I remember people talking about the safety of the large windshield at some point... This is from a couple of weeks ago and even though it may not be the windshield, here is someone's story anyway.
http://www.scooterbbs.com/cgi-bin/board ... mode=all#1
safety question of the large windshield
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mlee10018
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jrsjr
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That story shook me up so much that I didn't know what to think, so I didn't post about it before.
As for the cross-wind hitting the windshield thing, in 28 years of riding, I've been hit by truly ferocious cross-winds maybe a handful of times, twice in mountains, once in a valley and twice on bridges. I'd love for somebody who's MSF trained to get on here and tell us what the official story is on how to handle such situations, but, in the meantime, here's what I've noticed...
When a powerful cross-wind hits a motorbike, I can think of two things that happen; 1) The wind tries to push the vehicle sideways in its lane, a gust blowing to the left pushes the vehicle to the left and vice versa, and 2) If you have a windshield that's attached to the headset, the windshield will act as a sail and the wind will try to wrench the handlebars from your hands.
It's not hard to imagine a scenario like this: A powerful wind gust hits your scooter from the right front at an angle, say from 1 or 2 o'clock. The wind immediately pushes your scooter left maybe 6 inches or so. The gust also whacks your windshield and twists the handlebars to the right, causing you to countersteer to the left. Okay, two forces have now conspired in worst-case scenario to push your scooter to the left. If you're on a two-lane road, you are now turning into oncoming traffic. Not good! It's easy to imagine how you might panic and try to wrench the scooter back to the right.
And this is where I would love to hear some expert advice. At that point, what I was trained to do was relax, just like you would if your scooter wandered badly on rain grooves. Try to relax your shoulders and arms and wrists, maintain a fim grip, but not a death grip, on the handlebars, and move back into your intended lane just like you would if you were changing lanes normally.
I'm aware that this advice is heck of easier to give than it is to take, much less to follow in an emergency, but the rationale I was given is that fighting the handlebars is what causes folks to over-correct. Over-correcting can cause you to get into a "back and forth" situation where you can end up losing control, in what motorcyclists refer to as a "tank-slapper."
I'm not saying that POC Renae got into a tank-slapper on the Buddy, but I note that POC Phil picked that very same Buddy up and rode it back without noticing anything unusual or untoward in its handling.
This is a pretty heavy subject for a light-hearted board like Modern Buddy, but there may come a time when it pays to have at least thought about this before. If you live where there are rain-grooved roads, you can practice, so you'll instinctively react in the event you ever do get suprised by a serious crosswind. When the road is not too busy, practice riding on the rain grooves. Pay particular attention to the transition from non-grooved pavement onto the grooved pavement. That's when you need to take a breath and loosen up your shoulder and arm muscles and wrists. Maintain a firm, but not stiff, grip on the handlebars and just flow along with the scooter. It's not going to fly out of control or anything. Depending on your tires, it may wander around a lot, but it's not out of control. That's the same riding skill you want to apply if a cross-wind tries to upset your scooter. Obviously you don't want to relax so much that you drive into oncoming traffic or anything, but, once you've practiced, you will have a feeling for what you need to do to control the situation.
P.S. This advice does not apply to extremely wide, deep grooves in the road or "abrupt transitions in road surface" where the road is being repaved. Those things are the bane of scooterists everywhere. The best advice I can give you with those is never ever let one catch you off guard. You have to actively attack those things by crossing them at the "steepest" angle you can (as close to 90 degrees as you can get) and hold the handlebar firmly when you hit them. Then... relax. If the scooter tries to wobble once you're over the obstacle, that's the time to relax and not aggravate the situation by over-correcting.
Piece of cake.
Sorry for the bandwidth on that topic.
Let's hope that Renae heals quickly.
As for the cross-wind hitting the windshield thing, in 28 years of riding, I've been hit by truly ferocious cross-winds maybe a handful of times, twice in mountains, once in a valley and twice on bridges. I'd love for somebody who's MSF trained to get on here and tell us what the official story is on how to handle such situations, but, in the meantime, here's what I've noticed...
