Waiting and waiting at traffic lights ...

kmtscoot · Post by **kmtscoot** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:31 pm

I see in Scooterworks' latest flyer, on the back page, a $10 device for tripping the traffic signals, since our scooters don't have enough ferrous material in them to trigger the inductive loop in the roadway. So we end up sitting there forever waiting for a green light. I've certainly had that problem, as I'm sure many others have also. Has anybody in the forum had experience with these devices or know if they actually work? If they do, I'd gladly spend ten bucks for one.

MrNatural · Post by **MrNatural** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:21 am

Welcome! And that's a good question. I think if you use the Search feature you'll find a discussion on that very topic.

kmtscoot · Post by **kmtscoot** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:32 am

Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a try!

MrNatural · Post by **MrNatural** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:29 am

I guess I could have volunteered that the consensus was those things (magnets?) didn't work. Huge debate, as usual, tho!!!
However, check your local/state laws. Here in MN we have what's called the Stop and Go, or Red LIght / Green Light law for cycles. If the light hasn't tripped and you've waited a reasonable length of time and it's safe, you can proceed thru a red light.

kmtscoot · Post by **kmtscoot** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:38 pm

Yeah, they're probably one of those things that are too goo to be true. Over the years there have been lots of motor vehicle accessories involving magnets, everything from spark boosters to magic fuel economy enhancers, none of which actually worked as claimed. Just for kicks I might experiment with a magnet though. I don't know just what it would take to trip one of those inductive loops with one. They normally sense a big hunk of ferrous material (iron) passing over them but it is conceivable that a moving magnet might do it, if the magnet is strong enough. I have some pretty strong magnets but I suspect they'd have to be moving very close to the pavement to trip the loop.

I checked the motor vehicle laws for my town and state. It looks like MT is not as enlightened at MN in this regard. No provision for scooter/cycle drivers to proceed through a red light after waiting until it is safe. Something to write my legislators about maybe. I did discover one interesting thing though. Montana has no helmet law (which I already knew), however my city (Kalispell) DOES have a helmet law. Not an issue to me since I always wear a helmet but interesting nonetheless.

kneil67@yahoo.com · Post by **kneil67@yahoo.com** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:56 pm

i had that problem with lights as well but i found if you put the tire on the metal strip in the road it will work just look for the lines in the road

MrNatural · Post by **MrNatural** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:07 pm

I've also heard holding your kickstand (center stand) down and dragging it a few ft will trigger the light. I've tried that...carefully...lightly touching the kickstand to the street and moving forward about 3-4 ft. Can't attest that it works or not.
Most places it's legal to make a U-turn so you can turn right down the street and make a U-turn and come back. Of course you'll be foiled if there's a median... : ) If there's NO traffic people have said they've actually jumped off, ran over to the pedestrian button, pushed it and run back to the scooter...... Love that one!!!

Scooter Hoot · Post by **Scooter Hoot** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:44 pm

Yah, I don't usually have a problem as long as I make sure to drive up directly over the seam in the road where they put those sensors. Every now and then it doesn't trigger for a cycle or two though. I'm inclined to think the magnets are more placebo effect than anything else though.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:08 pm

I've tried just about every trick in the book. I've found nothing works consistantly in my experience other than a car behind you.

Apiarist · Post by **Apiarist** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:33 am

what follows may only be partially related but i have been waiting forever to tell this here.

in early summer on a sunday morning i was on my way to a left turn lane that needs tripped by a vehicle. luckily for me the pickup behind me followed me into the lane. when the lights turned green, i turned left and the pickup switched into the lane to the right to go straight through. i guess he/she just followed me in to trip the light for me. now that is awesome, no?

now back to your regularly scheduled topic. thanks

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:49 am

There are a few different issues here, but the main one is that there are different types of sensors with different sensitivities. So any solution that may work for one person, may not for others.

I can usually trip a sensor by parking over the circular cut out in the asphalt and tapping my center stand in it. This doesn't work at all at a could intersections, which may actually just be on timers now.

Until recently, every report I'd read claimed magnets didn't work at all. But there have been a few newer reports of people claiming success. These are still outnumbered by those who say they don't work, so who's to know? They could work very well for some people in some locales.

kmtscoot · Post by **kmtscoot** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:06 pm

After posting this subject, I tried doing some on-line research. There is an interesting article at wikiHow.

http://www.wikihow.com/Trigger-Green-Traffic-Lights

They describe how different sensor patterns in the roadway affect how the lights are triggered. I had thought all the sensors were just a square loop of wire in the pavement. But it turns out there are also side-by-side loops, figure eight loops and diagonal loops .. all with their own unique properties for tripping them.

