Road Sense

[teabow1]

I've been watching some clips of scooter/motorcycle accidents on the road and there are quite a few where the scooterist/motorcyclist is at fault. Some are due to the fault of the other driver but maybe there are techniques a skilled scooterist could use to get them out of a dicey situation.

Anyhow, I'm wondering how much road sense the MSF basic rider course teaches and have students practice. From what little I know, much of the practice of the basic rider course is in a parking lot, so not real life roads.

Although I am an experienced bicyclist on the road, I think the speed at which a scooter goes and also how often scooters can ride IN traffic makes the two-wheeling experience quite a bit different.

Seeing these videos of accidents makes me even more eager to enroll in a road sense course for scooterist/motorcyclist. Unfortunately, the newly developed Street Rider Course is not currently available in North Carolina.

[siobhan]

[snip]...and also how often scooters can ride IN traffic...[snip]

Scooters always ride IN traffic. It's a motor vehicle and takes the lane. If the scooter/motorbike cannot keep close to the posted speed limit on a particular road, it shouldn't be ridden on that road.

That said, I do sometimes pull over into the deep right of my lane and give a hand wave to indicate the driver can safely pass. I do this both on my scooters and motorcycles. It's illegal but sometimes I just don't want someone plastered to my ass or that anxious feeling of someone trying to push me to ride faster than I want. And in Quebec, I'd be a squashed pancake if I didn't.

Here's a fun "scooter riding tips" PDF booklet from MSF (Motorcycle Safety Foundation).

And a word of advice: stop watching crash videos. I won't even read faceplant threads. My boyfriend does and will sometimes relate interesting information as a learning exercise, but it's just too much.

I had to take an off-ramp of I95 less than a week after a motorcyclist was killed, sliding into a light pole, who also happened to be the son of the janitor where my boyfriend works. I was a wreck approaching the exit, and even worse after I saw where he must have hit. If you start thinking about all the horror, it'll mess you up.

[Jenetic]

If you start thinking about all the horror, it'll mess you up.

Thank you for saying that. I know it's important to have some grasp of reality on the danger level and maybe there's something to be gained from reading about other's crashes but it sure is discouraging as a newbie.

Is there a "who HASN'T crashed?" thread? I searched but didn't see anything. It's pretty intimidating when almost every rider you come into contact with has crashed at one time or another. I guess you just accept that it will probably happen at some point & just try to be as prepared as possible but it is a weird thing to think that one is willingly accepting this as par for the course of starting a new hobby/sport.

[teabow1]

[snip]...and also how often scooters can ride IN traffic...[snip]

Scooters always ride IN traffic. It's a motor vehicle and takes the lane. If the scooter/motorbike cannot keep close to the posted speed limit on a particular road, it shouldn't be ridden on that road..

I think you're wrong here. Except for limited access highways, basically scooters and bicycles can go on any road. The NC motorcycle book and other bicycle books (I'm combining the two-wheel modes to talk here) basically say that when you can't keep up with traffic ride to the right of the right hand lane. This isn't riding on the shoulder. The shoulder is not part of the lane.

In « Effective Cycling », basically the "Bible" for bicyclists, it is suggested that when you can't ride at the speed or around speed of traffic (which is most of the time) you ride on the right side of the right lane. AGain, this isn't the shoulder. The shoulder is not to be ridden on generally.

Given that logic for bicyclists, any scooter that can't keep up close to speed (I'm thinking a 50cc scooter on a 50mph road that isn't a freeway) then it would seem the scooter should ride on the right hand side of the road. As a bicyclist, when I am on such roads, that's what I do. So why can't a scooter do that?

Of course, bigger scooters are not going to have problem and can ride IN traffic all the time.

[teabow1]

Just thought of an example.

Many of you probably have heard of California's Highway 1, a coastal highway (not freeway) that cars go I think around 60mph. On the stretch from Santa Cruz to San Francisco, which I am very familiar with having ridden on it many times on a bicycle, I ride on the very wide shoulder like most bicyclists do. The shoulder on this segment of Highway 1 is generally the width of a lane and is safe to ride on.

What would a scooter of 50cc do in such a situation? Ride IN the middle of the lane? I don't think so. I'd think they'd probably ride on the right hand side of the right land. Or, would you say the 50cc scooter shouldn't be on that road at all? Well, bicyclists bike up and down this portion of Highway 1 on the way to San Francisco all the time, so why should a 50cc scooter not go on it?

[teabow1]

I looked at the MSF scooter book previously and also looked at it again when it was linked here. It doesn't say anything about not riding in the right hand side of the right land except it discusses riding in the center of the road when there is a tailgater. Maybe I missed something. Don't know.

Basically, I think the logic of how bicyclists navigate the road would be the same for very small cc scooters when they cannot keep up with traffic on the road. However, those situations are much more rare for scooters than they are for bicyclists. While bicyclists have every right to use the road, they also cannot be blocking traffic. Hence, the suggestion of riding on the right hand side of the right lane when you can't keep up with traffic. That's what I learnt.

It's a moot point for most scooterists in many of their riding situations any how. And for other scooterists with bigger cc's, it's a totally moot point.

==============

I don't think watching scooter/motorcycle accidents is necessarily discouraging for a newbie. It all depends on what is your intent in watching those videos, and to not let your fear overtake you. The reason I started watching these kinds of accidents was because I wanted to LEARN what are some of the road sense issues that a bicyclists (which I am one and an experienced one) would not encounter or not likely to encounter?

