I got ripped off!

lovemysan · Post by **lovemysan** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:59 pm

10 days ago I was looking for a second scooter for some rides with my Dad on vacation. I found a 2002 bajaj legend on craigslist for $1000. Advertised with a new clutch and 2500 miles in good running condition. On the test ride it seemed to run fine with quiet motor. It shifted okay but 4th gear was very vague and seemed to slip once. I though(face palm) this was a cable adjustment issue. It certainly didn't have the power of a buddy but its heavier and bajaj, i.e. normal. I paid $875 for it, which was a fair price considering its a purple bajaj legend. On the ride home it seemed normal save clutch slip when mishandling 4th gear. The next morning leaving for coffee pulling out onto the street the clutch slipped in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. I gently returned home and pulled the service manual. Suggested remedies were oil level low, incorrect oil, clutch cable adjustment, and then some internal issues. First I called the PO and informed him the clutch was having issues to see about having the dealer clutch repair warrantied. He called and they said to bring it in. I didn't have access to a truck so I decided to check the clutch cable and change the oil. I drained the oil and cleaned the strainer which was full of chunks of aluminum and bits of gasket. Clutch cable was good with proper travel. I refilled with oil and rode around for 30 minutes. Clutch was still slipping and the engine started making a ticking clanging noise. I checked the valve lash, its good.

In the afternoon I decided to call the PO back and request my money back. When I spoke to him he said that I should take in for repair and see if it was a minor adjustment issue. I said I don't think it is. He said he'd already spent the money and to take it in and have checked. On Thursday , 72 hours after purchase, I took it in to scooterworld to get the low down. The mechanic checked the clutch and concurred\ something was amiss. He said the engine noise sounded like a bajaj. He also stated his boss had approved 1 hour of diagnosis and that the PO had requested the scooter repaired at the lowest possible cost. He also informed me that due to months of waiting on parts that the entire clutch assembly was free. He further stated the scooter was brought in because the engine was over revved and had broken the timing chain, valves, followers and multiple other parts. The PO elected to fore go a proper dis-assembly and inspection requesting that the broken parts be replaced and returned to running condition as cheaply as possible. At this point I want to sue the guy. My vacation starts the 29th and I'm supposed to be headed south scooters in tow. The scooter shop hasn't touched it yet. They had my buddy 50 for 4 weeks I ended up picking it and bringing it home still broken.

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:06 pm

dude that tottally sucks! Craigs list is full of scammers these days.

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:29 pm

That sucks.

In CO you have 72 hours to do anything, after that it's yours, especially for the 'as is' condition.

if this was a private seller, I'm not sure what recourse you'd have. you bought it in running condition, and then it died, even if it's a POS.

a dealer you'd have at least a little more leeway.

Good luck!

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:55 pm

skully93 wrote:In CO you have 72 hours to do anything, after that it's yours, especially for the 'as is' condition.

Even buying used? That's a good law

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:11 pm

ericalm wrote:
skully93 wrote:In CO you have 72 hours to do anything, after that it's yours, especially for the 'as is' condition.
Even buying used? That's a good law

it's tough to enforce used, but supposedly for 72 hours you can rip up anything you signed and get a 'do over'. after that it is your problem.

We also have a lemon law, but it never gets applied to private transactions.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:33 pm

This is why I never buy used or anything "open box." Without exception, I have been thoroughly hosed every time I did. I now ONLY buy new from reputable sellers. I've been doing that for 30 years without a problem. I avoid Craigs List like the plague. They should change their name to Crooks List.

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:39 pm

k1dude wrote:This is why I never buy used or anything "open box." Without exception, I have been thoroughly hosed every time I did. I now ONLY buy new from reputable sellers. I've been doing that for 30 years without a problem. I avoid Craigs List like the plague. They should change their name to Crooks List.

Your experience is vastly different from mine. I buy used and open box often. (Open box or refurbished, depending on seller, is often sold with a manufacturer's full warranty.) I buy a lot via eBay and some via Craigslist. I have never been hosed. A couple times I've bought vintage cameras via eBay that didn't work as advertised and I was refunded in each instance.

I'd buy a used scooter via Craigslist but would be very cautious about who I was buying from and the scooter's history. On an older scooter, I'd offer a deposit or $50 extra to let my mechanic look it over.

There are many honest, well-meaning people out there looking to unload their stuff and I think they outnumber the scammers and crooks. Still, it pays to be cautious and watch your ass.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:03 pm

Every time I've bought open box, one of the following happens:

1. There are missing parts. The box was likely opened by someone stealing the parts. When I try to return it to the store, they claim I stole the parts.

2. The item was broken. The previous owner that returned it likely broke it and then returned it saying it was in perfect condition. The store tries to blame me for breaking it.

3. The item was terribly used. The previous owner bought a new one and put their used one back in the box and returned it. The store tries to blame me for the tactic.

4. The store has an as-is no-return policy on open box items. The item is broken so I'm hosed.

5. The item has a huge scratch in it. The store tries to blame me for the scratch.

And that doesn't even include the time, hassle, and gas trying to take care of the problem.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:17 pm

Damn. That SUCKS! I've dealt with sketchy shops AND sketchy owners... and to kill a Bajaj takes effort.

