Avoid PRC Scooters-Still

[pcbikedude]

I had a chance to take a close look at some "fresh off the boat" scooters from mainland China.

I was hoping with the new crop of scooters coming in at least one manufacturer would step out and shine.

The brand was BMS from the same people who brought us Lance, Tank, etc. scooters.

Compared to the Buddy, Kymco, Honda, and Yamaha scooters, the plastics were very thin and very brittle feeling. There are holes for accessories that are not on the bike. For example: There was a bracket for a brake line for a rear drum brake screwed on the chassis. However, it was unused because the bike had a rear disk brake.

The model I was looked at had an alarm and remote start. It was already demonstrating electrical problems. The scooter was just put together the day I was there. The scooter would not remote start from the FOB button and a brake light was on even though no one was touching a brake lever.

The scooter also has front "ABS" brakes which consists of a pressure release valve which most mechanics say are dangerous.

It was difficult to place the scooter on it's center stand. Fit and finish were poor.

The warranty: 30 days parts and labor.

What was odd was the mechanic. I think he recognized me from a rally. I made eye contact with him and his eyes were saying, "Don't buy this scooter."

Conclusion: Save your money and buy a scooter with a name you can trust. There isn't a ML China scooter worth owning except for the Piaggio Fly and Kymco Agility. Buying a Chinese scooter is like buying something from a 99 cents store. Sure it looks like a bargain but it won't last very long.

[R.McLeod]

We've got a dealership here in Ft Worth that is re-branding these Chinese scooters as Sundance Scooters http://www.sundancescooters.com/home.htm
He's charging top dollar for them because of the boom in sales and I feel sorry for the people who get suckered into buying them (luckily I've yet to see a single person who owns one, yet I have seen several Buddys). The dealer is a real high-pressure salesman and kind of a prick too. I test drove his Tango and Route 66, but he basically refused to let my wife test drive one. Neither fell apart while riding, but I honestly don't imagine they would last longer than a few hundred miles (max) before it would leave you stranded. It took about five minutes of investigating these scooters online before I found numerous warnings of their terrible quality. Which actually led me to this forum, thank god for all of your collected hatred of cheap Chinese scooters. Now I tell any friends looking for a new ride to stay clear of his shop and these scooters.

[jfrost2]

Even 10 years from now, PGo, Piaggio, and all big wig brands that makes good bikes will be better quality than china's knock offs. They care about profit and selling these bikes, not about quality.

[skullmechanic]

There is a Yamaha dealership with a bunch of those Chinese POSs sitting right out front for sale. They bring them in at night, so I assume they are selling them. It's just a quick buck for the dealer.

Go Genuine! I love my Bud'!

[dorian]

While I agree that the Buddy is in most ways superior to the "cheap Chinese scooters" you might want to be careful about over-generalizing. I personally own a cheap Chinese Lance Milan and have had no issues with it, but admittedly I'm holding my breath waiting for the first problem.

I love to tinker on things and thats why I have the cheap scooter. The engine is like a lawn mower engine, I could break it down to a pile of cast metal and bolts, and then completely rebuild it before the day is over. The ABS indeed is a joke, remote start and alarm systems are gadgets designed to break, and the fit and finish is reminiscent of the Harley AMF days.

But for someone on a low budget, $1800.00 (including tax, title, and registration) is a darn good deal as long as you are somewhat handy with a wrench or are willing to learn. The support mechanism that has gradually built in place via the internet is actually pretty awesome. scootdawg.com is one Chinese scoot owners haven with an abundance of technical assistance from its members.

Yeah, they are still lacking top-notch quality control. But you might want to take a look at this article that questions the long term affect of scoffing the "cheap Chinese scoots." The analogy to Dell is dead on. http://www.motorscootershopper.com/chinese-scooters.asp

[KCScooterDude]

My first bike was a Tank 150 Touring and it never gave me a problem. It was a lot of fun to ride and it gave me a lot of practice riding a scooter.

