(NBR) Annoyed by California Scooter Private Parties

Tenchi · Post by **Tenchi** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:09 am

If you are a Craigslist alumni, you have probably seen many postings for scooters (most of which are Chinese scooters, bought over the internet), that many advertise that no motorcycle license is required to ride. It is prevalent here in California. Except for mopeds, all motorized cycles require a Motorcycle license to ride. No pedals, and gasoline powered, it is a motorcycle/motor driven scooter per the DMV. I can guarantee that more than one time, someone is pulled over after purchasing said scooter and their response was that "I didn't know, officer, but that's what I was told..." And many of the scooters offered have no license plates on them. I think that should be the first hint....that CARB (California Air Resource Board) has deemed them unacceptable for registration here due to the fact they don't meet our "strict" air quality standards.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:15 am

I can see how people would fall for it. Just about everyone I work with asks about my scooters and are surprised to learn you need a MC licence. This, even after I tell them the Vespa goes 80+mph on the freeway...

Tenchi · Post by **Tenchi** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:46 am

Better hook up the afterburner if my Buddy is going to keep with you VESPA folks. I gotta admit, the Los Gatos Vespa Club did a great job with supporting the 2009 Amerivespa Rally. Met some fine folks there. And there wasn't a single riot or rave....no one is perfect.

Even met Eric C and Skootz...nicer people you couldn't imagine.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:03 pm

I see a lot of un-plated scooters on the road and some plated for off-road use only. Pretty sure the people who ride those aren't licensed either.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:51 pm

I've seen at least three scooters (1 Buddy, 2 Roketas) with the "1" on the 150 peeled off and either a 49cc placard or no plate here in MO.

I was literally driving past the parked Buddy Pamplona, saw the I-don't-need-a-plate placard, then clearly saw the 150 exhaust, and thought, hey, wait just a dog-gone minute!!

AlleyOops · Post by **AlleyOops** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:53 pm

Why do people do this... getting plates wasn't difficult or expensive?

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:05 pm

Can be expensive. Here in Missouri, for a titled/plated bike (>50cc) you have to pay your state & local sales tax plus the title application fee when you go to the Dept. of Revenue for plates. (as an aside, this is why Missouri OTD is not the same as, say, California OTD pricing

) A good rule of thumb is 10% of the purchase price by the time you're done.

Plates and safety inspection are reasonable in subsequent years, but that tax bite will encourage some folks to cheat.

hcstrider · Post by **hcstrider** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:57 pm

This problem is not unique to CA, I've encountered the same misinformation in MD. Over the years I've had a bunch of people ask me if I need a license to ride my scooter/moped and the answer is yes in MD you need a license even if the scooter's engine is less than 50 cc. For the less than 50 cc scooters, you don't need a class M motorcycle license but you do need a valid driver's license and this is not well known so a lot of people incorrectly assume that you can operate a less than 50 cc scooter even if you have had your driver's license revoked.

As for un-plated scooters, in D.C. I see a lot of greater than 50 cc scooters in which the owners have removed the plates and removed any indication that the scooter's displacement is greater than 50 cc. Yes, I have even seen de-badged Buddy 125/150 scooters with their license plates removed so the owners have greater freedom in where to park their scooter, i.e. you can lock a 50 cc scooter to a bicycle rack whereas Buddy 125/150 scooters must be parked in designated motorcycle parking spots which are frequently metered.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:09 pm

Have seen this before myself. Saw it for an MP3 once. Makes me think if people are simply desperate to sell or truly in the dark. Perhaps it's a mix of desperate sellers and those ignorant of the law, as well?

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:26 pm

hcstrider wrote:This problem is not unique to CA, I've encountered the same misinformation in MD. Over the years I've had a bunch of people ask me if I need a license to ride my scooter/moped and the answer is yes in MD you need a license even if the scooter's engine is less than 50 cc. For the less than 50 cc scooters, you don't need a class M motorcycle license but you do need a valid driver's license and this is not well known so a lot of people incorrectly assume that you can operate a less than 50 cc scooter even if you have had your driver's license revoked.

Yeah, last year I had a guy approach me in the parking lot of a party store to talk about my scooter, and he was sure that if he got one that was under 50cc (not 50cc exactly like mine said on it) he wouldn't need a license to ride it.

jijifer · Post by **jijifer** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:21 pm

MP3 doesn't require a MC license in California - I don't know if it has a loop hole that says it doesn't need to be plated. Having 3 wheels spares it having an MC license, though.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:31 pm

jijifer wrote:MP3 doesn't require a MC license in California - I don't know if it has a loop hole that says it doesn't need to be plated. Having 3 wheels spares it having an MC license, though.

That was the case in AZ too. Surprisingly, our Legislature discovered and closed that loophole.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:51 pm

Has this changed, then? An MP3 is not a trike, it's a "three wheeled motorcycle" or "motor driven cycle." It has no fixed axle. Perhaps the law is too vague for some? Two years ago I was told by two dealers it required an M1. But maybe not?