When a powerful cross-wind hits a motorbike, I can think of two things that happen; 1) The wind tries to push the vehicle sideways in its lane, a gust blowing to the left pushes the vehicle to the left and vice versa, and 2) If you have a windshield that's attached to the headset, the windshield will act as a sail and the wind will try to wrench the handlebars from your hands.
It's not hard to imagine a scenario like this: A powerful wind gust hits your scooter from the right front at an angle, say from 1 or 2 o'clock. The wind immediately pushes your scooter left maybe 6 inches or so. The gust also whacks your windshield and twists the handlebars to the right, causing you to countersteer to the left. Okay, two forces have now conspired in worst-case scenario to push your scooter to the left. If you're on a two-lane road, you are now turning into oncoming traffic. Not good! It's easy to imagine how you might panic and try to wrench the scooter back to the right.
And this is where I would love to hear some expert advice. At that point, what I was trained to do was relax, just like you would if your scooter wandered badly on rain grooves. Try to relax your shoulders and arms and wrists, maintain a fim grip, but not a death grip, on the handlebars, and move back into your intended lane just like you would if you were changing lanes normally.
I'm aware that this advice is heck of easier to give than it is to take, much less to follow in an emergency, but the rationale I was given is that fighting the handlebars is what causes folks to over-correct. Over-correcting can cause you to get into a "back and forth" situation where you can end up losing control, in what motorcyclists refer to as a "tank-slapper."
I'm not saying that POC Renae got into a tank-slapper on the Buddy, but I note that POC Phil picked that very same Buddy up and rode it back without noticing anything unusual or untoward in its handling.
This is a pretty heavy subject for a light-hearted board like Modern Buddy, but there may come a time when it pays to have at least thought about this before. If you live where there are rain-grooved roads, you can practice, so you'll instinctively react in the event you ever do get suprised by a serious crosswind. When the road is not too busy, practice riding on the rain grooves. Pay particular attention to the transition from non-grooved pavement onto the grooved pavement. That's when you need to take a breath and loosen up your shoulder and arm muscles and wrists. Maintain a firm, but not stiff, grip on the handlebars and just flow along with the scooter. It's not going to fly out of control or anything. Depending on your tires, it may wander around a lot, but it's not out of control. That's the same riding skill you want to apply if a cross-wind tries to upset your scooter. Obviously you don't want to relax so much that you drive into oncoming traffic or anything, but, once you've practiced, you will have a feeling for what you need to do to control the situation.
P.S. This advice does not apply to extremely wide, deep grooves in the road or "abrupt transitions in road surface" where the road is being repaved. Those things are the bane of scooterists everywhere. The best advice I can give you with those is never ever let one catch you off guard. You have to actively attack those things by crossing them at the "steepest" angle you can (as close to 90 degrees as you can get) and hold the handlebar firmly when you hit them. Then... relax. If the scooter tries to wobble once you're over the obstacle, that's the time to relax and not aggravate the situation by over-correcting.
Piece of cake.
Sorry for the bandwidth on that topic.
Let's hope that Renae heals quickly.
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AxeYrCat
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Elm Creek Smith
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Keys
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Steel toed boots could only be a positive. They certainly couldnt hurt.
I have to agree with John, relaxation is the key. Just like on a dirt bike, if you "lock-up" to it and move with it, it will beat you to death and probably spit you off in a matter of minutes. IT is designed to take that kind of punishment...YOU aren't.
The key is to relax. Let the machine move under you. This is MUCH harder with the spread-out position you must assume on one of the maxi-scooters or on a cruiser. However, sitting on top, like we do on a Buddy, allows this easily. You kind of let yourself get loose in the hips...even put a little more weight on your feet...and let the scooter move under you. DO NOT get rigid in the arms and wrists and try to control it through the handlebars. Use your weight and balance. Try this is a parking lot to get the feel of it. Back and forth, even through close set cones if you can. This will also help at high speeds where quick movements that are caused by hand and arm movement can spell doom. I have ridden mine at over 65 mph with one hand on the handlebars. The problem is not in the machine, but in how we control it.
