oil change, inspection) work is offered much below market value. You pay for it when your transmission blows, or when you trade the vehicle in.

Check out the Crash threads re: how much did repairs cost. Yeah, routine maintenance (if you're lucky enough to have a local dealer...) costs more than you're used to. But if you wreck, you can replace body panels for under $100. How many times have you heard of someone fixing a scratch on a car for less than $100? A new rubber bumper for our car would cost ~$500 to replace. At the CHEAP mechanic. Dent a metal panel, and you just bought a new Buddy...

Sunil · Post by **Sunil** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:19 pm

For me the overall cost of owning my scooter is much less then the cost of the car it replaced. Id encourage people shopping for a scooter to ask about maintenence costs at the dealer and add that in to the calculation. The piece of mind you have with a full dealer service record is worth something too, especially if you starter goes bald.

sotied · Post by **sotied** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:15 pm

I really didn't mean to gripe so much about the money, it's much more about the inconvenience of getting the Buddy back to the dealer for these required machinations.

I live 50 minutes by car from the dealer. If I have to ride my scooter in (and it makes sense that I have to do just that because they can't do any maintenance without the scoot), it will take me FOUR HOURS ROUND TRIP.

They won't work on a HOT scoot because the oil is scalding. That requires me to wait around for an hour for cooling and then a few hours for the service.

What does that equal? A FULL DAY OF WORK GONE.

So, instead of a simple 'drop-it-off' and 'pick-it-up' routine, I have to reschedule my life AND coordinate my mileage precisely while watching the weather.

The cost of this first service...

1 - Day of pay = $400
2 - Service basic = $125

So without even getting into fixing things that might not be covered by the warranty (and at this stage everything better be cherry!), I have spent 20% of the cost of a brand new Buddy.

Somebody tell me how that makes sense?

My bike cost $3600 (yes, my hand made mountain bike from Titus). The first tune-up was free and any bike shop can work on it even though it was hand made in Arizona by Titus and the closest dealer is in PA.

I bought my bike in 2002 I think. I have not bought another one. I have not been back to the shop where I bought it. But they seemingly know how to make a living because they're still around.

Especially after the pig iron bikes at Wal-Mart and K-Mart and even your local home improvement store.

Had I known the anxiety and annoyance that this first service would create, I might have gone with a TGB or a Zuma or a Vespa. Where dealer support is convenient and the hoops seem a little less daunting.

I'm sure that when I get this service wrapped up, all will be fine again. But I honestly think that Genuine may be a little short-sighted in their organizational plan and their dealer network support.

They make the best scooter around, but how about being a little more responsive to the reality of scooter riders?

I can't imagine what it's like for people in regions where the dealer is four, five or six hours away.

Insult to injury comment....Even though my shop is great, they can't tell me if they have enough mechanics on to do my first service until the morning of the day I want to come down. How about an appointment book people?

sotied · Post by **sotied** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:35 pm

Ignore some of that...but not all of it.

My dealer loves me and said I can bring it in whenever it's good for me and not to stress too much about getting there right at the 500 mile button.

As long as it's before 800 or so, they're fine with that.

Still doesn't mitigate the day's pay or the cost but lets me stop worrying about riding Scootle too much before my visit.

bfreed · Post by **bfreed** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:04 am

I do feel your pain on that end of things. The 3 dealers closest to me are each 1-1/2 hours away by car. Taking the scooter to where I bought it would be a 4-hr round trip for me as well.

What would be nice would be if they had the option to have "certified mechanics" in addition to dealers. My local mechanic would be willing to do training/paperwork/whatever for Genuine to be comfortable with him. But diving into the sales end of being a dealer isn't really what he's into.

But for me, I knew that going in. And lots of people on this forum and others have advised, when comparing 2 quality brands, to go with the one that's local.

For me that would have been a Yamaha Vino or some flavor of Vespa. I decided I wanted a Buddy bad enough to make the trip. On the maintenance end of things, I'm working with my local mechanic to make sure we do all the maintenance required by the manual, documenting everything, and taking my chances that Genuine might still honor the warranty if something goes bad.

If the first service is really costing you $500 (a day of my pay is quite less, lol), I might think twice.
If you have a good relationship with a mechanic near you, you can fix some pretty major stuff on a scooter for $500.

ScooterSteve · Post by **ScooterSteve** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:42 pm

I think this conversation is a real laugh! An hour check up should be free? Where the heck is anything free? I've had a few bikes- bicycles- that I took for the free 30 day check up. It consisted of adjusting the brake cables and shifter cables, which stretch and need to be tightened when broken in. That's it. No wheel balancing, no lube, oil, etc. A quick turn of the screwdriver and you're off. That's it. How can that possibly compare to a an hour plus total review of all the mechanical parts of the scooter? Lights, charging system, brakes, shocks, fuel system, etc. I guess I can see where in the past if you got a free oil change on your car you may expect that on another car, but to expect that in other walks of life? LOL!