Look, you can hate all you want, but for the money, they do the job. It's unreasonable to hold a bike that costs $900 to $1,400 up to one that costs twice as much. Like a lot of things in our society, they are built to be disposable. They'll give you 5,000 to 10,000 km, then you'll have to wrench on them and be inventive to keep it on the road.

So, your post is basically like somebody comparing a Kia Rio to a Subaru Impreza. "Gee, stay away from the Rio - it's not as well built as the Impreza." Well, it's not. It also costs $7,000 less.

My concern is that there are a lot of people out there that don't have the money (or the need) to drop $3K on a scooter. One of the Chinese scooters (and yes, some are better than others) might be the best option for them. They might buy one of these cheaper Chinese bikes, ride them a little, then discover that 1) I really like scooters and want to make and investment, change my lifestyle a bit and upgrade or 2) it's not for me, stick it in the back of the garage or put it on Craigslist.

At the end of the day, I don't think it's productive to lump all the Chinese bikes together and warn everyone away from them. People are smart enough to know the difference between a $1,500, $3,000 and $6,000 bike.

Anyway, I'm one person at least who wouldn't be riding around on a Genuine scooter (I have a Blur) and shopping for my next ride (Piaggio BV500 or X9 - at least this week) if I hadn't first purchased a Chinese scooter.

It will be interesting to see if this discussion translates to the autos China will start sending over in the next two to three years.

[KCScooterDude]

While I agree that the Buddy is in most ways superior to the "cheap Chinese scooters" you might want to be careful about over-generalizing. I personally own a cheap Chinese Lance Milan and have had no issues with it, but admittedly I'm holding my breath waiting for the first problem.

I love to tinker on things and thats why I have the cheap scooter. The engine is like a lawn mower engine, I could break it down to a pile of cast metal and bolts, and then completely rebuild it before the day is over. The ABS indeed is a joke, remote start and alarm systems are gadgets designed to break, and the fit and finish is reminiscent of the Harley AMF days.

But for someone on a low budget, $1800.00 (including tax, title, and registration) is a darn good deal as long as you are somewhat handy with a wrench or are willing to learn. The support mechanism that has gradually built in place via the internet is actually pretty awesome. scootdawg.com is one Chinese scoot owners haven with an abundance of technical assistance from its members.

Yeah, they are still lacking top-notch quality control. But you might want to take a look at this article that questions the long term affect of scoffing the "cheap Chinese scoots." The analogy to Dell is dead on. http://www.motorscootershopper.com/chinese-scooters.asp

Amen, Dorian

[ericalm]

While I agree that the Buddy is in most ways superior to the "cheap Chinese scooters" you might want to be careful about over-generalizing. I personally own a cheap Chinese Lance Milan and have had no issues with it, but admittedly I'm holding my breath waiting for the first problem.

I love to tinker on things and thats why I have the cheap scooter. The engine is like a lawn mower engine, I could break it down to a pile of cast metal and bolts, and then completely rebuild it before the day is over. The ABS indeed is a joke, remote start and alarm systems are gadgets designed to break, and the fit and finish is reminiscent of the Harley AMF days.

But for someone on a low budget, $1800.00 (including tax, title, and registration) is a darn good deal as long as you are somewhat handy with a wrench or are willing to learn. The support mechanism that has gradually built in place via the internet is actually pretty awesome. scootdawg.com is one Chinese scoot owners haven with an abundance of technical assistance from its members.

Yeah, they are still lacking top-notch quality control. But you might want to take a look at this article that questions the long term affect of scoffing the "cheap Chinese scoots." The analogy to Dell is dead on. http://www.motorscootershopper.com/chinese-scooters.asp

I agree with this… to an extent. I do think there's a lot of over-generalizing and that categorical dismissal of PRC-made scooters is essentially stereotyping and may be off the mark. There are some crappy Taiwanese scoots and I'd hate to see anyone judge them all based solely on those. Problem being that at this point, the quality and durability of most of the Chinese scooters in question is not close to more expensive (but still relatively cheap) Taiwanese models.