My wife regularly rides her Helix with no problems, but the first time she rode my Buddy, she went onto a 55 mph road which she rides all the time on hers. She went about 250 feet and began to wobble. Less than a half-mile down the road she pulled over and was almost in tears she was so scared. She was wobbling because she was trying to control through the handlebars the way she does on her Helix. With the small wheels and the short trail and rake (components in front-end geometry), every move is compounded into something bigger.
I have taken my Buddy down rough dirt roads...not quickly, mind you,...and found that is is easily controllable by utilizing this method.
I hope I helped a little.
--Keys
I have to agree with John, relaxation is the key. Just like on a dirt bike, if you "lock-up" to it and move with it, it will beat you to death and probably spit you off in a matter of minutes. IT is designed to take that kind of punishment...YOU aren't.
The key is to relax. Let the machine move under you. This is MUCH harder with the spread-out position you must assume on one of the maxi-scooters or on a cruiser. However, sitting on top, like we do on a Buddy, allows this easily. You kind of let yourself get loose in the hips...even put a little more weight on your feet...and let the scooter move under you. DO NOT get rigid in the arms and wrists and try to control it through the handlebars. Use your weight and balance. Try this is a parking lot to get the feel of it. Back and forth, even through close set cones if you can. This will also help at high speeds where quick movements that are caused by hand and arm movement can spell doom. I have ridden mine at over 65 mph with one hand on the handlebars. The problem is not in the machine, but in how we control it.
My wife regularly rides her Helix with no problems, but the first time she rode my Buddy, she went onto a 55 mph road which she rides all the time on hers. She went about 250 feet and began to wobble. Less than a half-mile down the road she pulled over and was almost in tears she was so scared. She was wobbling because she was trying to control through the handlebars the way she does on her Helix. With the small wheels and the short trail and rake (components in front-end geometry), every move is compounded into something bigger.
I have taken my Buddy down rough dirt roads...not quickly, mind you,...and found that is is easily controllable by utilizing this method.
I hope I helped a little.
--Keys
"Life without music would Bb"
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bwilms
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I'm with you. There is really no other way to say it.AxeYrCat wrote:I heard about this about two weeks ago, and it's pretty effing scary.
I definitely feel for Renae, and I wish her a speedy recovery...
I know those are terribly hackneyed phrases, but I honestly cannot think of anything else to say.
I emailed Renae after the crash and the initial surgery. She said things are going well. Her recovery is better than expected, according to her doc. She's got another surgery very soon.
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smorris
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I was surprised to see that so many of you knew about this on here. I heard it a couple of weeks ago as well, and elected not to post here, lest it scare people off without truly knowing the circumstances.
I know Renae and Phil a little, as I am local to POC, and they are both experienced. Phill much more so, though.
We can't know for sure what happened. I agree with keeping a light grip. That's what I do in rough conditions, either on the scoot, or in the MGA with its solid suspension and no-power steering.
That said, we've also probably all seen the wind blow in certain conditions so that it will set a stop sign whipping back and forth. I've ridden where Renae went down, and the wind coming off of the lake can sometimes be treacherous and twisting. Maybe something like this happened.
I'm glad to hear she is recovering quickly. My Dr Scholl's boots are steel toed, and I use them on rides where I'm actually riding as opposed to going somewhere like work. I imagine my Hush Puppies would wear away pretty quickly, too.
I know Renae and Phil a little, as I am local to POC, and they are both experienced. Phill much more so, though.
We can't know for sure what happened. I agree with keeping a light grip. That's what I do in rough conditions, either on the scoot, or in the MGA with its solid suspension and no-power steering.
That said, we've also probably all seen the wind blow in certain conditions so that it will set a stop sign whipping back and forth. I've ridden where Renae went down, and the wind coming off of the lake can sometimes be treacherous and twisting. Maybe something like this happened.
I'm glad to hear she is recovering quickly. My Dr Scholl's boots are steel toed, and I use them on rides where I'm actually riding as opposed to going somewhere like work. I imagine my Hush Puppies would wear away pretty quickly, too.
