Black Jack Front Brake Caliper Mounting Plate

Hellvis · Post by **Hellvis** » Sun May 22, 2011 4:36 pm

In case you guys weren't aware but the the front brake caliper mounting plate on my 2009 Black Jack is out of aluminium.

This unit is what they call the performance brakes from NCY.

I had to find this out the hard way yesterday during a routine maintenance and front tire change. I am glad actually that I noticed that in the shop instead of on the road where it could have potentially caused serious bodily harm to me.

I have checked the mounting plate on a regualr 125 Buddy and those are out of steel, which in my opinion is the right way to go.

The proplem in my opinion is that beeing the plate out of aluminium makes it easy for the threads to be damaged easily and thus allowing the caliper to come off and lock up the front tire.

I have attached a few pics with the damaged threads and the plate I am talking about.

I am curious if this is a known issue here or if this is soemthing new?

Any opinions?

Post by **ericalm** » Sun May 22, 2011 6:48 pm

FWIW, I haven't heard of or seen any issues with this in the past…

HowHH · Post by **HowHH** » Sun May 22, 2011 6:52 pm

You're not alone. The same thing happened to me.

I discovered the problem when I pulled the front wheel for a tire change. The bottom bolt in the bracket came out way too easily, and when I examined more closely I found the same stripped aluminum bracket threads in the threads of the caliper bolt. Someone somewhere obviously overtorqued the bracket bolt. During manufacture or PDI or 500 mile service?

I too, don't understand why they didn't use a steel bracket.

Unfortunately, you can't get the bracket alone from Scooterworks. It's only available as part of the big brake kit.

I considered getting a standard bracket and rotor instead, but stayed with the Big Brake kit. I carefully torqued the bracket bolts to spec during installation.

I'm also concerned about durability. The caliper needs to removed during a tire change, and I'm not sure how many disassembly cycles it will go through before the bracket needs to be replaced. Scooterworks really should have the bracket available as a separate item.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Mon May 23, 2011 5:22 am

That looks scary. My suggestion is to either have the holes Helicoiled (whether stripped or not) or use a longer grade 8 bolt and a nut (either self-locking or with a lock washer).

HowHH · Post by **HowHH** » Mon May 23, 2011 2:42 pm

I considered both alternatives. For the helicoil, there's not much material there for the helicoil to bite into. The mounting plate is not very thick as maybe you can see from Hellvis's pics, so I was concerned about how secure the mount would be.

A longer bolt secured into a nut behind the mounting plate would be a very secure solution, but the problem I ran into was that there was very little clearance between the back of the plate and the rotor. I'm not sure that it can't be done, I just decided to go with the more expeditious route of getting a replacement Big brake kit in order to get a new mounting bracket. More $$ though

CWO4GUNNER · Post by **CWO4GUNNER** » Mon May 23, 2011 3:01 pm

Try an find a low profile nut most likely made in stainless steel. Just like the low profile stainless steel nuts like the ones used on tire locks for dirt bikes. Find out the metric thread size you need and then cruise Bike-Bandit parts schematics for a match. Then drill the mounting plate existing holes out 50% to the nuts width and counter sink the bolts securing them with fiberglass epoxy or solder-torch. You could even use a softer standard nut and counter sink it secured with fiberglass epoxy, then grind off the excess nut sticking out so that the profile of both the plate and nut are flush.

I suppose the easy part is that since you also need longer bolts to reach, you can go with your choice of any bolt thread size you may even have on hand, however I would use a machine thread high tensile strength nut and bolt and perhaps consider nylon embedded locking nuts so that you can eliminate the use of a lock washer. If its possible you could also reverse the bolts so that the nuts are on the outside making the whole process easier to work with and access.

Lastly you could also cut a steel mounting plate from the aluminum pattern and then just tap and thread to the needed size. There are all kinds of options. Personally I would permanently install longer bolts in reverse and grind down the bolt heads to the height necessary to prevent interference with the rim, then I would use the nuts on the outside.

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Mon May 23, 2011 3:09 pm

Why not remove the bolts that attach the assembly to the fork instead of the bolts that attach the caliper to the adapter?

