Buddy vs. Fly

[hillbillybear]

As with my last posting, I'm willing to bet this has been on here before. Having never owned a Buddy or a scooter of any type, other than a Honda Express in the late '70's, I'd like to hear what you guys think of this review. I noted a couple of inconsistencies just by browsing such as the Buddy seat height and the gas tank size. Any other responses????
http://dealers.piaggiousa.com/ExtranetD ... bruary.pdf

[hillbillybear]

Should have looked around a bit better. This appears to be kinda like a comparison between Toyota and Nissan. Or two playmates. I've found a bunch of info about comparisons between Buddy and Fly. From what I've read, it just depends on what ya want. But the comparison put out by Piaggio appears to be somewhat bogus. To bad. I like the reviews from just gotta scoot. He appears to be unbiased. The manufacturers should be quiet. It makes them look really stupid when they try to expand on the virtues of their product, especially when they compare to a competitor. But they all do it.

[nateandcourt]

"If the total rider weight were to exceed 178 Lb (see GVGVRW) this will greatly affect the handling of the Buddy and may result in frame damage."

My poor buddy frame...


Take note they are comparing the buddy 125 to a 150 and using pics of an international 150...

I like piaggio but genuine is giving them a run for their money.

[Lostmycage]

hillbillybear

Have you read the <a href="topic5740.html">FAQ topic on searching ModernBuddy?</a> Give it a look through.

When you post something about how you're sure it's been posted before, but you didn't look for it... it kinda looks bad for ya. People on MB will go out of their way to help one another, but geeze, man - don't expect them to do everything for you. I know the buying and decision process can be a little overwhelming and frustrating, but you've got to show some initiative.

[ericalm]

That PDF is a sales tool Piaggio developed for its dealers to slam and malign the Buddy. It's also intended to help keep its dealers from wanting to sell Genuine. Piaggio doesn't want Genuine in its shops for good reason. Dealers that carry both will tell you: When a customer comes in who wants a Vespa and can afford one, they buy a Vespa. When they come in wanting a Vespa and get sticker shock, they buy a Buddy. Not a Piaggio Fly.

For the past 2 years, Piaggio has devoted significant time in their dealer meetings to slamming the Buddy. They actually had their tech team pull one apart to find anything wrong with it. All they found was that something was mislabeled and that the gross vehicle weight limit was underreported. As we've seen, this limit is way under for most scooters for some reason.

In the past, the Fly was one of the most unfortunately overlooked scooters in the Piaggio/Vespa stable. Same guts as an LX 150; actually decent looking for an angular, modern scooter; 12" tires which in some ways are better than the LX; competitively priced with Kymco 150s.

The Fly (including the engine) is now made in China. I don't know enough owners of these to say how much that's affected quality. A few people have told me they don't think it's as good.

I think the Toyota/Lexus analogy is more accurate when describing a Buddy vs. LX 150. With the Fly it's more Toyota/Scion; much closer to apples to apples.

[hillbillybear]

Cage, Sorry I've not met your standards on this site. I have a son who is a high functioning autistic. I've come to see my reflection in my son. I am a college graduate with a degree in education and in some respects, I'm above average intelligence. But I've never been able to hold a job as a full-time teacher. I substitute teach. I am the kinda guy who tends to jump all over whatever it is that I want. I see something that looks good on-line and I tend to go with it. I love to help people. Maybe that is why I post things like Buddy V. Fly. I wrote a manual early this year on feeding the homeless. I'm hopeful I can get someone interested in it. It is a totally revolutionary that would not allow anyone to go hungry or without shelter. I know you don't know me. But try to understand that my intentions are not meant to be inconsiderate or disrespectful toward you. Go on-line and read a bit about aspergers syndrome. People with this are very spontaneous but usually well intentioned. They also tend to be very outspoken and sometimes belligerent. I don't expect anyone to do anything for me that I wouldn't do for them. I'm a guy just trying to do the right thing. Hopefully this will help you to understand not only me better, and not only people with aspergers but anyone with a disability.

[Lostmycage]

No offense taken.