Steve - Avon, Ohio
The Morris Garage
2007 Suzuki Burgman 400 ____ 2006 Vespa LX150 ____ 1965 Vespa 180 SS
2002 Subaru WRX Wagon ____ 1958 MGA Roadster
The Morris Garage
2007 Suzuki Burgman 400 ____ 2006 Vespa LX150 ____ 1965 Vespa 180 SS
2002 Subaru WRX Wagon ____ 1958 MGA Roadster
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gt1000
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Truly a horrific, harrowing story. What amazes me is Phil having the presence of mind to keep himself between Renae and the car on his ass. Wow! It's impossible to guess what actually happened here and that just empahsizes the need for good gear all the time. I take short cuts from time to time, just like a lot of people, but I find myself doing it less and less with every story like this that I hear. Boots, gloves and helmet all the time!
I ride in heavy wind a lot, it's a fact of life in the Rocky Mountains. Every now and then it's bad enough to notice at scooter speeds but most of my scares have been at high speed on motorcycles. In a steady wind, you can compensate by leaning slightly into the wind while you ride. In gusts, you just need to be ready to react quickly. No death grip on your grips, stay relaxed. And remember that when you're on two wheels, you're never really going "straight". You don't feel it and most observers don't see it, but you're moving from side to side all the time. Another important safeguard is to give yourself extra space. If the wind is blowing right to left, stay to the right of the center of your lane. When you're in the twisties, remember to practice delayed apexing. It not only gives you a better view of the road ahead, it gives you more space if you hit a gust going through the curve.
I don't like windshields, especially big ones. I have no objective reason for this, in fact it's mostly looks. But big screens can act like sails or parachutes and some motorcycle screens will have speed limits, which tells me they can be unpredictable at high speeds. I don't see this being a major factor with a scooter, but if you ride at high speed in very windy places, be ready and be careful!
I ride in heavy wind a lot, it's a fact of life in the Rocky Mountains. Every now and then it's bad enough to notice at scooter speeds but most of my scares have been at high speed on motorcycles. In a steady wind, you can compensate by leaning slightly into the wind while you ride. In gusts, you just need to be ready to react quickly. No death grip on your grips, stay relaxed. And remember that when you're on two wheels, you're never really going "straight". You don't feel it and most observers don't see it, but you're moving from side to side all the time. Another important safeguard is to give yourself extra space. If the wind is blowing right to left, stay to the right of the center of your lane. When you're in the twisties, remember to practice delayed apexing. It not only gives you a better view of the road ahead, it gives you more space if you hit a gust going through the curve.
I don't like windshields, especially big ones. I have no objective reason for this, in fact it's mostly looks. But big screens can act like sails or parachutes and some motorcycle screens will have speed limits, which tells me they can be unpredictable at high speeds. I don't see this being a major factor with a scooter, but if you ride at high speed in very windy places, be ready and be careful!
Andy
2006 Buddy 125 (orange), going to a good MB home
2009 Vespa 250 GTS (black)
2012 Triumph Tiger 800 (black)
2008 Ducati Hypermotard S, traded for Tiger 800
2006 Buddy 125 (orange), going to a good MB home
2009 Vespa 250 GTS (black)
2012 Triumph Tiger 800 (black)
2008 Ducati Hypermotard S, traded for Tiger 800
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peabody99
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I was so sorry to hear about Renae. She is an experienced rider so this is all the more distrubing. Ironically she sold and installed my large screen just a couple days before the horrible accident. This may explain why Phil was a little worried when I came in a few days after the wreck and I mentioned the screen. He did not mention the details of the wreck. The winds in Cleveland can be really horrible. Esp between the buildings down town and over the bridges. Just today I got caught in a nasty cross wind over the apx 3/4 mile long Carnegie Bridge (went through the flats on my return trip!). I found reducing my speed helped me control the bike a lot better (Duh).
My question is: Do we suppose is this a freak accident...or a serious flaw in the design of the sceen on the Buddy? Outside of the obvious financial investment I have made (which doesnt really matter), I really love how the screen cuts down on chilling winds. But I am not going to kill myself as a result. I have seen a lot of tall windscreens on european bikes and they are very safety conscious there. They have years of experience using them. I am keeping my winter driving to speeds under 40 mph (as it will be all city driving) and will avoid driving days with wind warnings.