As for buying open-box: If you know what you're getting into, it can be a way to save money. Then again, the only time I've been burned with online sales is from a "respected" Amazon dealer with a 97% rating. Bought two "DJ Grade" (read: Crap) 15" PA speakers with stands and cables for a stupid low price. Wasn't expecting JBL or QSC quality since it's just for roller-derby events and needed a few more cabs. The kicker was when they were shipped, they came in good condition, except for one *minor* flaw:

The speakers had NO SPEAKER MOUNTS IN THE CABINETS! And, the kicker was that the picture on the actual ad shows speakers ON STANDS! That and the stands looked used and beat to hell.

Called them up, complained, and before I could get confirmed that they would at least send proper parts, they pestered me 3 times on reversing my poor review. I hadn't even got a solution yet! They ended up sending me two extra speaker stands for free (still scratched up, but an extra $70 worth of stuff) and some external mounts... WITHOUT THE HARDWARE

Moral of the story: Sometimes something looks like a good price because there's a catch. A $1000 Bajaj would of caught my eye as well, but like my '80 P200e, I learned to ALWAYS be leery of what looks like the perfect deal.

lovemysan · Post by **lovemysan** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:40 pm

$1k for a purple bajaj legend is a FAIR price. I haven't got one single call on the add since i bought it(listed at $950). I think if I'm lucky I might get $600 in 3 months parting it out. Want to trade neotrotsky? Of course I'm not serious shipping this think would be expensive.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:45 pm

lovemysan wrote:$1k for a purple bajaj legend is a FAIR price. I haven't got one single call on the add since i bought it(listed at $950). I think if I'm lucky I might get $600 in 3 months parting it out. Want to trade neotrotsky? Of course I'm not serious shipping this think would be expensive.

Remember: Everything in Arizona seems to get an extra 25% added because of rampant fears of a new-liberal-communist-led-depression that is always *right* around the corner

$1000 for anything in Phoenix running is a deal. You think your Craigslist is bad, you should check out ours. If you see an ad coming from "Apache Junction" just run far, far away. A sale from that part of the valley will probably come with a dime-bag of meth as an added bonus

As for trading, I would of been interested but I already sold the dead Rattler to one of Phoenix's finest police officers who wanted a runabout project to compliment his R1. Really nice guy actually and knew exactly what he was getting into. Got some new speakers off of Amazon (read rant above) and my wife got a new tattoo out of the deal, so it's the best we could of gone for

smarkum · Post by **smarkum** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:40 pm

I wonder if you could get any written documentation from the dealer of the original work estimate or diagnosis paperwork that they gave to the PO to identify what repairs the bike needed. Then you could compare that to what they actually did to the bike. You'd have in writing that the PO mis-represented the bike and you could contact the Atty Generals Office in Kansas. If the PO made a documented choice to gloss over proper inspection and sold it under false pretenses, you might have a case. But, even if you don't have a case, you could type up a letter with documentation, and deliver it to the PO and strongly urge him to reconsider giving you the money back so you don't file the necessary paperwork, which will be in your hand, with the State Atty General for not abiding to the Unfair and Deceptive Acts and Practices Law. These laws can often be used even if the used vehicle is sold "as is," as long as the dealer is guilty of a verbal deception or a failure to disclose information about the vehicle. Now, I realize the PO was not a "dealer" , but the PO may not realize that there is a difference if it is a verbal communication. And, it still was a Deceptive sale and you will have proof of that. This guy has not avoided your calls, so you may be able to get him to listen to your argument and reconsider how much he wants to worry if that law applies to him or not. . . it might not be worth the $875 to him . . . and he might not be interested in defending himself in civil court . . .that will be costly too. I don't think you have anything to lose . . . maybe nothing to win, but certainly nothing more to lose.

And, I'm sorry this happened. That sucks.

you were just trying to hook you and your pops up for a fun vaca. . . I wonder if you could rent a scoot somewhere for a few little trips with Dad?

lovemysan · Post by **lovemysan** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:29 am

no go on renting. I had a friend with me to drive me out. The po never said as is. He said good working condition, more than once. I sent him a detailed email requesting my money back this morning. I haven't heard anything yet.

spr0k3t · Post by **spr0k3t** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:30 am

Dude, that sucks hard. I'm sorry to hear about the bad transaction. I'll say I've never had bad experience with ScooterWorld... they have always been behind every bit of work they do.

smarkum · Post by **smarkum** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:33 am

"good working condition" violates the Deceptive Acts and Practices Law. I'm just saying. . . Often if legal jargon is used and offical documents are presented, offenders look at things a bit differently.

So you've got some time . . . I wonder if you could hook up with either of the clubs in town . . . oh, maybe there are 3? I know the 2 stroke folks used to meet up often for wrenching sessions. . . just bring some beer and some laughter . . . maybe with some buddies, it could get to a working condition. . . those club guys and gals, know scooters inside and out. I would think you could find somone to help you out if you cannot get your funds back.
Good luck!