While these do allow new owners to enter the market at a lower price point, will they end up spending the price difference in parts, maintenance etc. by the time they put 10K or more on the odometer? While they may appeal to the tinkerers and people willing to search out parts and maintenance, their overwhelming appeal is to newbies just entering the scooter market and looking for a cheap and easy ride.

The Dell comparison may fit when discussing the marketing of the products, but it differs in that Dell was offering a product nearly identical to others on the market. If or when the PRC scooters improve in quality, the comparison might be more apt. In the end, though, they may at best be the Hyundai of scooters.

So why are the Chinese scooters universally slagged? A few reasons off the top of my head:
1. Scooter snobbery. Regardless of quality, there will always be those who resist the PRC made scoots.
2. Quality and reliability is not comparable to more reputable makes.
3. Identical scooters are sold with many different badges. Makes it hard to say that model X is no good but model Y is okay.
4. Many people have been burned by bad business practices by those selling these scooters. These appeal to "dealers" looking to turn quick profits by unloading a bunch of cheap scooters for a decent profit, then not supporting the warranty, etc.

[illnoise]

KC, you make a good point, and I do think it's unfair to be completely dismissive, but there is a reason the 'dell vs. apple' or 'kia vs. subaru' arguments don't hold up, and that's that the dell and kia can perform their expected tasks safely and reliably, and they are very transparent companies, accountable for the quality of their products.

A good number of chinese scooters are just flat-out dangerous (falsified DOT/EPA documentation, those sickeningly unsafe "ABS" brakes, glass pistons, cheap tires, bad handling, dangerous wiring and cheap fuel lines, etc.) On top of that, many, MANY dealers are in the biz for a quick buck and don't support their products. It's not a quality issue so much as an ethical/safety issue. If Kia or Dell sold unsafe or illegal products, people would rip them apart too. People expect a difference in quality proportional to the difference in price, but I would argue that even if a chinese scooter is "half as good" as a Genuine, that puts it on the edge of roadworthiness, and it's not worth the risk. If there was another company that was half the price of Dell, but it had a reputation for crapping out after six months 30% of the time, and occasionally caught on fire, would you buy one?

And sadly, even with the "good," legit chinese brands, it's still a bit of a crapshoot. Baron is a good example of a fairly big importer that strived for the appearance of professionalism and set out to be better than all the no-names. Lev fought for respectability for a few years, complaining that everyone was ganging up on him and not giving him a fair chance, then, at the first sign of bigger bucks, he abandoned his entire business and all his customers, (even deleting his existing customer support database) to go work for CFmoto, who have questionable ethics themselves.

You're right, it's unfair to lump everyone together. It's just that, even as an "expert" who's been scootering for a long time, it's hard to know what brands are good and which are bad, especially with all the rebadging and sneakiness going on. Unlike automobiles and computers, the manufacturing/homologation/importing/sales/support variables are all bigger wild cards with scooters, and with each step trying to cut corners, it's hard to trust any Chinese scooters, even the most open-minded person tends to develop a pretty serious aversion to them.

[pcbikedude]

I wasn't trying to over generalize. I was honestly looking for a scooter that my wife could ride for a year and be happy.

We looked at all the scooters that this dealer had and walked out. Reason #1) 30 day warranty - The manufacturer and dealer do not have confidence in their own product to warrant it longer. #2)Price was not that far from a better scooter. The price was $1599 for a 150cc Vespa LX clone. Just to wait a little longer, Kymco Agility 125 is $1999 and Kymco Super 8 150cc is $2299 and the Buddy is just a bit more and are far superior. #3) The cheap sounding engine and ill fitting cheap body work. But it wouldn't be a bad rat bike.