Is there any data base of safety reports of this type of thing? I think these posting boards are pretty good for gathering info, albiet the unscientific method. I cannot imagine they would sell something that is clearly dangerous(so I am deducing that they are not). I am hoping Genuine is monitering this site and will be mindful if more accidents are reported here or to the company and act ethically and swiftly if a safety issue is uncovered. Most important I hope Renae will be better soon
My question is: Do we suppose is this a freak accident...or a serious flaw in the design of the sceen on the Buddy? Outside of the obvious financial investment I have made (which doesnt really matter), I really love how the screen cuts down on chilling winds. But I am not going to kill myself as a result. I have seen a lot of tall windscreens on european bikes and they are very safety conscious there. They have years of experience using them. I am keeping my winter driving to speeds under 40 mph (as it will be all city driving) and will avoid driving days with wind warnings.
Is there any data base of safety reports of this type of thing? I think these posting boards are pretty good for gathering info, albiet the unscientific method. I cannot imagine they would sell something that is clearly dangerous(so I am deducing that they are not). I am hoping Genuine is monitering this site and will be mindful if more accidents are reported here or to the company and act ethically and swiftly if a safety issue is uncovered. Most important I hope Renae will be better soon
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Keys
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My dearly beloved, Ski, rides a Honda Helix with a built-in windshield. After the first or second time, she just flat won't ride if there's a significant wind out there. Since I never use a windshield (jus' don't like 'em), I haven't experienced that sort of buffeting, even if the Buddy is approximately 875 pounds lighter (okay, if just SEEMS like it...). I rode hers in a good stiff crosswind once and determined that indeed, the windshield seems to work just like a sail to catch the wind and the buffeting was a LOT more pronounced on her heavier Helix than on my own (at the time) Bajaj Chetak. Theoretically, the heavier weight should make the Helix more stable, not less, therefore I can only conclude that the windshield is the cause...
--Keys
--Keys
"Life without music would Bb"
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weebl
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I'm going to go with "neither" on this one, it's a case of judging when it is safe to ride your scoot, and when you should take the bus instead. Always check the weather conditions before you head out, even if it's as simple as looking at a flag pole. If the flag is more than about 45 degrees off the pole, I don't scoot.peabody99 wrote: My question is: Do we suppose is this a freak accident...or a serious flaw in the design of the sceen on the Buddy?
Are buddy windscreens inherantly dangerous? I don't think so. Is a light person riding a light scooter with a large windscreen in a strong wind dangerous? Hell yes.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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jrsjr
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That is puzzling, especially considering that the Helix's windscreen is mounted to the body of the scooter rather than the headset, as is the case with the Buddy, so the wind can't be exerting torsional force on the Helix's steering wheel. Puzzling...Keys wrote: I rode hers (Honda Helix) in a good stiff crosswind once and determined that indeed, the windshield seems to work just like a sail to catch the wind and the buffeting was a LOT more pronounced on her heavier Helix than on my own (at the time) Bajaj Chetak.
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sunshinen
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i recently traded my large screen for a cut down large screen, and it actually feels less stable. i can't figure it out. sometimes there is a crazy wobble at high speeds and sometimes it's as smooth as butter. the wind isn't even noticeably different between the two. i need to check my tire pressure. but i suspect females may have more difficulty thanks to being lighter weight. small wind variances have a bigger impact. i know i had a bad experience with the wind before i had any windscreen. slowing down makes a big difference. so i suspect this accident was probably the result of many factors. wind and road conditions change without warning. accidents happen. know your risk tolerance, know your ability, wear good gear, and hope those around you will have the sense and gall Phil had. i doubt that many people would even consider it possible to hold back a cager with a 2 wheeler, much less have the skill to stay upright while trying to do so. support and well-wishes to both of them.
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gt1000
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I wouldn't rush to any sort of judgement here. Like I said in my earlier post, from the original description it's impossible to guess the actual cause or causes of this accident. If you have a wind screen and like it and haven't experienced any problems, keep enjoying it. Sometimes bad things just happen. Experience tells us it's normally because of a number of factors coming together at the same time.