One that I see often in these crashes is that a lot of scooterist/motorcyclist seem to have a false sense of speed and control. They cross intersections without making sure that no one is about to make a left turn, or they overtake without shoulder checking. The speed of the scooter/motorcycle can give the rider a false impression that they can very quickly skimp across or skimp over without danger. Wrong. I think a bicyclist wouldn't often have this false sense because, well, we are generally rather slow both on the uptake and while cruising.

[teabow1]

If you start thinking about all the horror, it'll mess you up.

Thank you for saying that. I know it's important to have some grasp of reality on the danger level and maybe there's something to be gained from reading about other's crashes but it sure is discouraging as a newbie.

Is there a "who HASN'T crashed?" thread? I searched but didn't see anything. It's pretty intimidating when almost every rider you come into contact with has crashed at one time or another. I guess you just accept that it will probably happen at some point & just try to be as prepared as possible but it is a weird thing to think that one is willingly accepting this as par for the course of starting a new hobby/sport.

I think it's right to accept that crashing is a possibility but do not accept it is an inevitability. I started reading David Hough's « Proficient Motorcycling » and he seems to be taking this kind of attitude. Don't think crashing is inevitable.

[Edwub]

I get the impression from some of your posts that you consider a 50cc to be a faster bicycle. I would agree with an above poster that you're [almost] always IN traffic. The pullover to let someone pass is the rare exception, not the norm.

Btw, you are aware of NC's requirements?

"You must be age 16 or older to operate a moped on North Carolina highways or public vehicular areas. A driver's license is not required, and the moped does not have to be registered, inspected or covered by liability insurance. A motorcycle safety helmet is required by law when operating a moped on North Carolina highways. A moped cannot have a motor of more than 50 cubic centimeters, an external shifting device or have the capability of exceeding 30 miles per hour on a level surface."

I wouldn't ride a 50cc scooter on a 50mph road. Very small cc scooters aren't supposed to emulate bicycles - again, you should always (or at least 95%) of the time be IN traffic, as commented above.

Very small cc scooters should choose an alternate route.

And I say this with 2.5 years exp on a 50, and in a state that considers any 50cc scooter to be equal to a 1000cc Harley. No alternate tags, req's or moped issues to tack on top, so WOT wasn't an issue.

[TVB]

Just thought of an example.

Many of you probably have heard of California's Highway 1, a coastal highway (not freeway) that cars go I think around 60mph. On the stretch from Santa Cruz to San Francisco, which I am very familiar with having ridden on it many times on a bicycle, I ride on the very wide shoulder like most bicyclists do. The shoulder on this segment of Highway 1 is generally the width of a lane and is safe to ride on.

What would a scooter of 50cc do in such a situation? Ride IN the middle of the lane? I don't think so. I'd think they'd probably ride on the right hand side of the right land. Or, would you say the 50cc scooter shouldn't be on that road at all? Well, bicyclists bike up and down this portion of Highway 1 on the way to San Francisco all the time, so why should a 50cc scooter not go on it?

Because a bicycle can keep out of traffic, and a 50cc scooter cannot.

In general, I'd say that a bicycle shouldn't be on a road where the cars go 60mph. But if there's a shoulder as wide as you describe on this highway (effectively a bike lane), I'd make an exception for an experienced cyclist who keeps his distance from traffic, knows how to handle the vortex of a passing semi, and keeps his eyes open for debris. It's reasonably safe.

But a scooter – of any size – doesn't belong on that shoulder, no matter how wide and spacious it is. First, because that's where the bicyclists in the preceding paragraph go to protect themselves from motor vehicles. Second, because it's illegal. A 50cc scooter must ride in a traffic lane, and even if you follow the vehicle code of many states and ride in the right-most lane and stay to the right, it's still in traffic. If you aren't keeping up with traffic, when a vehicle overtakes you, they have to do slow down and/or do a lane change to get around you. If they're going 60 and you're only doing 30-40, that's a serious hazard. (Most traffic accidents on highways involve substantial differences in speed.)

Does a 50cc scooter have a legal right to be on that highway that isn't a limited-access expressway? Sure. But that doesn't make it a good idea, any more than taking an expressway-legal 125cc scooter into Detroit on I-96 during rush hour.

I say this from experience. As part of my first big road trip, I rode US-2 (in the UP of Michigan) from St Ignace to Manistique. It's not an expressway (just a highway), and it's really the only practical way to get from A to B, so I figured it'd have to do. The speed limit is 55mph, which means most traffic cruises at 60. It was horrible. I rode on the right edge of the right lane, to make myself as easy to pass as I could, but I was still in the way. I pulled over and stopped frequently, not to rest, but to let traffic pass me. At one point I even had a semi tailgate me, pass me without doing a full lane change, and start pulling back to the right before his trailer had cleared me (I had to brake and fall back to avoid getting run off the road).

I'll brave the Mackinac Bridge again (which isn't even legal). I'll ride my scooter to Reeds Lake on occasionally-icy roads to watch outdoor hockey again. I'll commute in darkness in the rain at 35ºF (like today). I frequently take my 40mph scooter on 45mph roads around town, because I consider that "safe enough". But I won't ride my scooter on a road like US-2 again.

[Jenetic]

I think it's right to accept that crashing is a possibility but do not accept it is an inevitability. I started reading David Hough's « Proficient Motorcycling » and he seems to be taking this kind of attitude. Don't think crashing is inevitable.