Contact your dealer if it's under warranty. If not, maybe they can work with Genuine/Scooterworks/NCY to produce and supply a steel replacement.

For a more DIY fix. Take the bracket off and to to a machine shop. Ask for it in Steel. They might even powder coat it for you if you like.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Mon May 23, 2011 7:33 pm

I like Lostmycage's solution of fabricating it in steel the best. If you can find a shop that has water-jet capabilities, that would be ideal. Heck, you could distribute the cost by having several made and selling them to fellow Buddy owners.

Hellvis · Post by **Hellvis** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:07 pm

I agree that this plate needs to be out of steel, as I have mentioned above on the standard brakes the plate is out of steel and there is a reason for it to be out of steel. This plate needs to withstand the extreme forces during a breaking period, the caliper and rotor and the bolts are working against each other and also the plate needs to be durable for wear and tear when the caliper is removed and mounted back on.

I have contacted Genuine about a solution for this problem. No offense to Genuine but this looks to me a design issue on the part of NCY, and Genuine might even not be aware of it.

I see Genuine as a solid and honest company so I am guessing that this is an oversight and that Genuine will take care of it.

I actually just wanted to inform everyone of this problem and to be careful, this could result in a serious injury if you don't realize that the bolts are not secured on the plate.

HowHH · Post by **HowHH** » Tue May 24, 2011 1:39 am

Keep us informed as to how Genuine responds. I'm assuming we can't be the only two Blackjack owners who have had this problem. Thanks for following through on this.

Hellvis · Post by **Hellvis** » Tue May 24, 2011 10:40 pm

Thank you very much for your kind words, I will most definitly keep you guys updated on the outcome.

Hellvis · Post by **Hellvis** » Thu May 26, 2011 12:09 am

Patiently waiting for a response.....

Hellvis · Post by **Hellvis** » Sat May 28, 2011 4:46 pm

I am actually a little bit surprised, I haven't received any kind of response from Genuine about my e-mail I sent them on Monday evening. This is weird.....or do I have much higher opinion of them that I should have?

Anyways, I'll have to follow up next week and see if they will respond to it.

Meanwhile my ride is down for this marvelous long week-end and I have to watch it go by.

If anyone is interested I can PM you the e-mail I sent them so you can give me your opinion on it.

CWO4GUNNER · Post by **CWO4GUNNER** » Sat May 28, 2011 5:24 pm

Depending whether or not it still under warranty for manufacturer defects, your email may have been looked at one of two ways by staff.

"That's what the warranty's process is for, let him take it to the dealer" Or The unit is out of warranty for defects, its no longer our responsibility, let him take it to the dealer for out of pocket repairs."

Sometimes attaching a link to your thread helps, its like customer service advertising.

This is the down side of buying from a manufactures that do not sell or make available "ALL" of its parts to the public. The idea of restricting parts to dealers for repair cost only is actually a new one. I love my Buddy scooter but until complete part brake down become available, demand for the scooter will be hampered long run. Also if the model is ever discontinued parts that are available will dry up much more quickly IMO. Hopefully one day they will make every nut, bolt, and pin available on schematic for sale to the public and easily accessible, just like the Japanese. Id rather pay $50 for the plate then $200 for the whole brake assembly. Of course in my case, a non-dynamic part like that I would just make or repair myself for $0-$5 "better then new" as previously stated, and get back to riding feeling the confidence boost.

HowHH · Post by **HowHH** » Sat May 28, 2011 6:15 pm

Hellvis wrote:I am actually a little bit surprised, I haven't received any kind of response from Genuine about my e-mail I sent them on Monday evening. This is weird.....or do I have much higher opinion of them that I should have?

I had a similar experience last year. I had emailed Genuine last year with a question and never received a response. To my recollection I don't think I even received an auto-reply type of email. I never followed up because I found an answer elsewhere on-line.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Sat May 28, 2011 7:08 pm

CWO4GUNNER wrote:Depending whether or not it still under warranty for manufacturer defects, your email may have been looked at one of two ways by staff.