It actually pretty common to have a lot of questions when one is new to all of this. All I'm asking is that you look for what you're assuming is already out there and THEN post. You'll find that your questions will either already be answered or they'll be more focused.

[Skootz Kabootz]

[Not meaning to change the topic of the thread...]

Sometimes the search function here can be a bit confusing (at least it was for me). One alternate way to search the forum is to use a site specific Google search. Just enter your search word or phrase into the Google search field, followed by site:www.modernbuddy.com. That will pull up everything relevant. Hope that helps.

"your search phrase here - quotes optional" site:www.modernbuddy.com

[Lostmycage]

[Not meaning to change the topic of the thread...]

Sometimes the search function here can be a bit confusing (at least it was for me). One alternate way to search the forum is to use a site specific Google search. Just enter your search word or phrase into the Google search field, followed by site:www.modernbuddy.com. That will pull up everything relevant. Hope that helps.

"your search phrase here - quotes optional" site:www.modernbuddy.com

I'm guessing you haven't looked at the search FAQ, eh? (Google search is the last section of it)

[Skootz Kabootz]

[Not meaning to change the topic of the thread...]

Sometimes the search function here can be a bit confusing (at least it was for me). One alternate way to search the forum is to use a site specific Google search. Just enter your search word or phrase into the Google search field, followed by site:www.modernbuddy.com. That will pull up everything relevant. Hope that helps.

"your search phrase here - quotes optional" site:www.modernbuddy.com

I'm guessing you haven't looked at the search FAQ, eh? (Google search is the last section of it)

Ahhh! BUSTED!

[Roose Hurro]

All they found was that something was mislabeled and that the gross vehicle weight limit was underreported. As we've seen, this limit is way under for most scooters for some reason.

Indeed... the SYM Symba is rated at 199lbs. But I've seen the pics of what the old Honda Cub could and did carry, every day, for years. The Symba is just a new Honda Cub, made by the same people who made the Cub for Honda for around 40 years, so I imagine it could haul the same loads without issue.


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[ericalm]

All they found was that something was mislabeled and that the gross vehicle weight limit was underreported. As we've seen, this limit is way under for most scooters for some reason.

Indeed... the SYM Symba is rated at 199lbs. But I've seen the pics of what the old Honda Cub could and did carry, every day, for years. The Symba is just a new Honda Cub, made by the same people who made the Cub for Honda for around 40 years, so I imagine it could haul the same loads without issue.

Yeah, that's pretty ridiculous. They Symba is totally different in the sense that it's manufactured differently and may have different materials and components. But I guarantee that thing can carry 400 lbs. or more. (The 110cc engine will cause more problems with this than the frame/structural integrity.)

[Jackie F]

Have you seen these websites:

http://www.justgottascoot.com/buddy.htm
http://www.justgottascoot.com/buddy150.htm
http://www.justgottascoot.com/blackjack.htm

[hillbillybear]

As matter of fact, I e-mailed this guy the other day and thanked him for his critiques of scoots. Its not often one can read a critical analysis of a product and get the truth. Seems as though its always slanted in some way. That guy is tops. Thanks

[T'Pring]

Hillbilly,
You making a decision between these two bikes? If you are, the best advice I can give is to go sit on each one to get a feel for it -- unfortunately, you probably won't get to take a test spin.

This comparison is kinda up my alley just because I have a Fly and my wife has a Buddy. I'm sure that sales brochure has a lot of good information in it but, as has been pointed out, it is biased. Kind of like a magician telling you what you're seeing because that is what he wants you to think you're seeing.

The Buddy is peppy, balanced and has a certain fun-factor because it has smaller wheels. It has a smaller frame too and if you are much taller than about 5' 8" you may feel a bit cramped. Gas and parts tend to be cheaper, too [e.g. my windshield was $250 and hers was $90 -- granted, mine is much better quality but, that may not matter for some -- my wife doesn't care].

If you plan on long trips, you might like bigger tires. If you want a cute and 'colorful' scoot you may want to go for a Buddy.

Bottom line -- this (hopefully) will not be your first and last scooter so don't get caught up in too much of the hype -- you must 'feel the force.'

Enjoy whatever you get and ride safe.