I don't have any problem accepting that it is a possibility. I DO have a problem with it seeming inevitable. I wouldn't normally think this way (I'm not ordinarily a negative person) and DIDN'T think this way when I first became interested but... Truth is, without ANY hyperbole, nearly everyone I have had contact with regarding scooter or mc riding especially in my area has had an accident. (typically more than one) I don't mean 50%. I mean like 80-90% or more. That is why it seems inevitable and why I was thinking of starting a "Who HASN'T crashed?" thread just to try to balance it out a bit. (if there are enough to counterbalance the crash thread even a little) I don't want to think it's inevitable but I have little evidence to the contrary at this point.

[bigbropgo]

^agree. If you can't go the speed limit, then you should not be on the road. Its a danger to you and others. Scoots are really fun. But not a toy or a motorized bike. (Not sayin you thought these things)

[Edwub]

Note to TVB's post:

some states DO have restrictions against 50cc scooter/mopeds going on any street with a "minimum speed limit of " XYZ. Minimum speed limit is typically defined as the min speed to not cause or delay traffic or be a danger on the road. Tricky, as it's pretty subjective or contextual.

Recently looked up it up for a diff thread, I think the poster was from Georgia and the "minimum speed limit" was 35 maybe? Which I guess would mean any street with a posted maximum limit of 45mph and up would be off limits.

I'm actually really glad California treats them all the same. So much easier.

[pdxrita]

<snip>why I was thinking of starting a "Who HASN'T crashed?" thread just to try to balance it out a bit. (if there are enough to counterbalance the crash thread even a little) I don't want to think it's inevitable but I have little evidence to the contrary at this point.

viewtopic.php?t=15991

[TVB]

That is why it seems inevitable and why I was thinking of starting a "Who HASN'T crashed?" thread just to try to balance it out a bit.

There is one. It just isn't the sort of topic that gets a lot of traffic, because no one ever thinks to add "I still haven't crashed!"*

Assuming that you will crash eventually is a good mindset to have when equipping yourself with protective gear. But I agree that it's too fatalistic. I haven't yet, and statistically I'm no more likely to crash in the next 12.5K miles than I was in the first. You should get on the scooter every time thinking like an alcoholic: "I'm not going to crash today."

*or that Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.

[Jenetic]

<snip>why I was thinking of starting a "Who HASN'T crashed?" thread just to try to balance it out a bit. (if there are enough to counterbalance the crash thread even a little) I don't want to think it's inevitable but I have little evidence to the contrary at this point.

viewtopic.php?t=15991

Thank you. I did search but I guess it was too low in the results & I didn't see it. Or I don't know how to search here efficiently.

Assuming that you will crash eventually is a good mindset to have when equipping yourself with protective gear. But I agree that it's too fatalistic. I haven't yet, and statistically I'm no more likely to crash in the next 12.5K miles than I was in the first. You should get on the scooter every time thinking like an alcoholic: "I'm not going to crash today."

This my plan but a little extra encouragement from those who have managed not to crash is appreciated. (Especially if there are any in LA.)

I see the OP of the "Who HASN'T crashed thread?" is in LA. I'm not alone in my paranoia.

[teabow1]

By the way, someone said I'm kinda regarding 50cc's as motorised bicycles. They are right. Within the context of North Carolina laws, it does seem to me that they regard 50cc's as motorised bicycles and this is where I've built up my impression.

I believe as I was going through North Carolina's motorcycle handbook that they did say something about riding on the right hand side of the right lane (again, not the shoulder) if your scooter cannot keep up. Now, in most urban environments that's not going to be true. The 50cc will be able to keep up or be at a good enough speed.

In North Carolina, 50cc's are not tagged, not titled, not insurable (as far as I can tell). My previous state, California, seems to treat 50cc's differently. I haven't gone through the code for CA but from what I interpret how others talk about it, 50cc's need to be licensed or registered and are not allowed in bike lanes. NC isn't clear about whether 50cc's can be in bike lanes. Generally, I would think it's not a good idea but there are some exceptions. In any case, there are also many cases where using an existing bike lane IS A BAD IDEA FOR BICYCLIST due to poor traffic planning in the U.S. But I won't go into that here.

[teabow1]

By the way, whoever posted the CA Motorcycle handbook, thanks a bunch! A very good source of information. I can't recommend enough that handbook and how really good it is compared to what we have in NC!! NC's motorcycle handbook is quite paltry. NC does have different regulations. For instance, for all legal purposes there is no such thing as a scooter in NC. Anything 50cc or below is a bicycle. Anything above 50cc is a motorcycle.

[Uncle Groucho]

Note to TVB's post:

Recently looked up it up for a diff thread, I think the poster was from Georgia and the "minimum speed limit" was 35 maybe? Which I guess would mean any street with a posted maximum limit of 45mph and up would be off limits.

It was me; the code for Georgia says I cannot be on "limited access roadways" where the posted minimum speed limit was above 35. Since most of the surface streets here are zoned 35-45 I can navigate just fine. Would I take my 50cc on anything zoned above 45? No, because I'd want to survive my journey. People in Atlanta are insane! And I'm a native so I can say that.

As for the OP, the course takes place in a parking lot because there are too many variables having x number of students of varying skill en masse on the roadway. My course was in a parking lot; one the size of a football field with no-one there. Loads of space to stretch out and hit 12-15 MPH which is plenty fast when doing a turning exercise.

Part of the course is learning that you do belong in traffic. If you don't occupy the lane and assert yourself, other people are going to run you down. It's your lane; own it!

[teabow1]

Part of the course is learning that you do belong in traffic. If you don't occupy the lane and assert yourself, other people are going to run you down. It's your lane; own it!