-SC

krysbrezinski · Post by **krysbrezinski** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:29 pm

I paid for my 50's 500-mile maintenance yesterday at Scooters of Boise, and it only cost me $40.

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:11 pm

sotied wrote:I live 50 minutes by car from the dealer. If I have to ride my scooter in (and it makes sense that I have to do just that because they can't do any maintenance without the scoot), it will take me FOUR HOURS ROUND TRIP.

They won't work on a HOT scoot because the oil is scalding. That requires me to wait around for an hour for cooling and then a few hours for the service.

What does that equal? A FULL DAY OF WORK GONE.

So, instead of a simple 'drop-it-off' and 'pick-it-up' routine, I have to reschedule my life AND coordinate my mileage precisely while watching the weather.

The cost of this first service...

1 - Day of pay = $400
2 - Service basic = $125

So without even getting into fixing things that might not be covered by the warranty (and at this stage everything better be cherry!), I have spent 20% of the cost of a brand new Buddy.

1. Were you not aware of ANY of this when you bought your Buddy? Did you not think there could be some drawbacks to buying a scooter from a dealer so far away?
2. Did the dealer never tell you you would have to bring your Buddy in for its first service? And did they tell you it was free? Didn't you ask about the cost before buying the scooter?
3. Why do you have to give up a day of pay? That's what weekends are for! You could complain about this, or you could see it as an opportunity to spend a day taking a long ride (which I bet is a pretty nice one) and hanging out at a scooter shop. That sounds like a freakin' awesome day to me.

krysbrezinski · Post by **krysbrezinski** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:19 pm

Insult to injury comment....Even though my shop is great, they can't tell me if they have enough mechanics on to do my first service until the morning of the day I want to come down. How about an appointment book people?

That's a problem with your dealer, not Genuine--my local dealer let me schedule the 500-mile checkup a week in advance.

sotied · Post by **sotied** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:17 pm

ScooterSteve wrote:I think this conversation is a real laugh! An hour check up should be free? Where the heck is anything free? I've had a few bikes- bicycles- that I took for the free 30 day check up. It consisted of adjusting the brake cables and shifter cables, which stretch and need to be tightened when broken in. That's it. No wheel balancing, no lube, oil, etc. A quick turn of the screwdriver and you're off. That's it. How can that possibly compare to a an hour plus total review of all the mechanical parts of the scooter? Lights, charging system, brakes, shocks, fuel system, etc. I guess I can see where in the past if you got a free oil change on your car you may expect that on another car, but to expect that in other walks of life? LOL!

-SC

I guess I made the initial mistake of thinking all the 500 mile check-up was, was a check-up.

Just to make sure that the vehicle didn't go out the door with something wrong on it or in it.

Seems logical that I paid for a scoot that was pristine and in full working order. If that wasn't the case, shouldn't that be fixed for free when the dealer checks it over?

Consumables have to cost something and I understand that mechanics don't work for free, but this is a 'required' step to maintain your warranty.

DEAD HORSE TWINGING AS I BEAT IT....

And if they say that this step is to ensure the scoot wen tout the door without any defects, then why should I pay them for something that was their responsibility?

If they put the headset on right, then I shouldn't be charged to adjust it/tighten it.

If they balanced the wheels, I shouldn't be charged to do so now (it's unlikely that in 500 miles they came out of balance).

***BUT, I've come to terms with this and did make the choice to buy this scoot over MANY other brands because I believe it's the best one for me.

I'd quote Eric here, but don't know how to do two separates in the same....but I will answer what I remember of his post.

I did know the dealer was far away. There's another in NH about the same distance with me squarely in the middle. I DIDN'T know until I was paying for the scoot that I would have to have them do my first service.

I love their shop. It's a horror show of a ride on a scoot (no real direct back roads to get there), but it is a great excuse to spend the day on the scoot and that's what I will be doing tomorrow.

Ultimately (and this should lend some perspective to this whole thread and my comments within), I wan this scoot to last and I bought the scoot because to me it represents some real control and freedom. The reason I got so mired in this argument is because this first maintenance is not being done on my terms and that negates the control and freedom I so desperately want.