[Kaos]

The Buddy is peppy, balanced and has a certain fun-factor because it has smaller wheels. It has a smaller frame too and if you are much taller than about 5' 8" you may feel a bit cramped.

This tends to be a popular argument that I usually disagree with. I'm 6'3" and the Buddy fits just fine. Its not cramped at all, though I tend to sit in the 'passenger' area of the seat.

[Lostmycage]

The Buddy is peppy, balanced and has a certain fun-factor because it has smaller wheels. It has a smaller frame too and if you are much taller than about 5' 8" you may feel a bit cramped.

This tends to be a popular argument that I usually disagree with. I'm 6'3" and the Buddy fits just fine. Its not cramped at all, though I tend to sit in the 'passenger' area of the seat.

I thought we've covered this before. Kaos... you're not "the norm".

Actually, I've got a question for ya. Do you lean foreward or do you sit up straight? I suspect that you've got long enough arms that you sit up straight normally, which would explain your comfort, despite popular opinion.

I know when I sat on the Buddy's rear seat, I leaned forward just a little too much... it ended up putting too much pressure on my wrists. When I sat forward, my knees were cramped but I could ride for a lot longer because I wasn't putting pressure on my wrists.

Everyone's built different.

[Kaos]

The Buddy is peppy, balanced and has a certain fun-factor because it has smaller wheels. It has a smaller frame too and if you are much taller than about 5' 8" you may feel a bit cramped.

This tends to be a popular argument that I usually disagree with. I'm 6'3" and the Buddy fits just fine. Its not cramped at all, though I tend to sit in the 'passenger' area of the seat.

I thought we've covered this before. Kaos... you're not "the norm".

Actually, I've got a question for ya. Do you lean foreward or do you sit up straight? I suspect that you've got long enough arms that you sit up straight normally, which would explain your comfort, despite popular opinion.

I know when I sat on the Buddy's rear seat, I leaned forward just a little too much... it ended up putting too much pressure on my wrists. When I sat forward, my knees were cramped but I could ride for a lot longer because I wasn't putting pressure on my wrists.

Everyone's built different.

No, you're right. I'm not. I just wanted to point out that it CAN be done comfortably for tall people

I sit fairly strait up normally, except at take-off due to the fact that I'll wheelie if I'm in normal scooter seating position. If I'm on the freeway or generally hauling A** I tend to slide even farther back and sit in sorta a sport-bikeish crouch forward.

[Roose Hurro]

Yeah, that's pretty ridiculous. The Symba is totally different in the sense that it's manufactured differently and may have different materials and components. But I guarantee that thing can carry 400 lbs. or more. (The 110cc engine will cause more problems with this than the frame/structural integrity.)

I don't know if it's manufactured differently, but the frame is still steel... probably better steel than in the older Cubs. Definitely some differences in components, but, other than the use of a telescopic fork, not any of any consequence to the bike's hauling capabilities. My local Sym dealer... The Scoot Shop... had one on display, and I went over it with a fine-toothed comb. They also had an original Cub on display right next to it, for comparison. If anything, the Symba seemed even better made, with only the speedo being a bit of a let-down, though the switchgear could also do with some improvement. Still, the Symba's "bones" are solid. Though, as you said, the engine will end up being the limiting factor in how much and how well a Symba can haul.

I think this under-reporting of GVW is kinda like the liability warnings they put on a lot of stuff nowadays. You know, if a 250 lb linebacker breaks his Symba's frame, somehow, they can point to their 199 lb weight limit, and say it isn't their fault. Gives them a layer of lawyer-proofness.


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[Dooglas]

Though, as you said, the engine will end up being the limiting factor in how much and how well a Symba can haul.

You guys make me chuckle. Not that you aren't probably right, but my first scoot was a Honda cub (Honda 50) back in the middle 60s. That little burro hauled me and a pile of stuff everywhere for several years with nary a cough. It was amazing what that little 50cc engine could do. It impressed me so much that I later bought a Honda 160 that I once rode from Boston to Portland, OR. A 110cc engine - heck, its ready for a trip to Mexico.

[ericalm]

Though, as you said, the engine will end up being the limiting factor in how much and how well a Symba can haul.

