Are people crashing Buddys all the time?

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:24 pm

Here's the thing.
I've been shopping aroung insurance quotes and my Buddy BJ is the most expensive bike I have to insure!

All my bikes have full coverage/theft/collision etc, all at the same level.

My 2009 Buddy 150cc costs:

1/ $50 more than my 2003 Ducati St4s sportbike - 996cc, 130hp!
2/ More than double to insure than my 2007 Vespa 250 GTS!

I have shopped this around, and this pattern exists at all the companies I've asked.
The only thing I can think of is the Buddy is a much higher insurance risk because it is crashed and/or stolen a whole heck of a lot.
With all the threads I've seen from people who have dropped/crashed one just after a short time of owning one, it is beginning to make sense.
I think the problem with the Buddy is it is so cute and seemingly easy to ride, that people get one w/o out any training and/or little experience and get in over their heads w/o realising it.

Seriously, my Ducati makes 10 times the power, is worth more and is cheaper to insure? That is nuts..
I guess I have only my fellow Buddy riders to blame.

Discuss!

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:34 pm

It is newer...

2009 Buddy 150 Retail Value- $2320
2007 Vespa GTS 250 Retail Value - $3620
2003 Ducati ST4S Retail Value - $6,145

Hope this helps.

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:12 pm

Lotrat wrote:It is newer...

2009 Buddy 150 Retail Value- $2320
2007 Vespa GTS 250 Retail Value - $3620
2003 Ducati ST4S Retail Value - $6,145

Hope this helps.

That shows Buddy is worth much less, but yet costs much more to insure.
Ignoring the fact the Buddy has a much smaller engine and is much slower.

Buddys must have a really high loss rate compared to other bikes.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:19 pm

Not sure if this is the case, but I have found as much as a 100% price difference from insurer to insurer. Some had no idea what a Genuine scooter was so seemed to by default jack up their price an absurd amount. Progressive insurance once quoted me an annual rate only slightly less than the entire purchase prince of the scooter! Even the agent was perplexed.

Do you not get a multi-vehicle discount? Some insurers do that, some don't.

Gorilla_Cycle · Post by **Gorilla_Cycle** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:07 pm

People aren't stealing Ducatis to strip as much as they are stealing scooters. After gas prices rose and scooters were everywhere, suddenly there was a market for used scooter parts. Sure, Ducatis are stolen, but not ST4s as much as the super sports.

If you want to feel better, look at the costs to insure a japanese super bike. Theft, crashes, total claims, it's insane!

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:29 pm

When I coughed at the cost to insure my Fiddle - insurance for the Fiddle was going to be almost as much as for a years older fullsize pickup - my agent said the price to cover a scooter was determined only by age and displacement. Oh, and driving record. And income level. And credit rating. And, and, ...

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:29 pm

Gorilla_Cycle wrote:People aren't stealing Ducatis to strip as much as they are stealing scooters. After gas prices rose and scooters were everywhere, suddenly there was a market for used scooter parts. Sure, Ducatis are stolen, but not ST4s as much as the super sports.

I think it just comes down to loss rate, whether from accident or theft.

I see so many scooters riding around LA, beat up, with no license plates or tags that I would not be surprised if many of them are stolen. And many of these riders look like they have no idea how to properly control their rides.
What bugs me is cops seem to turn a blind eye to this stuff. Which perpetuates the problem.

Gorilla_Cycle · Post by **Gorilla_Cycle** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:36 pm

Agreed. Especially with the entrance fee to a scooter being so low, they are probably written off constantly. I remember being told by my dad that you could build a Geo Metro from individual parts for the cost of a whole Corvette. I'm sure it's not much different on a scooter. They must be parted out because I never see salvaged title scoots for sale. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

I can think of one specific guy on a really beat up chinese scooter with a trunk that is always nearly hitting cars and mirrors splitting lanes on La Brea. If that scoot isn't stolen he should still tell people it was because it's a wreck.