One of the scooter was an obvious death trap. It would be very hard to handle.

I've yet to find one PRC bike that is close to the quality and performance of a bike from Taiwan.

[emoboy44]

what about ventos?

[dorian]

I wasn't trying to over generalize. I was honestly looking for a scooter that my wife could ride for a year and be happy.

Yeah, personally I know you weren't trying to over generalize. But I read your title for the topic and couldn't help but read more into it than was intended. Its like saying all GY6 engines are alike.

I've ridden a Lance Milan from San Francisco to San Luis Obispo and back, and never had to break out the tool kit. Thats reliable enough for me. And the brakes worked just fine.

But I bought the Buddy so my wife could ride something more reliable... its a perception thing. Isn't that odd how perception and experience are so misaligned?

[Jrman]

My neighbor purchased the Lance Milan for his son for school. The scooter had about 200 miles on it and the floor board was already coming off. He did not seem to care but I sure as hell would not be happy with a 2 week old scooters crappy fit and finish. Interestingly, I also asked my Genuine dealer about the Lance Milan and he said a couple of interesting things... 1: he knows the local dealer and that dealer said he has had a lot of problems with the Lance. 2: my dealer wont work on the Lance because of the parts issue and the unreliable workmanship.

Not picking on the Lance.. it is just the one scooter made in China that I am familiar with and have inquired about.

[jfrost2]

My dealer says once in a while they get a guy who bought a chinese bike and needs parts for it, but they refuse to do anything since they'd be looking in the same places for parts that end up leading to nowhere.

Alot of times people sell PRC bikes for profit, not quality and service. Once it's out of the door, it never comes back for service or anything. There are some good bikes that will run for a while, but they just dont run like a quality built bike (PGO, vespa, yamaha, honda).

[KCScooterDude]

KC, you make a good point, and I do think it's unfair to be completely dismissive, but there is a reason the 'dell vs. apple' or 'kia vs. subaru' arguments don't hold up, and that's that the dell and kia can perform their expected tasks safely and reliably, and they are very transparent companies, accountable for the quality of their products.

A good number of chinese scooters are just flat-out dangerous (falsified DOT/EPA documentation, those sickeningly unsafe "ABS" brakes, glass pistons, cheap tires, bad handling, dangerous wiring and cheap fuel lines, etc.) On top of that, many, MANY dealers are in the biz for a quick buck and don't support their products. It's not a quality issue so much as an ethical/safety issue. If Kia or Dell sold unsafe or illegal products, people would rip them apart too. People expect a difference in quality proportional to the difference in price, but I would argue that even if a chinese scooter is "half as good" as a Genuine, that puts it on the edge of roadworthiness, and it's not worth the risk. If there was another company that was half the price of Dell, but it had a reputation for crapping out after six months 30% of the time, and occasionally caught on fire, would you buy one?

And sadly, even with the "good," legit chinese brands, it's still a bit of a crapshoot. Baron is a good example of a fairly big importer that strived for the appearance of professionalism and set out to be better than all the no-names. Lev fought for respectability for a few years, complaining that everyone was ganging up on him and not giving him a fair chance, then, at the first sign of bigger bucks, he abandoned his entire business and all his customers, (even deleting his existing customer support database) to go work for CFmoto, who have questionable ethics themselves.

You're right, it's unfair to lump everyone together. It's just that, even as an "expert" who's been scootering for a long time, it's hard to know what brands are good and which are bad, especially with all the rebadging and sneakiness going on. Unlike automobiles and computers, the manufacturing/homologation/importing/sales/support variables are all bigger wild cards with scooters, and with each step trying to cut corners, it's hard to trust any Chinese scooters, even the most open-minded person tends to develop a pretty serious aversion to them.

My experience with Tank was that it was a good product. Not the quality of Genuine, but a good product.