You guys make me chuckle. Not that you aren't probably right, but my first scoot was a Honda cub (Honda 50) back in the middle 60s. That little burro hauled me and a pile of stuff everywhere for several years with nary a cough. It was amazing what that little 50cc engine could do. It impressed me so much that I later bought a Honda 160 that I once rode from Boston to Portland, OR. A 110cc engine - heck, its ready for a trip to Mexico.

I'd totally do that if I had one.

Well, I guess I could on one of my current scoots. Or a future one.

[pimaCanyon]

hillbillybear

Have you read the <a href="topic5740.html">FAQ topic on searching ModernBuddy?</a> Give it a look through.

When you post something about how you're sure it's been posted before, but you didn't look for it... it kinda looks bad for ya. ...

Yo Lostmycage,

I just tried the Search function searching for "Buddy vs. Fly" and I clicked on the Search for all items" radio button. The search returned nothing! Not even this thread! (I also tried "buddy versus fly", "buddy vs fly", "fly versus buddy", "fly vs buddy" to see if maybe there had been another thread prior to this one about this PDF file comparing the Fly to the Buddy. But I got zero results every time.)

I have done searches where it's gone the other way and I end up with hundreds of threads.

So what are we newbies doing wrong with this search tool (besides giving up on it and posting something that may be redundant)?

[ericalm]

I just tried a few things; it's possible the search is broken. I'll keep playing with it.

I will say that in my recollection, we haven't had a direct Buddy-to-Fly comparison from anyone with experience with both scoots.

But it should be pulling up this thread, Huh.

[Lostmycage]

One of the problems with the search is that is won't return a query on words with less than 3 letter. "VS" returns nothing and no one types out versus.

It has something to do with the assumption that most 2 letter words are prepositions and usually inconsequential to a search query.

I'm not intimately familiar with the search function coding of the phpBB BBCode forum software, but it appears that it doesn't like 2 letter words as well as "search all terms" when there's less than two words.

It's weird sure.

The point I was trying to get across with that post you quoted me from was that the OP openly stated that he didn't bother to search before asking.

As for the Fly... I don't think I've ever met or read from anyone who owns one. They're a bit rare out around my neck of the woods.

[pimaCanyon]

Thanks, Ericalm and Lostmycage.

I would truly like to use the search more often. I know there's a wealth of valuable info here--better than just info because a lot of it comes with experience as well.

Okay, now I'm off to try the search on "mesh jackets", "mesh pants", etc.

[Roose Hurro]

Though, as you said, the engine will end up being the limiting factor in how much and how well a Symba can haul.

You guys make me chuckle. Not that you aren't probably right, but my first scoot was a Honda cub (Honda 50) back in the middle 60s. That little burro hauled me and a pile of stuff everywhere for several years with nary a cough. It was amazing what that little 50cc engine could do. It impressed me so much that I later bought a Honda 160 that I once rode from Boston to Portland, OR. A 110cc engine - heck, its ready for a trip to Mexico.

Yes, I've seen videos of what those little Hondas could haul, which is why I have not only decided on a Symba for my first "scoot" (should funds ever permit), but have also had a chuckle at that 199 lb limit rating, myself. If a 50cc can take all the overloading and abuse I've seen them take, then a 101cc version of the same machine should last forever, with proper maintenance. Hey, funds permitting, should I end up with a Symba, I wouldn't have any trouble loading it up and taking it on a road-trip... not to Mexico, since I have no desire to go there, but I have heard that Franklin Blvd connects Sacramento and Stockton... so who knows where I could go from there.

Just need some good maps.........


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[ericalm]

Searching Google is really the best way to go at this point. I'll try to find some fixes or upgrades for the built-in system because it is acting suckier than usual.

To search using Google, enter your search terms (use Boolean operators such as AND, OR, NOT) then add site:modernbuddy.com. Works quite well.

I will say that in my recollection, we haven't had a direct Buddy-to-Fly comparison from anyone with experience with both scoots.