Chessy1 · Post by **Chessy1** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:49 pm

I read somewhere recently that 8.6% of all scoots are stolen each year, which is a pretty high percentage when you think about it (granted, I read that on some forum somewhere, so who knows how accurate that number is), but consider how much the Buddy weighs and how easy it would be to steal (some person has a youtube video of his Buddy getting stolen by three kids in no time at all) and it's no wonder insurance rates are higher than expected.

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:07 pm

Syd wrote:my agent said the price to cover a scooter was determined only by age and displacement. Oh, and driving record. And income level. And credit rating. And, and, ...

See that there is where my surprise came in.

I'm not insuring just one bike. I already have a multi bike policy, all with the same level of coverage, all suspect to the same driving record/income level/credit rating (mine!) and yet the scoot that is the smallest, slowest and worth the least - the Buddy - costs more than the others to insure!

Which means statistically the Buddy must have a terrible insurance loss history.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:53 pm

Often misleading to compare different areas and different drivers but full coverage on my Buddy has been the same as on an LX150 and a little less than the current policies on my GTS Vespa and my MP3. (through State Farm)

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:34 pm

has something changed about your credit?
Insuring my Stella was 145 per year.

My girlfriend looked at the same company for her 170i and they wanted 700$!!
When I asked them how much it would cost ME to insure the buddy they quoted me approx 200$ before the multi-vehicle discount.
apparently there were some errors in her credit report that caused her insurance to spike to ridiculous numbers, and that was really the only difference between us.

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:53 pm

Lokky wrote:has something changed about your credit?
Insuring my Stella was 145 per year.

No.

Remember I am talking about a multi bike policy and comparing the prices to all the bikes.

If my credit was affected, it would not just affect the rate of one bike but not the others.

I just talked to my agent directly and she said it was because, in Los Angeles, Buddys have a really bad loss rate.

But... they are going to check to see if I can get other discounts....

jonlink · Post by **jonlink** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:34 pm

I think this really depends on a lot of things. I can say for a fact that my 2012 170i was not very expensive to insure through Progressive.

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:46 pm

jonlink wrote:I think this really depends on a lot of things. I can say for a fact that my 2012 170i was not very expensive to insure through Progressive.

Do you also have other bikes on that policy that you can compare it to?

The issue is cost relative to other bigger, more expensive bikes on the same policy.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:49 pm

The real issue here, as desmolicious has brought it up, is insurance for a Buddy being more than for a Vespa GTS (or other more expensive and powerful bike) for the same driver. Obviously seems nuts to him - and to me. As I point out above, this has certainly not occurred in my case. He is told it is an LA thing, but I'm having a hard time believing that Buddys are being stolen at such an astronomical rate in LA compared to Vespas and other scooters that this is driving Buddy insurance rates off the charts. I suppose anything is possible but I'd put both an insurance agency screw up and a daffy insurance agent higher on the list of possibles than the "stolen in 3 minutes" explanation

.

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:54 am

Thing is.. the Buddy is tiny in comparison to the Vespa and so can very easily be picked up. Also the Vespa comes, stock, with an electronic ignition immobilizer. If the computer does not recognize the chip in the key, the bike will not start. With the Buddy (like most bikes) you just can jam a screwdriver in there and turn the ignition on.

But also let's not forget it's not just theft, but accidents. The Buddy appeals to beginners as it seems so tiny and non threatening. But is capable of real speed and many just do not understand these scoots are not toys.

Anyway, I complained to my ins co. and they said they'll get back to me, see if they can adjust my multi-bike policy blah blah blah

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:00 am

Here's what's weird:

We have never had a report on the site of an LA-area Buddy being stolen. I've never heard about a Buddy theft from my dealer, who I talk to at least once a week. Go through the theft reports on scoot.net and you'll find very few in the LA area. I find it very hard to believe that not only are thefts much higher than are reported anywhere or by anyone, but that these thefts are specifically of Buddys and that the difference is high enough to cause such an enormous jump in your insurance rates for that scooter.

By comparison, Richmond, VA, Washington, DC and Boston are known hotbeds of scooter thefts with many frequent reports of Buddy and other scooter thefts. So if anyone in those areas has a multi-bike/scooter policy, how does the Buddy rate compare to the others?