That does make sense and the bicyclist guru of the bicycle world (John Forrester) says the same thing, but with the caveat of that right hand side of right lane when we can't keep up. I'm sure it's different with scooters since they can go so much faster. Like I said earlier, it's mostly a moot point since scooters even at the 50cc range generally can keep up on city roads

[iMoses]

...nearly everyone I have had contact with regarding scooter or mc riding especially in my area has had an accident. (typically more than one) I don't mean 50%. I mean like 80-90% or more. That is why it seems inevitable...

In all the years of both driving (cage) and riding (scoots) I've been in accidents.
2 or 3 in a cage... one minor fender bender in parking lot my fault
1 on scoot... my fault

When we hurl around the street (or parking lots) at any speed the risks of accidents happening are there. Nothing short of staying at home will ever change that.

[jijifer]

Just thought of an example.

Many of you probably have heard of California's Highway 1, a coastal highway (not freeway) that cars go I think around 60mph. On the stretch from Santa Cruz to San Francisco, which I am very familiar with having ridden on it many times on a bicycle, I ride on the very wide shoulder like most bicyclists do. The shoulder on this segment of Highway 1 is generally the width of a lane and is safe to ride on.

What would a scooter of 50cc do in such a situation? Ride IN the middle of the lane? I don't think so. I'd think they'd probably ride on the right hand side of the right land. Or, would you say the 50cc scooter shouldn't be on that road at all? Well, bicyclists bike up and down this portion of Highway 1 on the way to San Francisco all the time, so why should a 50cc scooter not go on it?

In this specific scenario - in california scooters are not allowed in the bike lane and a 150cc is required to be on the highways. So simple enough no- you can't take a 50cc on the 101 and be within the law.

California is special (in lots of ways) 50cc scooters require a M1 license, registration and insurance. Because it's a registered vehicle, it is not allowed access to bike lines. In addition, Cali states you need a min of 150cc to be on its highways. While a 125 maybe able to disguise itself well enough, a 50cc can't. If you're choosing a 50cc you should consider yourself to roads that have posted speeds of 40mph or less. Specifically because in NC, where a 50cc isn't required to be registered (because it's not supposed to be able to go more than 35mph), if you're going over 35mph, you're breaking the law already

It's not safe to take a vehicle into traffic it can't keep up with. Whether it's legal where you are to take your scooter into a bike lane is something only your local laws can tell you. But if you limit yourself to 50cc then you're best to limit your routes to 40mph posted speed limit roads as that's the only way to ensure you're within the laws and riding your scoot as it was intended.

[jijifer]

and as far as what MSF taught me about how to ride my scooter safely and I think it's very, very true on a featherlight scooter like the Buddy:

Look where you want to go. NOT where you do NOT want to go.

Maybe, in part, why it's not ideal to watch crashes over and over. Our scooters tend to go whereever we're looking. So you see a pothole and think "I don't want to hit that" while looking it - chances are you'll hit it dead on. See the pothole and look at where you want to go to miss it and you usually do. I have seen it happen a few times and I'm pretty sure that's how I was hit - I mean, my scooter is only about 1.5ft wide, the lane is what, 9ft wide? there was WAY more ways not to hit me than to hit me with another scooter!

If you watch crashes over and over you're likely to do exactly as you see vs correct what you see.

Always look through the curve and always look where you want to go. That's easily the best piece of advice I learned at MSF.

[teabow1]

In this specific scenario - in california scooters are not allowed in the bike lane and a 150cc is required to be on the highways. So simple enough no- you can't take a 50cc on the 101 and be within the law.

California is special (in lots of ways) 50cc scooters require a M1 license, registration and insurance. Because it's a registered vehicle, it is not allowed access to bike lines. In addition, Cali states you need a min of 150cc to be on its highways. While a 125 maybe able to disguise itself well enough, a 50cc can't. If you're choosing a 50cc you should consider yourself to roads that have posted speeds of 40mph or less. Specifically because in NC, where a 50cc isn't required to be registered (because it's not supposed to be able to go more than 35mph), if you're going over 35mph, you're breaking the law already

It's not safe to take a vehicle into traffic it can't keep up with. Whether it's legal where you are to take your scooter into a bike lane is something only your local laws can tell you. But if you limit yourself to 50cc then you're best to limit your routes to 40mph posted speed limit roads as that's the only way to ensure you're within the laws and riding your scoot as it was intended.

Highway 1 is not a freeway nor is it a limited access road. In fact, there are many houses whose driveways extend into highway one, or where state parks have their entrances at. To get to Half Moon Bay, you ultimately have to be on Highway 1. To get to Davenport you also have to be on Highway 1 to get there.

Given this scenario, what should a 50cc in California do? Bicyclists are allowed on at least the portion from San Francisco all the way down to Carmel (the parts I've been on, but I'm sure the entire Highway 1 is allowed).

[Dooglas]

Given this scenario, what should a 50cc in California do? Bicyclists are allowed on at least the portion from San Francisco all the way down to Carmel (the parts I've been on, but I'm sure the entire Highway 1 is allowed).

Well, I'll tell you what I would do. Never ride a 50cc scooter on Highway 1 or any other higher speed roadway (such as Highway 101 in Oregon). They are really not a good match for riding conditions of that kind. And there is no point in comparing a 50cc scooter to a bicycle. Scooters are motor vehicles and that is all there is to say about that.