From a quick google search I can see it's been discussed ad infinitum. I now quote the "Petty Tyrant" being so at MV and leave at that, as his words are wise, indeed:

Wow, what an ugly thread.

So, regardless of what the California Vehicle Code may or may not say, and regardless of whether California may or may not someday close that loophole, and regardless of how you feel about the DMV, here's the bottom line:

1. The MP3 handles like a motorcycle. That's pretty clear.
2. The MP3 is officially classed as a motorcycle in California. That much is also crystal clear.

If you agree that 1 and 2 are both true, then quit crying and treat it like a damned motorcycle. I'm not interested in a bunch of whining about having to go to the DMV. If you can't be bothered to get your M1 endorsement, you shouldn't be riding. Period.

Every single person relying on a loophole in the law that allows them to operate a motorcycle without a motorcycle endorsement is doing themselves a disservice. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what the law says, it only matters that you're not qualified to be out there riding a freaking motorcycle!

I think legal or not any new unlicensed scooterist who comes across this thread should understand what an MP3 truly is and isn't. IMO if you live in Cali and want to ride one, be responsible and get some training AND a license. And maybe as a result, stay alive.

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:27 am

Syd wrote:
jijifer wrote:MP3 doesn't require a MC license in California - I don't know if it has a loop hole that says it doesn't need to be plated. Having 3 wheels spares it having an MC license, though.
That was the case in AZ too. Surprisingly, our Legislature discovered and closed that loophole.

I think the law in CA will be changing, too. The verbiage has something to do with axle width, yada yada.

2wheelNsanity · Post by **2wheelNsanity** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:33 am

In KS my scoot cost me $90.00 for the initial plates and now 5 months later I owe another $80.27 for 2012, plus $127/yr. for insurance. Not bad compared to a car, but still a chunk of money if your only employment is a part-time minimum wage ($7.25/hr.) job. So, I can see why people try get away with fudging on what their scooter really is, but it still isn't right.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:47 am

ericalm wrote:
Syd wrote:
jijifer wrote:MP3 doesn't require a MC license in California - I don't know if it has a loop hole that says it doesn't need to be plated. Having 3 wheels spares it having an MC license, though.
That was the case in AZ too. Surprisingly, our Legislature discovered and closed that loophole.
I think the law in CA will be changing, too. The verbiage has something to do with axle width, yada yada.

That is exactly what the salesperson(s) told me. They said the space between the two wheels, so to speak, was too narrow for the bike to be considered a trike. And it's not a reverse trike like the Can Am essentially is.

He gave me exact units of measurements, one of them did. Saying to the effect "it must be such and such in distance from one wheel to the other, and set up such and such a way. The MP3 does not meet the specification criteria and is considered a motorcycle." I just figured if it weren't true they would lose a sale so why work against themselves?

But maybe they simply want riders to be licensed to avoid any liability issues which may arise from all this confusion? I mean the answer has to be "No just hop on and ride this 500cc beast, Mrs Smith" or "Well, maybe it's legal? Check with the DMV, and maybe your insurer?" Or simply say "Yes, you need a MC license." Which would seem the easiest thing to do as most riders are licensed (I hope) and the dealer has no shortage of those riders to sell to.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:13 am

2wheelNsanity wrote:In KS my scoot cost me $90.00 for the initial plates and now 5 months later I owe another $80.27 for 2012, plus $127/yr. for insurance. Not bad compared to a car, but still a chunk of money if your only employment is a part-time minimum wage ($7.25/hr.) job. So, I can see why people try get away with fudging on what their scooter really is, but it still isn't right.

I'm sorry. I cannot accept this as some excuse. The insurance and plates for a scooter are FAR cheaper than a car. And, if that's too much, then you shouldn't be riding a motorbike. These are incurred costs of driving or riding, and part of the entire package of the motorbike. Just like a proper helmet, training, tools and the like, insurance and registration are one component to the total cost of ownership. No one gives slack to the rider who skips on safety gear because "it's too much", or on maintenance such as tires, oil changes or repair of consumable parts even when they aren't included on the initial purchase price.

To look for excuses and ways to get around required registration, licensing and insurance just shows one isn't ready to make a commitment like a motorbike. Especially when they are not hidden costs.

davidscooter · Post by **davidscooter** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:39 am

Even in California, you need an M2 license to ride a moped (this became law in 2006 or so). A person might as well get a full M1 license though, so that they can ride any 2 wheeler they want.

It you're going to buy a new scooter, it's so much easier if you buy from a dealer that will get the registration and license plate work done for you. I made the mistake of buying a scooter from a dealership that was hundreds of miles away, and I ultimately found it impossible to get it registered. I had to go the DMV and to the local CHP office. Even then, I wasn't able to get it registered because the Country of Origin information didn't match up. Later, when I bought my Buddy, I experienced near-euphoria because the dealer completely handled the registration/plate stuff for the Buddy, and I had my license plate within a week. No hassles.