SYMbionic Duo · Post by **SYMbionic Duo** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:37 pm

Mike @ Scooter World treated me good, when my CityCom died over Memorial Day Weekend.

If you can't get your money back, at least SW knows a good bit of the bikes history. That might expedite repairs.

-duo

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:22 pm

k1dude wrote:Every time I've bought open box, one of the following happens: 1 - 5.

Frustrating, yes, but you're not describing "open box" - you're describing returned and sold in a resealed box. I have often purchased open box specials but only when I can examine the item before purchase and under circumstances where the manufacturers warranty applies. I have done fairly well that way. (used scooters are a whole different discussion, of course)

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:12 pm

Dooglas wrote:
k1dude wrote:Every time I've bought open box, one of the following happens: 1 - 5.
Frustrating, yes, but you're not describing "open box" - you're describing returned and sold in a resealed box. I have often purchased open box specials but only when I can examine the item before purchase and under circumstances where the manufacturers warranty applies. I have done fairly well that way. (used scooters are a whole different discussion, of course)

I guess everyone handles open-box differently. I think a lot of retailers fudge what they call open-box (none were supposedly returned - but obviously were). The experiences I related are all from major retailers - Best Buy, Circuit City (when they were around), Fry's, Sear's, and Comp USA (when they were around).

JettaKnight · Post by **JettaKnight** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:49 pm

lovemysan wrote:no go on renting. I had a friend with me to drive me out. The po never said as is. He said good working condition, more than once. I sent him a detailed email requesting my money back this morning. I haven't heard anything yet.

You won't hear anything. At this point he has the money and is walking away.

Having a lawyer draft up a letter on corporate letterhead (about a $100 service) would get his attention. And if you do have a state lemon law for used vehicles or plan to go to small claims court, you need to get a paper trail established right now listing your complaints and proof you have attempted to rectify the situation.

Otherwise, caveat emptor.

velobuff · Post by **velobuff** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:54 am

I am always leery of scooter ads saying that this or that was just replaced. Makes me think there are gremlins with the scoot and that the seller is fixing it up specifically to sell it.

I also get suspicious if the seller has to sell it today or offers to sell for less than kbb.

I guess the lesson learned is Caveat emptor. Too bad you didn't seem suspicious with the thought of a new clutch on a scoot with only 2500 miles & asked to speak with the scoot shop for the lowdown.

Some people are telling you to spend money on a lawyer & most lawyers won't waste their time with you. You're gonna have to show that you have a loss. At one point it might cost you more than you paid for it. On top of that, if you give up after realizing its costing too much, the seller might go after you for his costs. Been there done that.

I have a previous employer who owes me a few grand. I went to a lawyer & he laughed even though I'm legally owed the money & everything's documented & the state employment offices know about it. Nothing I can do without spending more money than I'm owed.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:03 am

velobuff wrote:I also get suspicious if the seller has to sell it today or offers to sell for less than kbb.

Over-eagerness to sell is suspicious, but willingness to sell for less than a book says it's worth... not really. Bluebook figures are always based on old (and limited) data, so they can't tell you what something will actually sell for this month in this town. And some people who are selling a vehicle just want to be rid of the thing, as long as they can get enough money for X out of it.

rsrider · Post by **rsrider** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:20 am

TVB wrote:
velobuff wrote:I also get suspicious if the seller has to sell it today or offers to sell for less than kbb.
Over-eagerness to sell is suspicious, but willingness to sell for less than a book says it's worth... not really. Bluebook figures are always based on old (and limited) data, so they can't tell you what something will actually sell for this month in this town. And some people who are selling a vehicle just want to be rid of the thing, as long as they can get enough money for X out of it.

I'm selling my zx-6r for around $1K less than they are going for, and around $500 less than KBB. so KBB is just a guesstimate. It's also priced at lowest retail on NADA, but it's an above average bike. I just want to get it out of the garage, because there is no room left and something has got to go.

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:59 am

velobuff wrote:Some people are telling you to spend money on a lawyer & most lawyers won't waste their time with you.

$875 is just not enough money to interest a lawyer. Don't waste your time on small claims court, either. Even if you win a judgement, you'll never collect a dime. My suggestion is to go over to the Retro Bajaj forum and sell your whole scooter or part it out in pieces. Sorry...

velobuff · Post by **velobuff** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:39 pm

Another angle on this would be this:

So the guy basically said "fix it for as cheap as possible." which the shop did.

Well it looks like the shop didn't do a good job, now did they?

The shop said that the original owner broke everything by "overrevving" the engine? Isn't there a rev limiter or something else that keeps one from "over revving" the engine and breaking everything?

I would ask the shop to take ownership of the problem and fix it right. I think legally, if you have a leg to stand on, this would be your best bet.

If I were you I'd ask the previous owner to do the right thing and press him and the shop to fix it right to make it roadworthy.

Also, there's nothing wrong with making the guys life miserable. Regardless of the laws, lawyers, etc, he did something unethical. What if you brought that scooter for your wife or daughter and god forbid something bad happened to them because of the previous owner or shop's cutting corners during the repair.