[teabow1]

Okay, fair enough. It's the first time I've heard of where a bicycle can go (and is popularly ridden on) but a 50cc scooter wouldn't. And not talking about trails for non-motorised vehicles. Oh well....!

[Cheshire]

Wait...NC has urban areas and roads with shoulders??

As a former avid road cyclist, I'd say if the speed limit is above 45, you might think hard about limiting your time on that road if you go with a 50cc.
I ended up with a 125cc as my first motorized two wheels. I was a strong enough cyclist that I regularly paced 50cc's around town, and wanted the change of pace of keeping up with traffic. A 125 can go on any country highway (ie: everything not interstate) and most cities' beltway/bypasses. Especially in NC, you can get just about anywhere without ever touching an interstate. It's light enough that I adjusted very, very quickly. A "cheat" I used my first month (and during break-in) was I had dots of white-out at half-throttle and 3/4 throttle positions. I was pacing motorcycles across county lines (much to their chagrin) in no time.

[LunaP]

By the way, someone said I'm kinda regarding 50cc's as motorised bicycles. They are right. Within the context of North Carolina laws, it does seem to me that they regard 50cc's as motorised bicycles and this is where I've built up my impression.

I believe as I was going through North Carolina's motorcycle handbook that they did say something about riding on the right hand side of the right lane (again, not the shoulder) if your scooter cannot keep up. Now, in most urban environments that's not going to be true. The 50cc will be able to keep up or be at a good enough speed.

In North Carolina, 50cc's are not tagged, not titled, not insurable (as far as I can tell). My previous state, California, seems to treat 50cc's differently. I haven't gone through the code for CA but from what I interpret how others talk about it, 50cc's need to be licensed or registered and are not allowed in bike lanes. NC isn't clear about whether 50cc's can be in bike lanes. Generally, I would think it's not a good idea but there are some exceptions. In any case, there are also many cases where using an existing bike lane IS A BAD IDEA FOR BICYCLIST due to poor traffic planning in the U.S. But I won't go into that here.

Before I say any of this... these are for VA, not NC or anywhere else...

But here, scooters (regardless of cc's) are part of the traffic flow. They are not allowed on the shoulder, sidewalk (unless they are parked and 50cc), or bike lanes, and lane sharing (i.e., riding to the extreme right of the right lane and letting others take the lane with you) is strictly taught against (maybe illegal). If you cannot keep up with traffic, do not drive the road. I am 90% sure that we have a similar restriction to GA's, in that 50cc's (mopeds) aren't allowed on roads with speed limits higher than a certain limit, even if they can technically match it, or come close.

These are definitely questions your MSF course instructor could answer, though- he/she will know the specific regulations for your state. Keep in mind, some smaller cc scooters may fall strangely between regulations... that's the case here, both in operation and parking (we also do not technically legall define 'scooter'... just motorcycle and moped).

[ericalm]

Just thought of an example.

Many of you probably have heard of California's Highway 1, a coastal highway (not freeway) that cars go I think around 60mph. On the stretch from Santa Cruz to San Francisco, which I am very familiar with having ridden on it many times on a bicycle, I ride on the very wide shoulder like most bicyclists do. The shoulder on this segment of Highway 1 is generally the width of a lane and is safe to ride on.

What would a scooter of 50cc do in such a situation? Ride IN the middle of the lane? I don't think so. I'd think they'd probably ride on the right hand side of the right land. Or, would you say the 50cc scooter shouldn't be on that road at all? Well, bicyclists bike up and down this portion of Highway 1 on the way to San Francisco all the time, so why should a 50cc scooter not go on it?

The laws for motorized vehicles are different than bicycles. You cannot safely approach riding them on the road in the same way. Not everything you can or are "supposed" to do on a bicycle translates to riding a scooter. This goes for safe and sensible riding practices, among other things.

CHP will rightfully kick a 50cc off the CA-1 for not being able to keep up with traffic. I've a friend who was kicked off while riding a pokey (but faster than a 50cc scooter) vintage 150. In most states, you have to be able to maintain either minimum speeds or keep up with traffic on various different types of roadways.

What's a 50cc rider to do? Stay the hell off CA-1. Not a freeway, but a state highway, with posted speed limits of 55mph in some sections.

Not all scooters and vehicles are safe—or appropriate—for all roadways, regardless of legality. Riding to the side of the road if you can't keep up with traffic is dangerous.

I just skimmed through the NC Motorcycle Handbook and couldn't find anywhere where they advise riding on the right side of the road. In fact, they generally promote staying on the left side of the lane, remaining visible, and not sharing lanes. Your MSF instructors would likely tell you the same: Don't do this unless you're pulling over to stop or get off the road. You'll eventually find yourself going from the Who Hasn't Crashed thread to the Who's Crashed one.

[TVB]

Riding to the side of the road if you can't keep up with traffic is dangerous.

While that's true, I think it's less dangerous than riding further to the left. For what it's worth, Michigan traffic code agrees with me: the right side of the right-most lane is where "mopeds" are told to ride, based on the assumption that we won't be able to keep up with traffic.

If you're riding significantly slower than traffic (I'm talking 10mph or more under prevailing speeds), other vehicles will pass you. It doesn't matter where in the lane you're riding; they're going to put you in their rear-view mirror. Given that fact, it's safer if you make that as quick and easy for them as possible. Staying to the right, giving them the option of passing you with a half lane-change, makes it quicker and easier. The risk of collision with you is roughly equal; the risk of them colliding with an oncoming car is less, and that translates into a smaller danger of you become the third in their middle-of-the-road clusterfuck. I don't recommend putting yourself in that situation, but if you're in it, the realpolitik of staying to the right is better than blockading Cuba by asserting your right to the full lane.