I took apart a defunct hard drive and will try out the two (very strong) magnets from it. Also I want to try the kickstand method and others. The kickstand method makes sense because it moves ferrous material closer to the center plane of the loop. In that position it will have more effect on the inductance of the loop.

Leeroy Jenkins · Post by **Leeroy Jenkins** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:15 pm

we just run reds in TN.

Motorcyclists can run red lights July 1
2003-06-07
The Associated Press

KNOXVILLE -- Beginning July 1, Tennessee motorcyclists can legally run red lights -- if they stop first and ``exercise due care'' -- under a bill signed into law by Gov. Phil Bredesen.

Motorcyclists had complained they were forced to wait excessive periods of time at stop lights because sensors that control the lights did not recognize motorcycles, which are now made mostly of aluminum and fiberglass, not metal.

For Nashville area resident and motorcyclist Steve Lundwall, the law can't begin too soon.

``Sometimes, I put down the kickstand and just wait (at a stoplight),'' said Lundwall, a business analyst in Nashville and state director of Concerned Motorcyclists of Tennessee.

His group helped push the bill through the Legislature.

The new law isn't as popular with the state's law enforcement and transportation community, who say it will be difficult to enforce.

``It almost takes it out of our hands to write a ticket for motorcycles running a red light,'' said Lt. Bob Lyons of Nashville's Traffic Division. ``How do we know if he's been sitting there or not?''

Sgt. Jeff Keeter, a motorcycle officer in Nashville for six years, said he's felt the frustration of being stuck at red lights but thinks the law may cause accidents.

``We'll have motorcycles trying to cross six lanes. ... Working traffic collisions, I don't have much confidence in drivers or riders.

``I can't believe this was even considered.''

The governor signed the bill because ``ultimately, the research did not show an increased safety risk,'' Bredesen spokeswoman Lydia Lenker said.

At least one other state, Minnesota, has passed a similar law, the model for Tennessee's statute, said Wayne Shaub of Brentwood, legislative chairman for Concerned Motorcyclists of Tennessee.

Bill Moore, chief engineer with the Tennessee Department of Transportation, earlier told a Senate committee there could be safety concerns. The Senate passed the bill 28-1 last month.

``We don't want to see anyone injured or killed. We don't have the greatest safety record in Tennessee, and we don't think this would improve it,'' Moore said. ``They're trading convenience for some safety issues.''

In 2000, there were 1,751 accidents involving motorcycles, with 65 fatalities. Fatalities could include pedestrians or motorists involved in the crash, Moore said.

Tennessee Department of Transportation did not take an official position on the bill and has not done in-depth research on it, TDOT Commissioner Gerald Nicely said.

Some senators, concerned the measure would give motorcyclists license to run red lights, added an amendment to tighten the law. It says bikers cannot use the law as a defense to run any red light they want by saying they believed the light was controlled by sensors that did not recognize their motorcycles.

Sen. Bill Clabough, R-Maryville, sponsored the bill.

Vic · Post by **Vic** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:24 pm

"Trading convenience for safety" indeed! In their opinion making me sit there and wait until some car happens to show up and trigger the light is convenience!

That is just stupid. I have an intersection that is on my way to work, fortunately most of the time when I am at the intersection there are cars that trigger the light for me. The cross road is a two lane highway. In Ohio, I don't think we have any laws that address what I am supposed to do in this situation. If I am going to be approaching the intersection at a time that I doubt there will be enough traffic to trigger the light for me, I end up having to take a route that adds about 10 minutes. HOWEVER, if I am approaching the light at a time that I know the 2 lane highway is going to be fairly empty, I just go ahead and carefully run the light.

This is not a matter of "convenience" and there are some intersections in less safe areas that I am certain a woman being held captive by a traffic light having to wait on some good samaritan car to come and trip the light for her would be far more at risk than if she just ran the light.

Also, what about the fact that intersections are some of the most dangerous places, and a person on a bike is literally a sitting duck?

I think these politicians that are so concerned about safety should have to stop at every single light they come to, step out of their vehicles and stand in the middle of the road while they wait for another vehicle to come up behind them. I think they would be changing their minds about what is safe and what is not safe.

-v

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:05 am

"Since I'm a law-abiding citizen and would never think of running a red light, I'm sitting here at a red stop light and typing this comment in on my cell phone (I'm not moving, so I guess this is legal). This area is rural with very few cars, so I've been sitting here waiting for the light to change for the last 17 hours. I've already pee'd in my pants because I haven't been able to move and I'm getting kind of hungry. I think I hear a pack of coyotes coming my way...."

I guess some legislators expect us to actually do this because it's "for the public safety". NOT!