In two days (after tomorrow's service) I'll be back to happy-go-lucky and won't give this thread a second thought. My warranty will be intact. My scoot will be fed with new oil and some loving attention. And I'll be surging forward to the next maintenance interval. At which time I might CHOOSE to dash back down to the shop or not. But at that time the CHOICE will be mine.

sotied · Post by **sotied** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:20 pm

krysbrezinski wrote:
Insult to injury comment....Even though my shop is great, they can't tell me if they have enough mechanics on to do my first service until the morning of the day I want to come down. How about an appointment book people?
That's a problem with your dealer, not Genuine--my local dealer let me schedule the 500-mile checkup a week in advance.

It might just be the problem with mechanics who are sitting around a shop that used to be filled to the gills with bikes that needed to be prepped. Now that shop has echos reverberating because the scoots are gone and they summer is here. It's not uncommon - I guess - for one of the two mechanics to call in sick every other day.

So I can't really plan too far ahead and have to call in the morning to see if they have two people on. They do schedule other maintenance, but because the 500-mile check-up can be time intensive (don't get me started!!!!!!), they say they can't schedule it. Mostly because it might take an hour or it might take five hours.

Ember · Post by **Ember** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:12 pm

Ummm, I just found out that my dealer wants to charge me $250 for the first maintenance! What do I do!?!

sotied · Post by **sotied** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:19 pm

Ember wrote:Ummm, I just found out that my dealer wants to charge me $250 for the first maintenance! What do I do!?!

Read this thread from the top and make an informed decision.

I'd ask what's included and decide whether it makes sense. Seems a little high to me, but I was the one who freaked out about them not doing everything except the oil for free...so ask the others.

siobhan · Post by **siobhan** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:32 pm

sotied...I guess you weren't aware that Patrick, Tom & the guys (and girls) are in cahoots with the Providence Visitors Bureau. We want all the folks who bought their scoots to transport over state lines to come back to little Rhody and spend some of their money in our restaurants and shops...after all, we've got one of the highest unemployment rates in the US right now, and every out-of-state penny helps keep my taxes stable

sotied · Post by **sotied** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:05 am

siobhan wrote:sotied...I guess you weren't aware that Patrick, Tom & the guys (and girls) are in cahoots with the Providence Visitors Bureau. We want all the folks who bought their scoots to transport over state lines to come back to little Rhody and spend some of their money in our restaurants and shops...after all, we've got one of the highest unemployment rates in the US right now, and every out-of-state penny helps keep my taxes stable

I reread some of manic posting on this issue and wondered how I became such a whiny little wonk.

I've talked with Patrick twice in the past couple days and finally (if the weather cooperates) I'll be dashing south to get my maintenance done tomorrow.

I will gladly spend my coin in three places in RI (NOT THE FOXY). These are Javaspeed (but don't you think I'm not bringing in my FREE COFFEE postcard tomorrow), the Pawtucket Red Sox, and at any Del's Frozen Lemonade stand.

I should get to the shop around 11:30 if you can suggest a local lunch spot near Javaspeed. I have to let the oil cool before they open up her guts and do their magic.

You're welcome to join me for lunch if you're one of the aforementioned unemployed unwashed masses. But I seem to recall that you're part of the educational establishment. Is it Brown? PC? J&W? or some other institute?

If it's Brown, and you've been there a while, I could try and name drop with you. My uncle was one of the heads of the English dept there for eons.

OK. Enough blather. They'll think I'm griping again and haul me away before my sushi gets here.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:28 am

Ember wrote:Ummm, I just found out that my dealer wants to charge me $250 for the first maintenance! What do I do!?!

Holy cow! Where is your dealer?

Are you by any chance in the Bay Area? There seems to be a maintenance and parts premium at some Bay Area shops.

Ember · Post by **Ember** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:00 pm

Yes, yes I am. There is a premium for everything here, but 50% more than everyone else seems kinda excessive...

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:14 pm

Ember wrote:Yes, yes I am. There is a premium for everything here, but 50% more than everyone else seems kinda excessive...

Yup. I think demand is way higher up there.

From what I understand, a lot of shops retain mechanics as contractors, so the dealer may not even set their own labor rates. But as I said, unfortunately, from what I've seen rates are much higher in the Bay Area. You may want to call around to some other local dealers.

sotied · Post by **sotied** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:06 pm

First service DONE!

$101.01.

Replaced spark plug, oil filter. Changed engine oil and gear oil. Test rode it. Poked around.

One hour's work at $65 an hour.

Ride down was great as was the ride back home.

Nearly four hours on the road and a nice lunch at the shop.

AND, now that I've made the journey down, as long as my maintenance needs are quickies I don't have an issue making the jaunt.

Who was that wanker who complained about this experience. He's an idiot. Oh, wait, that was me. I'm an idiot!

Nothing to see here. Move along. Excitement's over.