[teabow1]

From the NC Motorcycle book. When the quote below refers to path 1, 2, 3, they mean left, centre, right. Note that they do not advice against riding in path 3 (right). It's all up to the circumstances and judgement.

In general, there is no single best position for riders to be seen and to maintain a space cushion around the motorcycle. No portion of the lane need be avoided — including the center.

Position yourself in the portion of the lane where you are most likely to be seen and you can maintain a space cushion around you. Change position as traffic situations change. Ride in path 2 or 3 if vehicles and other potential problems are on your left only. Remain in path 1 or 2 if hazards are on your right only. If vehicles are being operated on both sides of you, the center of the lane, path 2, is usually your best option.

The oily strip in the center portion that collects drippings from cars is usually no more than two feet wide. Unless the road is wet, the average center strip permits adequate traction to ride on safely. You can operate to the left or right of the grease strip and still be within the center portion of the traffic lane. Avoid riding on big buildups of oil and grease usually found at busy intersections or toll booths.

And now from the NC Driver's Handbook, it clearly states that the moped should travel on the right side of the road. Mopeds are 50cc and smaller. This is from page 99 of the NC Driver's Handbook:

• Motorcycles are entitled to the full width of their lane. To pass a motorcycle, you must change lanes and pass in the same manner as you would for a larger motor vehicle;

• A moped should travel using the right side of the lane. To pass a moped, you must stay at least two feet to the left; and

Now, regardless of what the law actually says, I think it's more prudent to actually do what is safe. Sometimes traffic laws are wrong and there are cases when yes, they do not make sense.

Let me give you an example, though this is not "law". Many wide roads have bicycle lanes, especially in Northern Calfornia. However, those bicycle lanes are not always the best places to bike on. They can be filled with trash (often is) or is often partially occupied by a car. Or, if not occupied by a car, a car is just right next to the bike lane such that when the car door opens, BANG, it hits a cyclist. So, often times the better thing to do is ride OUTSIDE of the bike lane into the car lane.

[teabow1]

to continue:

from having read the NC motorcycle handbook and driver's handbook, it is why I came up with the idea that when a 50cc can keep up with traffic, ride IN the centre of the lane but when it cannot, ride on the right handside of the lane.

Regardless of law, I think it makes safety sense. However, how often is a 50cc going to have to do that in suburbia or urbana? Probably not often. There are however some roads that are not limted access that go faster than a 50cc normally could and is the main thoroughfare between towns.

And then, there are situations where indeed a 50cc shouldnt.

In California, as I understand now, a 50cc is licensed etc. Regardless of what the law says, let's imagine how a 50cc would ride on Highway 1. Again, HIghway 1 is VERY much frequented by bicyclists who go up and down it at least between Santa Cruz and San Francisco. I've done it many times myself. I can see two scenarios for a 50cc. One, to right on the right handside of the right lane (Highway 1 is typically only a single lane road each way in this portion), or to ride on the wide shoulder but not gunning it at 35mph on the shoulder but maybe more like 25 mph on the shoulder.

These are two possible scenarios, I guess. I'm not sure which one I would take (not thinking legal terms right now). What surprises me is that if a bicycle can go on a certain vehicular road that a 50cc would not. That's just bizarre! But, if we go back into the realm of law, okay, then so be it.

[teabow1]

And I just want to make sure that when I say "right hand side of the right lane" we are NOT talking about shoulder. Like the NC motorcycle book says, a lane can be divided into left, centre, and right. The right in this case is the right portion of the lane, not the shoulder.

[TVB]

from having read the NC motorcycle handbook and driver's handbook, it is why I came up with the idea that when a 50cc can keep up with traffic, ride IN the centre of the lane but when it cannot, ride on the right handside of the lane.

I agree, except to suggest that the center of the lane tends to accumulate oil, loose debris, etc, making the left side (following the other car-tire track) generally safer.

Regardless of law, I think it makes safety sense. However, how often is a 50cc going to have to do that in suburbia or urbana? Probably not often. There are however some roads that are not limted access that go faster than a 50cc normally could and is the main thoroughfare between towns.

My recommendation in that case is to take a different route. Not only will it be safer, it'll be a nicer ride. It might take a little longer, but what's the downside of spending more time scooting? Asserting your right to use a road isn't worth it when the alternative is enjoying the trip more.

Regardless of what the law says, let's imagine how a 50cc would ride on Highway 1. Again, HIghway 1 is VERY much frequented by bicyclists who go up and down it at least between Santa Cruz and San Francisco. I've done it many times myself. I can see two scenarios for a 50cc. One, to right on the right handside of the right lane (Highway 1 is typically only a single lane road each way in this portion), or to ride on the wide shoulder but not gunning it at 35mph on the shoulder but maybe more like 25 mph on the shoulder.

I wouldn't recommend either of them. Understand: I've done it, using both strategies. And I'm saying they're both bad ideas.

What surprises me is that if a bicycle can go on a certain vehicular road that a 50cc would not. That's just bizarre!

Unexpected, but not really so bizarre. Any kind of vehicle is going to find routes that aren't suited to it. Trucks over a certain size can't cross this bridge. Motorcycles under a certain size can't ride that expressway. Motor vehicles of any kind can't go on this path or in that lane. Wheeled vehicles except for wheelchairs might not be permitted on this path. There are plenty of busy surface streets safe for cars, scooters, and pedestrians, but not bicycles. There's a 60mph highway near here with a pedestrian-only path alongside; bikes and 50ccs have to go elsewhere.