Based on the description provided in the link, my guess (and it's a pure guess) is that this accident was caused by the dramatic steering head oscillations described in the post, in other words, a tank slapper. Modern scooters and motorcycles have very steep rake on the front forks. That increases sensitivity and allows the bike to turn in more quickly and responsively, what we like to call "good handling". However, strange conditions can upset that handling and, because the front end is so responsive, the handlebars can start swinging violently back and forth, slapping the tank, so to speak. I've never experienced a tank slapper but I have felt pretty violent oscillations on bikes, mainly because of poor pavement conditions. I've never felt this type of thing because of wind, but that's just me.
I have no idea what happened to Renae. However, the last time I felt this type of thing was when I was riding at low speed over some slightly heaved pavement with 3 or 4 railroad tracks crossing. I was going maybe 30 at the most and my steering head wobbled back and forth. No drama at all, but if I only had one hand on the bars for some reason, if would've been one of those pucker moments.
Based on the description provided in the link, my guess (and it's a pure guess) is that this accident was caused by the dramatic steering head oscillations described in the post, in other words, a tank slapper. Modern scooters and motorcycles have very steep rake on the front forks. That increases sensitivity and allows the bike to turn in more quickly and responsively, what we like to call "good handling". However, strange conditions can upset that handling and, because the front end is so responsive, the handlebars can start swinging violently back and forth, slapping the tank, so to speak. I've never experienced a tank slapper but I have felt pretty violent oscillations on bikes, mainly because of poor pavement conditions. I've never felt this type of thing because of wind, but that's just me.
I have no idea what happened to Renae. However, the last time I felt this type of thing was when I was riding at low speed over some slightly heaved pavement with 3 or 4 railroad tracks crossing. I was going maybe 30 at the most and my steering head wobbled back and forth. No drama at all, but if I only had one hand on the bars for some reason, if would've been one of those pucker moments.
Andy
2006 Buddy 125 (orange), going to a good MB home
2009 Vespa 250 GTS (black)
2012 Triumph Tiger 800 (black)
2008 Ducati Hypermotard S, traded for Tiger 800
2006 Buddy 125 (orange), going to a good MB home
2009 Vespa 250 GTS (black)
2012 Triumph Tiger 800 (black)
2008 Ducati Hypermotard S, traded for Tiger 800
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Coach B
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I have the large windscreen on my orange Buddy, and I can feel a difference when the wind is blowing. Last Sunday I scooted to my daughter's house, about 20 miles, and there were isolated thunder storms which buffeted me with wind and heavy gusts. Because of this thread, I expected problems, but my Buddy handled it fine. A loose grip is the way to go.
I did have one supprise when the wind was calm. I was coming up to a stop sign, but when I reached for both brakes I hit an unseen bump in the road. Both of my hands almost went off of the handle bars. Freaked me out. Luckily, I was able to get it under control and stop in time.
Love and speedy recovery to Renae.
I did have one supprise when the wind was calm. I was coming up to a stop sign, but when I reached for both brakes I hit an unseen bump in the road. Both of my hands almost went off of the handle bars. Freaked me out. Luckily, I was able to get it under control and stop in time.
Love and speedy recovery to Renae.
The Coach Scoots
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Elm Creek Smith
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I just got an email from Renae saying that she was doing much better. She's certain the wreck was directly attributable to the large windshield, and recommending one of the smaller ones. Since I was leaning towards the small windshield already, I'm good with that.
ECS
ECS
Yes, that is my scooter.
Yes, I wear a helmet and a FIRSTGEAR armored jacket.
No, I'm not embarrassed to be seen riding it.
Yes, that is an NRA sticker on the fender.
"I aim to misbehave."
Yes, I wear a helmet and a FIRSTGEAR armored jacket.
No, I'm not embarrassed to be seen riding it.
Yes, that is an NRA sticker on the fender.
"I aim to misbehave."
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Keys
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John, I think that the Helix catches crosswinds. It doesn't seem to be much of an issue if it's a headwind, but from any oblique angle, the scooter pretty much gets thrown around. Ski has made me come get her at work in the car because there was too much wind.
--Keys
P.S. Of course I rode the Helix home....
--Keys
P.S. Of course I rode the Helix home....
"Life without music would Bb"