"That's what the warranty's process is for, let him take it to the dealer" Or The unit is out of warranty for defects, its no longer our responsibility, let him take it to the dealer for out of pocket repairs."

If that's what you think then you clearly are not familiar with the attitude at Genuine. Not that things never slip through the cracks, but seriously, I have yet to see another company jump through more hoops for their customers. There are countless examples all over this board.

Hellvis · Post by **Hellvis** » Sat May 28, 2011 7:12 pm

CWO4GUNNER wrote:Depending whether or not it still under warranty for manufacturer defects, your email may have been looked at one of two ways by staff.

"That's what the warranty's process is for, let him take it to the dealer" Or The unit is out of warranty for defects, its no longer our responsibility, let him take it to the dealer for out of pocket repairs."

Sometimes attaching a link to your thread helps, its like customer service advertising.

This is the down side of buying from a manufactures that do not sell or make available "ALL" of its parts to the public. The idea of restricting parts to dealers for repair cost only is actually a new one. I love my Buddy scooter but until complete part brake down become available, demand for the scooter will be hampered long run. Also if the model is ever discontinued parts that are available will dry up much more quickly IMO. Hopefully one day they will make every nut, bolt, and pin available on schematic for sale to the public and easily accessible, just like the Japanese. Id rather pay $50 for the plate then $200 for the whole brake assembly. Of course in my case, a non-dynamic part like that I would just make or repair myself for $0-$5 "better then new" as previously stated, and get back to riding feeling the confidence boost.

Actually this goes beyound the question wether if it is warranty or not. As stated my dealer went out of business. My question remains the same wether this plate is safe as it is or not, I do not believe that it is, and this is why I am even posting this here to make other Black Jack owners aware of this issue and to be really really careful with their front brakes. One can only imagine what would happen if one of those bolts would come out and the caliper would fall down on your front tire while you a driving.

The warranty question would not answer my question and my part would be replaced with the same existing one, which I am questioning and I am not going to place another aluminum plate that will fail again (in my opinion) until I have some answers.

My scooter is in fact still within the warranty period and Genuine knows better than me that my dealer is out of business so I would think they would take matters in their hands and do whatever is possible in their power to satisfy their customers. But hey this is just my common sense and logical mind speaking, what would I know of how to treat a customer.

This is a matter of customer satisfaction and giving a reason to current Genuine scooter owners to keep coming back for future scooter purchases.

CWO4GUNNER · Post by **CWO4GUNNER** » Sat May 28, 2011 8:39 pm

To be honest given the bikes that I have had, their disk brake systems and the conditions and load stress they have to endure, that aluminum mounting plate for the demands of such a small scooter on relatively ideal road surfaces is more then adequate. My dirt bike disk brake mounting systems have all been aluminum and they take a pounding.

Now don't misunderstand me, I do think the threading of the aluminum plate is an engineering mistake and should have had steel bushing inserts or tapered countersunk steel aircraft nuts and bolts. But the plate itself being aluminum is fine, you just have to put on your thinking cap and figure a way to fix it, spend the big bucks and buy an entire steel assembly, take it to another authorized dealer mechanic or wait until Genie does a national recall.

Now I have looked at my Buddy steel mounting plate and my dirt bike and quad racer mounting plate which are both threaded aluminum but employ bigger and more bolts and therefor more threads, so aluminum can and does work. I also noticed on my Buddy mounting plate (if aluminum) that there is enough room to remove the wheel and insert 2 longer bolts from the inside outward that have had there steel bolt-heads ground-down to 1/3 (plenty of meat to hold the bolts) and have them secured with nuts on the outside, problem solved. Or if you don't feel comfortable using ground-down bolt-heads, you can buy aircraft tapered Allen bolts that will mount flush on the inside provided you drill-taper the existing holes on the inside of the aluminum plate to accommodate the tapered bolts flush, again secured with standard locking nuts on the outside. This option leaves you with a professional and better then OEM option both lightweight and strong. Best of all your our riding with a boost of confidence.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Sat May 28, 2011 9:30 pm

Also remember that there are different grades of aluminum. Maybe they used 6061 aluminum (cheaper, easier to machine) instead of the much stronger 7075.