How soon I forget! Ellen has owned both:
topic3331.html

But there are a few relevant threads that are pretty easy to find; they're in the Reviews section.
topic4835.html
topic4532.html

[chloefpuff]

Dealers that carry both will tell you: When a customer comes in who wants a Vespa and can afford one, they buy a Vespa. When they come in wanting a Vespa and get sticker shock, they buy a Buddy. Not a Piaggio Fly.

Not all customers. I walked in ready to buy a Vespa, found they were actually less than my budget, and bought a Buddy instead.

no. regrets.

[ericalm]

Dealers that carry both will tell you: When a customer comes in who wants a Vespa and can afford one, they buy a Vespa. When they come in wanting a Vespa and get sticker shock, they buy a Buddy. Not a Piaggio Fly.

Not all customers. I walked in ready to buy a Vespa, found they were actually less than my budget, and bought a Buddy instead.

no. regrets.

Yes, but you're just awesome that way.

[chloefpuff]

Dealers that carry both will tell you: When a customer comes in who wants a Vespa and can afford one, they buy a Vespa. When they come in wanting a Vespa and get sticker shock, they buy a Buddy. Not a Piaggio Fly.

Not all customers. I walked in ready to buy a Vespa, found they were actually less than my budget, and bought a Buddy instead.

no. regrets.

Yes, but you're just awesome that way.

ha ha ha, yes I am.
Have I told you about the time I told my husband I was a Genuine girl?

[jfrost2]

This was the PDF I had mentioend in your other thread about the slanderous sales tactics vespa exclusive dealers have been using to deter people from purchasing bikes from Genuine scooters. All a bunch of made up silly rumors and lies and smear the amazing quality of the buddy.

[hillbillybear]

Cage, I did search the FAQ. The FAQ that YOU put together is a rotten piece of work. It sucks, I'm sorry to say. I would be embarrassed to have my name beside it. There is nothing on the Buddy vs. Fly. There is nothing on reliability, there is nothing on milege. As well, there is nothing on elevation. I think it would be so cool to ride a scoot to the top of the world in the continental US, Trail Ridge Road. But there is nothing concerning the effects of such elevation on the carb at this elevation. The only thing on elevation has something to do with 5,000 feet or something. If you wanted to do the FAQ properly, you would call on some of the Genuine dealers and ask them what problems have they encountered. Then you would e-mail and converse privately with modernbuddy members (you know, one on one) and combine the problems mentioned until you come out with a reasonable subject to write on. You could possibly even do powerpoint presentations on how to fix some of the more simple problems encountered such as a stuck float valve, bad gas, or installation of a quality exhaust. As well, instead of lumping all the really good stuff to keep the bike running under the heading of technical, why don't you subdivide the information.
Look, don't be such a jerk. I made up my mind tonight I'm NOT going to let you run me off here. Get your act together and stop crying when someone has a freakin' question. If someone asks a question which you know is on the FAQ, don't be rude by going cough, FAQ cough. Introduce the person to the FAQ. And if the question is not answered on the FAQ, be a gentleman and make it known that is the case. Tell the person you'll do your best to get the answer. Don't belittle the individual. I might want to buy a Buddy. Help me in my decision. Help others as well. Try being nice. And by the way, the photos on how to do an oil change are very nice. Lets do more of that and less bitching and mocking people. Got a problem with what I've stated. Sorry, but it's the truth. Want me thrown off because I didn't back down from you? Talk to Eric. Also, I did call Genuine about your attitude toward me. They apologized but stated there is nothing they can do. But at least I made them aware there is a problem. My understanding is modernbuddy is not owned by Genuine. Thats fine with me. Ball is in your court, Cage.

[bigbropgo]

Whoa dude! I know this has nothing to do personally with me but I'm not sure where your coming from. Take a minute and go back through your posts and the replies. Nobody was rude until you started calling people out. Maybe if this place sucks so bad you can fix it. Or hang out a a place that sucks less.