AWinn6889 · Post by **AWinn6889** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:25 pm

In NY the Can Am falls under some weird category because it has a reverse gear. It's not considered a "trike" or a "reverse trike," I don't think they even have a special name for it yet... but the law is that if you take your road test on the Can Am, you get a limited motorcycle license, "LM." I don't know if the MP3 falls into the same category here or not, but I do know that the father of the d-bag that runs Vespa Schenectady was saying that you don't need an M license for it. I know that's not true for sure, you would at least need a LM to possibly be properly licensed for that bike.

I look at it as.. all the more reason to take a motorcycle-based MSF course. Even if you only have a scooter, or a Can Am or what-have-you, a full fledged motorcycle license is better to have here than a limited one. It's also better to have the training and knowledge required to operate a more complicated vehicle safely, and if you find that you don't like the motorcycle then you never have to ride one again. If you can't pass on a small motorcycle, then you probably shouldn't be riding anything with two wheels. (unless otherwise handicapped/not being able to use a the clutch and/or foot shifter)
Also, I know the cops around here, even the State Troopers, don't know anything about current traffic laws aside from the basics, let alone laws that apply specifically to motorcycles, scooters and things like the MP3 and the CanAm (except of course for the helmet law). So I doubt that they bother anyone on a CanAm or MP3 unless they are doing something stupid, or are otherwise breaking the law... making it more likely for riders of such vehicles to not bother with a M license.

I don't live in a location with lots of scooters... I have only ever seen two other Buddies locally, both of which are 150s, and neither of them have badges removed, or park where they aren't supposed to, from what I've seen of them anyway. When I see them they are always parked in regular spots, or the motorcycle parking at Ellis Hospital. I've seen a few larger Piaggios and Vespas around in the late summer, but I don't think they could get away with a fake 50cc class tag.

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:50 pm

JHScoot wrote:
ericalm wrote:
Syd wrote: That was the case in AZ too. Surprisingly, our Legislature discovered and closed that loophole.
I think the law in CA will be changing, too. The verbiage has something to do with axle width, yada yada.
That is exactly what the salesperson(s) told me. They said the space between the two wheels, so to speak, was too narrow for the bike to be considered a trike. And it's not a reverse trike like the Can Am essentially is.

He gave me exact units of measurements, one of them did. Saying to the effect "it must be such and such in distance from one wheel to the other, and set up such and such a way. The MP3 does not meet the specification criteria and is considered a motorcycle." I just figured if it weren't true they would lose a sale so why work against themselves?

But maybe they simply want riders to be licensed to avoid any liability issues which may arise from all this confusion? I mean the answer has to be "No just hop on and ride this 500cc beast, Mrs Smith" or "Well, maybe it's legal? Check with the DMV, and maybe your insurer?" Or simply say "Yes, you need a MC license." Which would seem the easiest thing to do as most riders are licensed (I hope) and the dealer has no shortage of those riders to sell to.

Sadly, many CA dealers originally used the lack of need for a license as a selling point for the MP3. As most owners will admit to, riding one requires the same knowledge and skills as riding a motorcycle/scooter.

Wheelz · Post by **Wheelz** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:20 pm

I might be wrong but I think I have seen a Spider commercial that states you don't need a Motorcycle license to drive one....

AWinn6889 · Post by **AWinn6889** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:29 pm

Wheelz wrote:I might be wrong but I think I have seen a Spider commercial that states you don't need a Motorcycle license to drive one....

In some states you still don't need one for the Can Am Spyder.
In NY the end of the commercial says "You can now take your limited motorcycle license road test on a Can Am Spyder!"
I have a friend in CT that has one that had to take his road test on a borrowed motorcycle in order to get a motorcycle license to ride the Can Am legally.
It varies pretty widely state by state as to what category the Can Am does and doesn't fit into. IMHO, either way it's not a car, you're exposed as if you would be on a motorcycle, it may not totally handle like a motorcycle but the same safety principles apply, so you should really have a motorcycle license to ride one.

velobuff · Post by **velobuff** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:23 am

The other problem with cheating and calling your 125, 150, 250 or whatever a 50cc (or putting a 70 cc kit in your 50cc) is:

1. If you're in an accident on your "50" cc and the other guy knows enough to accuse you of riding a 50+ cc without a motorcycle license you're probably in trouble with the law.

2. Lying to your insurance agent about your hopped up 50cc with a 70cc kit probably isn't the best thing to do because, again, if the other party involved in the accident is smart enough to call you on it, you're probably not insured like you thought you were. I'd think this is less of a problem with "natural" 125, 150, etc because they get the engine size off the VIN.

When I see CL posts saying "you don't need a DL" or "it's a 50 with a 70cc kit so you don't need a MC license" I reply to the poster and tell them they're giving misinformation and/or I'll put up a post on CL warning people that the seller is not informing people. Other people seem to be doing the same thing so it's kinda nice for those that have no clue.

Modern Buddy

(NBR) Annoyed by California Scooter Private Parties

(NBR) Annoyed by California Scooter Private Parties

Peabody, 80!!!