But, if we go back into the realm of law, okay, then so be it.

Staying off a road like that isn't just the law: it's also a good idea.

[jijifer]

Most roads are banked for runoff purposes so the debris is most likely on the side of either lane (if on facebook, friend Electra bikes and see the "bike lane juju" pics. Crazy shit ends up on the sides of roads).The unintended consequence of driving slowly and disrupting the flow of traffic on a scooter not suited for the road is what it means for the rest of us: aggression by cagers that think all scooters are slow and will disrupt traffic. I'm amazed when I look down and am doing 75bmph on the 101 where 55mph is the limit and cars are revving at high rmps trying to pass me because they don't notice how fast we are going and are just assuming I'm slower because I'm on a scooter.

There is no good spot for a 50cc on a road that has more than 35mph as the max speed limit. A scooter is not a bicycle. Different rules apply. It is moot to compare the two scenarios.

Having been a bicycle commuter of 6 years taught me: I don't want to die or be maimed proving I have the right of way. A car will always win that fight. You wouldnt even have had the right of way in the scenarios you're proposing!

We, as a public forum, can't really in good conscience tell you how to best ride your scooter dangerously so it may be best to put this thread to bed.

[Dooglas]

And, of course, riding in the right portion of a lane encourages cars to pass you in your lane - not in the adjacent lane as they should. After you have had a car go by you 6 inches away to the left while you pass parked vehicles, curbs, whatever 6 inches to the right - it will occur to you that is not someplace you want to be nor something you want to encourage another driver to do.

(as others have said - position yourself in your lane to your best advantage)

[LunaP]

I don't have a 50cc, but most of the roads I ride on are 30-40mph roads and the speeds I go are no different.

I ride in the center, or center-ish of the lane (by that, I mean center-right of the left lane, and center-left of the right lane) that way I am most visible to cars around me, but still have room between the lane beside me and my scoot.

It serves me well. The law is not really going to tell you where in the road to ride. Furthermore, riding to the right of the road is SILLY. If you're forced to ride on a road where you are slower than traffic (which may not be your fault- you could be going the limit, and everybody else on the road pacing 5-10 mph over... that happens on some roads here)... move to the right and wave people over if they are riding your arse and being a problem, but otherwise, ride where you are visible and own the lane- there isn't a reason not to! You are a vehicle and you belong on the road. If they want to pass you, they can do so.

[charlie55]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the law is a fantasy and the street is the reality.

Also, I have no beef with 50cc scooters. I'm even thinking of picking one up for short-haul errands and such. However, I cannot for the life of me understand why some folks insist on using them in marginal situations while figuratively waving around a handful of statutes as if they were some magical shield of invulnerability. If you have even the slightest doubt as to a 50's suitability to your riding environment, then why not just cut the Gordian knot and go bigger?

[TVB]

There is no good spot for a 50cc on a road that has more than 35mph as the max speed limit.

I'd distinguish here between a restricted scooter (max speed 30mph) vs. derestricted (max speed 40mph). If a scooter has a maximum speed of 40mph, and traffic is light, traveling on a 45mph road isn't necessarily problematic. I don't do it a lot on a day-to-day basis riding around the city (I have no reason to), but when my destination is on a 45mph road (like the shop where I go for maintenance), I go ahead and ride on that road whatever minimum is necessary to get to it.

Riding cross-country, I've actually spent a bit of time on 45mph roads, usually without any trouble. Part of that's because I'm deliberately choosing roads that aren't the fastest way of getting any place, so they're less-traveled and those traveling on them aren't usually in so much of a hurry.

If these kinds of roads are busy, they suck for a 50cc, no denying that. But if there's little oncoming traffic, drivers coming up behind you at 5-10mph faster can pass you easily (which is where riding to the right comes in handy) and no harm is done. Or if it's a 4-lane road with moderate traffic, a scooter in the slow lane is trivially easy to get around, no different from coming up on a slower driver. Will cagers think you're going too slow because you're going under the speed limit? Yeah. But in my experience, 5-under doesn't trigger road rage or pose a serious safety risk, whereas 10-or-more-under increasingly will.

My point is that you have to judge the conditions on a case-by-case basis. I'm not a risk-taker; that seriously isn't in my nature. But I've lived long enough that when the risk seems small enough, and I can minimize it, I go for it.

[teabow1]

My recommendation in that case is to take a different route. Not only will it be safer, it'll be a nicer ride. It might take a little longer, but what's the downside of spending more time scooting? Asserting your right to use a road isn't worth it when the alternative is enjoying the trip more.

Ok. Not asserting the right to use the road. Hwy 1 between Santa Cruz and San Francisco is a scenic route, a route with lots of farms just off the Hwy. Some of the country's vegetables come from this area. There are small communities off of Hwy 1 including Davenport and Half Moon Bay and Montara.

[AWinn6889]

I'm sorry, but I remember someone arguing with me about how riding a scooter is very similar to riding a bike, in every way. Thank you all for proving me right for the most part, in that it really is VERY different.