Debonair_Rider · Post by **Debonair_Rider** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:40 am

I always make sure I pull all the way up at intersections so the car behind me is right over the sensor that makes the lights change.

Nothing else has gotten the job done better.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:45 am

Debonair_Rider wrote:I always make sure I pull all the way up at intersections so the car behind me is right over the sensor that makes the lights change.

Nothing else has gotten the job done better.

That works IF you are in a populated area. In some of the areas I've ridden, I might wait 15 minutes for a cage to happen along. Of course, no car traffic = no cops (generally, unless they are very bored) ... so that makes it very easy to run the light.

Rob

JeffersonJ · Post by **JeffersonJ** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:56 pm

Leeroy Jenkins wrote:we just run reds in TN.

Motorcyclists can run red lights July 1
2003-06-07
The Associated Press

KNOXVILLE -- Beginning July 1, Tennessee motorcyclists can legally run red lights -- if they stop first and ``exercise due care'' -- under a bill signed into law by Gov. Phil Bredesen.

Motorcyclists had complained they were forced to wait excessive periods of time at stop lights because sensors that control the lights did not recognize motorcycles, which are now made mostly of aluminum and fiberglass, not metal.

Heh, I like that last sentence - "made mostly of aluminum and fiberglass, not metal." Typical journalistic ignorance (no offense meant, my girlfriend is a journalist).

olhogrider · Post by **olhogrider** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:45 pm

JeffersonJ wrote: made mostly of aluminum and fiberglass, not metal.

Like the people who say "is it battery or electric".

ScooterKing · Post by **ScooterKing** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:31 am

babblefish wrote:"Since I'm a law-abiding citizen and would never think of running a red light, I'm sitting here at a red stop light and typing this comment in on my cell phone (I'm not moving, so I guess this is legal). This area is rural with very few cars, so I've been sitting here waiting for the light to change for the last 17 hours. I've already pee'd in my pants because I haven't been able to move and I'm getting kind of hungry. I think I hear a pack of coyotes coming my way...."

I guess some legislators expect us to actually do this because it's "for the public safety". NOT!

LOL. Make sure you don't get a ticket for texting while driving

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:51 pm

Don't forget the main reason to have an accessory outlet on a Buddy 50 ... to plug in your radar detector!

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:42 pm

CA has apparently passed a state law requiring that all new and updated traffic sensors be able to detect all street-legal vehicles, including MCs and scooters. This is going to be implemented over time; I suspect due to budgets it won't happen anytime soon. Still, it's a step in the right direction.

schlagle · Post by **schlagle** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:38 am

My MSF teacher told me that in CA it was lagal to run them after two full cycles (every other directions goes twice) had passed and you had not gotten the green light.

I have scoured the vehicle code and could find no such law so I'm suspicious of the legality of that maneuver but thought I'd pass it on.

Personally I just run 'em if I know for sure I'm going to be there a while. If I get stopped I'll plead my case (very politely) and see what happens. I'll post here if I ever get dinged. Amazing that I haven't yet actually.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:16 am

schlagle wrote:My MSF teacher told me that in CA it was lagal to run them after two full cycles (every other directions goes twice) had passed and you had not gotten the green light.

I have scoured the vehicle code and could find no such law so I'm suspicious of the legality of that maneuver but thought I'd pass it on.

I've heard that too, but can't find it either.

Here's the well-intentioned law I mentioned above, which sounds like it'll never actually be implemented:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21450_5.htm

Traffic-Actuated Signals: Detection of Motorcycles and Bicycles

21450. (a) A traffic-actuated signal is an official traffic control signal, as specified in Section 445, that displays one or more of its indications in response to the presence of traffic detected by mechanical, visual, electrical, or other means.
(b) Upon the first placement of a traffic-actuated signal or replacement of the loop detector of a traffic-actuated signal, the traffic-actuated signal shall, to the extent feasible and in conformance with professional traffic engineering practice, be installed and maintained so as to detect lawful bicycle or motorcycle traffic on the roadway.

(c) Cities, counties, and cities and counties shall not be required to comply with the provisions contained in subdivision (b) until the Department of Transportation, in consultation with these entities, has established uniform standards, specifications, and guidelines for the detection of bicycles and motorcycles by traffic-actuated signals and related signal timing.

(d) This section shall remain in effect only until January 1, 2018, and as of that date is repealed, unless a later enacted statute, that is enacted before January 1, 2018, deletes or extends that date.

Added and repealed Sec. 2, Ch. 337, Stats. 2007. Effective January 1, 2008. Repeal operative January 1, 2018.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:27 am

So will the Dept. of Sanitation be tasked with removing the skeletal remains of scooterists who have died waiting for a light change?