[ericalm]

Cage, I did search the FAQ. The FAQ that YOU put together is a rotten piece of work. It sucks, I'm sorry to say. I would be embarrassed to have my name beside it. There is nothing on the Buddy vs. Fly. There is nothing on reliability, there is nothing on milege. As well, there is nothing on elevation. I think it would be so cool to ride a scoot to the top of the world in the continental US, Trail Ridge Road. But there is nothing concerning the effects of such elevation on the carb at this elevation. The only thing on elevation has something to do with 5,000 feet or something. If you wanted to do the FAQ properly, you would call on some of the Genuine dealers and ask them what problems have they encountered. Then you would e-mail and converse privately with modernbuddy members (you know, one on one) and combine the problems mentioned until you come out with a reasonable subject to write on. You could possibly even do powerpoint presentations on how to fix some of the more simple problems encountered such as a stuck float valve, bad gas, or installation of a quality exhaust. As well, instead of lumping all the really good stuff to keep the bike running under the heading of technical, why don't you subdivide the information.
Look, don't be such a jerk. I made up my mind tonight I'm NOT going to let you run me off here. Get your act together and stop crying when someone has a freakin' question. If someone asks a question which you know is on the FAQ, don't be rude by going cough, FAQ cough. Introduce the person to the FAQ. And if the question is not answered on the FAQ, be a gentleman and make it known that is the case. Tell the person you'll do your best to get the answer. Don't belittle the individual. I might want to buy a Buddy. Help me in my decision. Help others as well. Try being nice. And by the way, the photos on how to do an oil change are very nice. Lets do more of that and less bitching and mocking people. Got a problem with what I've stated. Sorry, but it's the truth. Want me thrown off because I didn't back down from you? Talk to Eric. Also, I did call Genuine about your attitude toward me. They apologized but stated there is nothing they can do. But at least I made them aware there is a problem. My understanding is modernbuddy is not owned by Genuine. Thats fine with me. Ball is in your court, Cage.

First off, Lostmycage doesn't get paid to do this. He hasn't been tasked with assembling every piece of information on the Buddy. I asked him to assist me in putting the FAQ together and he's really taken the charge with it and had contributed far more than I have at this point.

A FAQ is not a comprehensive encyclopedia of all things everyone wants to know. It's FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS. These are the things most commonly asked about here. We spot them, put them in a FAQ. Effects of altitude have come up before, but haven't made it into a FAQ yet.

At the top of the FAQ/Guides section is a sticky post entitled About this Forum. It reads:

This section was created to help provide a quick-reference for those seeking answers to common questions. While we don't want to discourage posting, many questions get asked repeatedly, which drives some older members away. We hope to find a balance by providing basic information here, but still encouraging member participation in General Discussions.

The pieces posted here are by no means definitive and could use member feedback and suggestions. To keep these clean, a comments thread for each item here will be started in General Discussions. The threads will be linked back and forth.

We'll be adding to this section as we're able, but if anyone has ideas for it or wants to contribute, please PM me and let me know.

This should have given you a pretty realistic expectation of what to find there but I doubt you bothered reading it.

We do this stuff in our spare time to help the community. We do what we can. If you have time to come here and bitch about how it's done, and time to call Genuine—which has no responsibility for this site—to complain about someone here, you certainly could have called them to ask the question yourself.

We're not here to serve your needs. If we don't have all the answers you seek, you'll just have to find them yourself rather than coming here to complain about it.

Lostmycage was polite with you and was trying to be helpful. I don't know why you took it that way—no one has in the past. I don't think anyone else reading it took it that way. If I thought one of the Moderators was being hostile towards a member, especially a new one, they'd be chastized.

Instead, what I see is you being defensive for no reason, irrational, and inexplicably angry towards someone who's been a huge help to other members and the forum and general.

It would behoove you to apologize to Lostmycage. He's done what he can with the resources available and has devoted considerable time to doing so. We're constrained by the forum software and templates and it's not been easy shoehorning so much information into it as a FAQ system.

No one's trying to run you off, but I can sure as hell kick you off. So if you plan on staying, read the Posting Guidelines and realize that this is a community, not a service. We are all here to support each other in any way possible. That doesn't mean catering to everyone's every need. That's not why we're here.

I don't want to hear any more shit about what we're not doing for you because you won't pick up a phone and ask a dealer yourself.

[ericalm]

Well, you had your chance. Sending me an offensive PM: not the spirit of community we're looking for.

Banned.

[Lostmycage]

Wow. Just wow.