Hellvis · Post by **Hellvis** » Sat May 28, 2011 10:16 pm

CWO4GUNNER wrote:To be honest given the bikes that I have had, their disk brake systems and the conditions and load stress they have to endure, that aluminum mounting plate for the demands of such a small scooter on relatively ideal road surfaces is more then adequate. My dirt bike disk brake mounting systems have all been aluminum and they take a pounding.

Now don't misunderstand me, I do think the threading of the aluminum plate is an engineering mistake and should have had steel bushing inserts or tapered countersunk steel aircraft nuts and bolts. But the plate itself being aluminum is fine, you just have to put on your thinking cap and figure a way to fix it, spend the big bucks and buy an entire steel assembly, take it to another authorized dealer mechanic or wait until Genie does a national recall.

Now I have looked at my Buddy steel mounting plate and my dirt bike and quad racer mounting plate which are both threaded aluminum but employ bigger and more bolts and therefor more threads, so aluminum can and does work. I also noticed on my Buddy mounting plate (if aluminum) that there is enough room to remove the wheel and insert 2 longer bolts from the inside outward that have had there steel bolt-heads ground-down to 1/3 (plenty of meat to hold the bolts) and have them secured with nuts on the outside, problem solved. Or if you don't feel comfortable using ground-down bolt-heads, you can buy aircraft tapered Allen bolts that will mount flush on the inside provided you drill-taper the existing holes on the inside of the aluminum plate to accommodate the tapered bolts flush, again secured with standard locking nuts on the outside. This option leaves you with a professional and better then OEM option both lightweight and strong. Best of all your our riding with a boost of confidence.

Thank you very much I highly appreciate your professional input on this matter.

On a standard buddy the plates are steel and also the tires can be removed without removing the break caliper but the Black Jack has the larger discs and larger break caliper and there is hardly any room left and the actual caliper and the disk have to be removed in order to remove the tire.

So the plate on a Black Jack is not only exposed to the standard forces of the breaking but also the threads will have wear and tear by removing and re-installing the system whenever the tire is removed. I don't have a problem that the plate is aluminum but the threads should have been steel inserts since it is intended to be used constantly. But it's all good, I am taking care of it and I just want to make sure that the other Black Jack owners are aware of it and that no one gets hurt.

Hellvis · Post by **Hellvis** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:07 am

Haven't received a response yet, I send Genuine a follow up e-mail. I don't understand why they are so hesitant of taking matters in their hands.

Well let's see how this plays out.

Hellvis · Post by **Hellvis** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:03 am

now almost another week past by without an answer from Genuine. I don't understand why they are stone walling me????

Does anyone know if

[email protected]

is a good e-mail address?? Maybe the address is not good and they don't receive my correspondence. This is the only thing I can think of why I won't get a response.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:20 am

...maybe they get dozens (hundreds?) of emails a day and just haven't gotten to yours? They have a spam filter?

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:26 am

Why don't you just phone them? Call the number on your warrantee card.

Hellvis · Post by **Hellvis** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:30 pm

I went through all my documentation I have, including the warranty card that was issued to me when I bought the scooter. I cannot find a single phone number for Genuine, I only have the phone number of the dealer that is out of business and of course the road side assistance number.

Will my effforts stay fruitless???

Dean F · Post by **Dean F** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:45 pm

Genuine Scooters LLC

Address: 5400 N Damen Ave
Chicago, IL,
60625-1105
Phone: 773-271-8514
Fax: 773-271-5012

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:53 pm

This is precisely the kind of issue and alert that would normally be handled by a dealer (I understand why you can't go that route), which is why you may be having trouble getting through to someone. Phoning is definitely best, though.

Though the NCY is a third-party part, it did come stock on the BlackJack so should be covered under warranty. Unfortunately, Genuine has little ability to improve the brake itself, as they don't make it and are no longer even putting them on their bikes. The only solution for you, personally, may be a replacement NCY or a stock PGO brake.