Obviously, if something has forged documentation, that's a problem. I also know that several years ago somebody in California was importing scooters that didn't meet DOT certification standards and some buyers got screwed. A lot of these scooters were destroyed according to an article in Scoot Quarterly.

I write in response to these "Chinese scooters are all bad" threads because most of the posters in these threads start their posts off with "I had a friend who...", "I had a dealer tell me....," "I was looking at this Chinese scooter..." The ultimate are the posts from Vespa owners who rail against Chinese crap, then sign off by saying they will be at the rally this weekend if they can get one of their bikes on the road. Reliability? Parts availability? Sounds like the Chinese aren't the only ones who have problems. And, I'd maintain that a lot of these Chinese scooters aren't much harder to keep on the road than a Harley.

Anyway, I've owned one, and my experience was that it wasn't a bad ride. Never gave me a problem, was about 75 percent as fun as my Blur and got me involved in scootering at a low cost.

I have faith in the people that post here that warranty or not, they aren't going to buy something off the Internet and try to get it on the road unless they're pretty good at wrenching on the things themselves. Which brings up a point - These Chinese bikes are good for guys (and gals) who like to mod their rides.

[ericalm]

The ultimate are the posts from Vespa owners who rail against Chinese crap, then sign off by saying they will be at the rally this weekend if they can get one of their bikes on the road.

I'm sure you mean the vintage Vespas. Modern Vespas are at least as reliable as Buddys…

[illnoise]

The ultimate are the posts from Vespa owners who rail against Chinese crap, then sign off by saying they will be at the rally this weekend if they can get one of their bikes on the road. Reliability? Parts availability? Sounds like the Chinese aren't the only ones who have problems.

Well, any 30+-year-old vehicle is going to require vigilant attention. Parts are surprisingly easy to find for most vintage Vespas, it's more a question of getting around to fixing them. Modern Vespa (and Buddies, to be honest) don't have a great parts supply, it's sad to say. You're right about parts, though with the variety of GY6 clones, it's hard to know if you're getting the right part, or how good the quality is.

I have faith in the people that post here that warranty or not, they aren't going to buy something off the Internet and try to get it on the road unless they're pretty good at wrenching on the things themselves. Which brings up a point - These Chinese bikes are good for guys (and gals) who like to mod their rides.

Yeah, I think hopped-up cheapo bikes are going to be what gets people into scootering over the lean years that are ahead after this boom ends. And yes, if you know what you're getting into, it might be worth the risk, but that's the biggest problem, is these people that are flooding into these johnny-come-lately shops and dropping a grand or two on a bike (or worse yet, ordering one on the internet, which isn't even legal a lot of places) just don't know what they're getting into, and they're unaware that for really, not much more money, they could be getting a much more bulletproof bike.

[jfrost2]

I look at the rally pictures on scoot.net to see bikes that go, many of them have 1-2 chinese bikes.

[ScooterDave]

The ultimate are the posts from Vespa owners who rail against Chinese crap, then sign off by saying they will be at the rally this weekend if they can get one of their bikes on the road.

I'm sure you mean the vintage Vespas. Modern Vespas are at least as reliable as Buddys…

Yeah, my LX150 has never left me stranded. Bwahaha.

[KCScooterDude]

Okay, so I had to get in a poke at the Vespa people. Maybe a bit unfair. Of course, I'm lusting after an X9, even though I'm concerned about future parts availability.

My experience with the Tank was helped by the fact that we have a dealer here who services them and I took it in for regular service. He was honest enough to import a few extra bikes to use as parts bikes.

BTW, I was in Yankton, SD, over the weekend and in the span of an hour I saw 10 TNG scooters, most if not all were under 50cc. To me, that says a lot about how pervasive scooters are becoming. That's a rate of 1 per 1,000 residents, and that was only for the hour that I was counting. I saw them all weekend. I found out there was a dealer in town who sells and services them.

For a lot of those people, that's probably all they will need, but I'm sure a few will really get into scootering and upgrade to a quality brand.