I do think it's plausible that Buddys get crashed often. But, again, do they get crashed so much more often in LA in particular that if would have this kind of effect on rates specific to the Buddy? I can see LA having a higher rate of Buddy crashes than the rest of the country—may not be true but it's plausible—but is that enough to explain such a large discrepancy?

Something still seems off here.

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:04 am

Here's an experiment: Try getting rates for each vehicle online or calling another company to get a quote and see if they do the same.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:16 am

desmolicious wrote:Thing is.. the Buddy is tiny in comparison to the Vespa and so can very easily be picked up.

That really doesn't work. The Buddy is smaller and lighter than the GTS Vespa. It is not particularly smaller or lighter than the LX Vespa. I have never heard anyone claim that the LX is more commonly stolen than the GTS or that anyone sets insurance rates higher for the LX than the GTS. This doesn't really make sense to me. I'm still waiting for someone in the LA area with a Vespa and a Buddy insured with a different company to weigh in.

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:37 am

It depends on which vehicle you are listing as the first vehicle on the policy. The first vehicle takes on the weight of your policy. Try listing one of the other bikes as the first bike.

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:39 am

Dooglas wrote:
desmolicious wrote:Thing is.. the Buddy is tiny in comparison to the Vespa and so can very easily be picked up.
That really doesn't work. The Buddy is smaller and lighter than the GTS Vespa. It is not particularly smaller or lighter than the LX Vespa. I have never heard anyone claim that the LX is more commonly stolen than the GTS or that anyone sets insurance rates higher for the LX than the GTS. This doesn't really make sense to me. I'm still waiting for someone in the LA area with a Vespa and a Buddy insured with a different company to weigh in.

Unfortunately, my Buddy and Vespa were under different policies; the Buddy was on my wife's.

I do know people who own GTSs and Buddys but none in that part of town. Others live far enough away (Thousand Oaks, Wrightwood, deep in the Valley) that it's not comparable.

I'm not sure how much having both matters though. If what the agent said is accurate, then insurance prices on all Buddys across the board would be extremely high in the affected areas. It would also mean that insuring a Buddy now would be significantly higher than it cost in 2006/07, before there were Buddy stats.

The dry weight difference between a Buddy and a Vespa LX is about 7lbs, IIRC. Less than 10. In the past, (modern) Vespas were stolen and sold as parts, which was easier and more lucrative than trying to sell a whole one that would need a new $600 CDI and keys to run (because of the immobiliser and programmed keys). If other scooters are being targeted more, it may be because the Vespas are too difficult in other ways. Also, the parts market has been flooded in the past couple of years, partially due to so many Vespa dealers closing. (Most of the parts stocks were sold to other dealers or at auction.)

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:43 pm

ericalm wrote: By comparison, Richmond, VA, Washington, DC and Boston are known hotbeds of scooter thefts with many frequent reports of Buddy and other scooter thefts. So if anyone in those areas has a multi-bike/scooter policy, how does the Buddy rate compare to the others?

Yes Richmond is scooter theft central.
Like I mentioned earlier, I have tried adding a buddy 170i to my policy on the same terms as my Stella to understand why my girlfriend was being quoted so much.
Coverage for the Stella is 145. For the 170i it was going to be 200$ before multi-vehicle discount.
Taking into consideration that the 170i is the 2012 model and my Stella is an 09' which got insured just after the MSRP dropped to 2800, there doesn't seem to be a particular fee due to the buddy name.
Keep in mind that buddys here get stolen very frequently, but so far I have only heard of one stella being stolen... I think most thieves realize how few stellas are in town and how easily recognizable a stolen one would be.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:03 pm

Is this the part where I don't mention that my scooter costs 99/year...?

n2snoopy · Post by **n2snoopy** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:38 am

I live in the Oklahoma City area and when I added my Buddy 125 to my husbands Harley Davidson Street Glide insurance the price we pay each month actually went down by about $5.oo. I love it, add scooter and save money!!!!! We have cycle insurance with Progressive.

Modern Buddy

Are people crashing Buddys all the time?

Are people crashing Buddys all the time?

Insurance cost