As far as this as a broader issue, a lot depends on how often this happens and whether some of the calipers fail due to defects rather than this being widespread problem. Not a lot of people have experienced this and most dealers have probably never seen the problem. I'm not sure much can be done on that level, other than ongoing warranty support and replacements for the few that do fail.

HowHH · Post by **HowHH** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:38 pm

Hellvis,
How did this all turn out?

hairball · Post by **hairball** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:52 pm

I saw a thread on this a few months ago, I needed to change out my tires and I am an ex-aircraft (A&P) mechanic.

Rather than risk stripping out the aluminum bracket, I opted to unbolt the disk first and remove the front tire assembly without the disk attached, It worked, but took a little extra effort... Sure beats buying a big brake assembly.

I don't know if the threads are stripped on my bracket and didn't want to find out, Everything still seems tight but I keep a close eye on it and listen for clunking or knocking sounds when I brake.

Another probable cause might be dissimilar metal corrosion happening in the threads and binding the two metals.

I hope there is a steel bracket or a recall available by my next tire change.... I doubt adding an 8 oz steel bracket is going to slow my scooter down much... Much rather have peace of mind.

Hellvis · Post by **Hellvis** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:43 pm

Well I called a while ago and they seemed interested and wanted to get back but I have never heard back again and I don't intend to waste anymore of my time with them either. I had some steel brackets made on my own and took care of my problem, so much for the fabulous 2 year warranty.

The 2 year warranty is good if they (Genuine) is not Inconvenienced, they need to think outside the box and actually honor their warrant even if there is no dealer aroudn, but it's alright. I still love this scooter and I don't excpect and don't count on it either, that anyone is going to do anything about it. I'll as usual take care of things on my own.

It's just like Elvis used to say TCB.

Hellvis · Post by **Hellvis** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:55 pm

Hellvis wrote:Well I called a while ago and they seemed interested and wanted to get back but I have never heard back again and I don't intend to waste anymore of my time with them either. I had some steel brackets made on my own and took care of my problem, so much for the fabulous 2 year warranty.

The 2 year warranty is good if they (Genuine) is not Inconvenienced, they need to think outside the box and actually honor their warrant even if there is no dealer aroudn, but it's alright. I still love this scooter and I don't excpect and don't count on it either, that anyone is going to do anything about it. I'll as usual take care of things on my own.

It's just like Elvis used to say TCB.

UPDATE

I have received a very friendly and considered phone call from Genuine this week. Massimo was really interested in the problem and he told me that they would keep me in the loop on what their investigation will determine. Meanwhile I will receive a replacement bracket, so at least I will have a back up. What surprised to me is that he told me that only 2 owners have reported this problem. I imagine there could be many factors why only 2 owners have come forward and reported it to Genuine. My personal opinion is, that it could be possible that some don't own the scooter or ride it long enough to have the tires changed out as I did and therefore they haven't seen or noticed the problem, but again this is my personal opinion, I really don't know what the reason is.

Anyways, I just wanted everyone to know that I did receive a call back now and that the caller was genuinly interested in helping me - us the customers.

HowHH · Post by **HowHH** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:15 pm

Thanks for the update, Hellvis.

I never reported the problem to Genuine, as I am the second owner and therefore no warranty. To add to my post above, I was surprised that the mounting plate/bracket was made out of aluminum, especially where the stock bracket is steel.

Do you know how I can contact the individual you were in contact with at Genuine? I'd like to let them know that there are more scooters out there than the two they know of. This seems especially relevant now that they are coming out with the Psycho with the NCY big brake kit.

As I mentioned in a previous post I had to purchase a whole new big brake kit, even though I didn't need a new rotor, because the bracket was not available separately.

Also, you mention that you had a bracket made out of steel. Did you have whole new brackets fabricated or just something to reinforce? A friend of mine with some machining skills thinks he could fabricate a replacement bracket out of stainless steel using my old bracket as a template, but if it would be possible to obtain/purchase a replacement bracket from whoever fabricated yours that might be they way to go. Any pics?