Anyway, teabow, plain and simple. You should not be riding a 50cc on a 50mph road, despite the laws, and despite your handbook. It is not nearly fast enough, and all you are going to do is put yourself in greater and unnecessary danger, insight road rage and make the rest of us look like arse-hats.
You haven't even bought a scooter yet, why not consider a larger displacement? You even created a thread about possibly looking into a scooter for highway use.
Yes, maybe you are a good bicyclist (however you did admit that you run stop signs if you don't feel that there's a need to stop, which is a big no-no!) but if you are not an experienced scooterist or motorcyclist you should not be trying to squeeze by using nonsensical laws or guidelines from the handbook or whatever you have. You should ride to your ability, and if you're just starting out, even AFTER an MSF course, riding your 50cc on a 50mph posted "highway" is not to your ability, whether it is legal or not.

In my area there is a road that we would take on our trips up to the lake on my bf's motorcycle, but on the scooter, it's a whole different story. I have a 170i, the posted speed limit was 50-55, but there were a few hills on which I could not maintain speed, even if I WOT-ed it before the hill (and got up to 80bmph) and I'm not talking a giant Scranton, Pennsylvania type hill, I'm talking a fairly small, not-so-steep-grade hill. The next trip up there we took some other roads that were still a little hilly, but the posted speed was 45, that was no problem and I felt much safer. Keep in mind I have been riding motorcycles on road since (well, illegally) before I turned 16, and have been riding bicycles, dirt bikes, and ATVs since I could walk.... so I have a pretty decent "ability."

In my opinion a 50cc would just not cut it on a 50mph road IN traffic (whether you are to the right of your lane or the center or the left, you are indeed IN TRAFFIC) with all sorts of cages, from Smart cars to Semis and Dump trucks.
Do what you want, but I doubt you're going to get anyone here to tell you that that is any sort of a slightly good idea. If you absolutely cannot avoid this 50mph road, then you need to seriously think about a larger displacement scooter, or just take your bike if you do actually see so many people riding their bicycles there.

[ericalm]

From the NC Motorcycle book. When the quote below refers to path 1, 2, 3, they mean left, centre, right. Note that they do not advice against riding in path 3 (right). It's all up to the circumstances and judgement.

You're misreading this section. It's suggesting best lane positions relative to vehicles in front of you, behind you or in adjacent lanes. This in no way recommends sharing the lane you occupy with other vehicles. Tight side of the lane doesn't mean removing yourself from the flow of traffic.

You can get all sorts of advice here, but we cannot impart good judgement. I think it's pretty unanimous that riding on the right side of the road is a bad idea.

Not really sure there's much more to say about that.

[TVB]

Ok. Not asserting the right to use the road. Hwy 1 between Santa Cruz and San Francisco is a scenic route, a route with lots of farms just off the Hwy. Some of the country's vegetables come from this area. There are small communities off of Hwy 1 including Davenport and Half Moon Bay and Montara.

Are you saying it'd be a nice place to go for a ride, if not for the fact that the road apparently isn't safe for a 50cc scooter? Yeah, it probably would be. The Trail Ridge Road in Colorado has great views, but you need at least a 200cc engine to ride it. Sitka, Alaska is charming town to visit, but you can't get there by car, motorbike, or bicycle; you need to take a boat or plane. The woods of Isle Royale are lovely, dark and deep, but there are no roads and the trails aren't wheelchair accessible. Is all of this fair to those who can't walk, or who get airsick and seasick, or whose engines can't produce the power to get up the mountain? Perhaps not. But it's how things are.

[teabow1]

From the NC Motorcycle book. When the quote below refers to path 1, 2, 3, they mean left, centre, right. Note that they do not advice against riding in path 3 (right). It's all up to the circumstances and judgement.

You're misreading this section. It's suggesting best lane positions relative to vehicles in front of you, behind you or in adjacent lanes. This in no way recommends sharing the lane you occupy with other vehicles. Tight side of the lane doesn't mean removing yourself from the flow of traffic.

You can get all sorts of advice here, but we cannot impart good judgement. I think it's pretty unanimous that riding on the right side of the road is a bad idea.

Not really sure there's much more to say about that.

Really? The NC driver's handbook specifically says mopeds are to be ridden in the right handside of the right lane. Mopeds in NC statute is defined as two wheels of 50cc and lower.

I disagree that riding on the right hand side is necessarily dangerous. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

[teabow1]

Look, there's a lot of assumptions going on of what I would or wouldn't do with a 50cc. Of course you ride to your ability.

My only contention here is if a road allows a bicyclist to be on and allows other motorised vehicles to be on, why would it be dangerous for a 50cc to be on? It makes no sense. That's all.

-----

Regarding me "running stop signs" on a bicycle:

A bicyclist can go so slow it's almost like stopping. In other words, unless there is traffic, you don't have to completely stop and flat foot on a bike at every stop sign. You never blow through a stop sign. If you can approach a stop sign without seeing clearly the cross traffic, you do have to flat foot it. Otherwise, approach like you're stopping, but by the time you're almost stopped, you can usually clearly tell if you actually need to flat foot. if not, just keep cycling! Thats how I approach stop signs on a bicycle. It may be different on a scooter and definitely don't do that on a car

Lots of assumptions of what I would and wouldn't do as a novice on a scooter. That's not necessary.

[charlie55]

[teabow1]

Gotta pin the tail to the back-end. Not the torso. Try again ;--)

[TVB]

My only contention here is if a road allows a bicyclist to be on and allows other motorised vehicles to be on, why would it be dangerous for a 50cc to be on? It makes no sense. That's all.

A 50cc scooter cannot be ridden like a bicycle, on the shoulder. It must be ridden like a motor vehicle, in a traffic lane, and a motor vehicle traveling 15-20mph slower than the other vehicles is not safe.

[teabow1]

Ok!