[NSR] Lance Armstrong

2wheelNsanity · Post by **2wheelNsanity** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:34 pm

This is a little off the normal subject for this forum, but I needed to vent.

Perhaps I am to forgiving or ignorant, which one I don't know, but why is our government spending millions of dollars to ruin one man? The past is the past, and with that said Mr. Armstrong passed every urine and blood test he ever took while competing, so why is our government convinced on the hear say of some disgruntled has-beens and the never-were. Mr. Armstrong’s body of work both on the road and in the realm of an activist against cancer is unparallel. Now I know those of you who think this guy is some super fan, but the truth is I rooted against him (my favorite rider at the time was Marco Pantani) but I can appreciate excellence and admire those who achieve it. The question really is, What is to be achieved in destroying a man who may have done what everyone else in his sport did? Next they will try to strip Arnold Schwarzenegger of his seven Mr. Olympia titles because he used steroids. This witch-hunting and waste of tax payer’s dollars has to end.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:14 am

I will not jump into this because it's going to get political and end up locked. But as for this line:

Next they will try to strip Arnold Schwarzenegger of his seven Mr. Olympia titles because he used steroids.

Steroids were expected and assumed (and possibly still are) so Arnold is safe, I'm sure.

charlie55 · Post by **charlie55** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:25 am

You're a politician/corporate executive/garden variety putz.

You have a choice between two activities:

- Taking the initiative, sticking your neck out and actually doing something useful/constructive/necessary.

- Joining a witch hunt, putting someone else's neck on the block, and bloviating until everyone goes into a coma.

That's OK. Take your time.

Wheelz · Post by **Wheelz** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:37 am

Syd it doesn't have to get political, if everybody sticks to the facts.
I don't believe the USADA is a government entity is it?
I think the government dropped the case.
So now the ADA has an ax to grind, and I'll bet dollars to donuts, they drag this out forever, only to not get the verdict they want.
Personally I think it has to do with Lance's strong comments against the ADA.
So it's personal to them, it doesn't matter how long ago it was.
I agree with you, they need to let it go, unfortunately they won't.

pdxrita · Post by **pdxrita** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:25 am

Yup. Not a government agency: http://www.usada.org/about

I agree, though. Unless they know a lot more than the general public knows (and maybe they do), this seems like a colossal waste of time and money. But it's donor money, not taxpayer money.

2wheelNsanity · Post by **2wheelNsanity** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:43 am

My bad on the government agency assumption, I should have checked it before I posted it

.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:48 am

Most of the funding for the USADA is by Federal Grant. It is in fact funded by taxpayers.

I'm TOTALLY against the use of drugs or any other artificial means to gain an advantage in sports. That being said, the USADA needs to BACK OFF!!!

Someone has a personal vendetta against Lance. Sure, he's known to be a complete tool, but so are most people at that level in sports or any other field.

His accomplishments speak volumes. He's a legend in the cycling community and he passed every test that was ever administered. Heck, they still have his samples and STILL can't find anything. Could he have been cheating? Perhaps. But there's no proof other than some has-beens that have been threatened within an inch of their lives to testify against him. If this was a court of law it would be thrown out as heresay since there's no evidence whatsoever. But since it isn't a court of law they decided to go after him to destroy his reputation and body of work.

Shame on the USADA for trying to tarnish the image and career of a great American athlete. Maybe it's someone in the triathlon community with pull in the USADA. They're trying to ban him from all athletic competition of any kind. And the word on the street is he's damn good at triathlons and is about to break through in that sport. So maybe the powers that be in that sport are threatened by his developing prowess.

Whatever the case may be, it needs to be dropped immediately. If they don't drop it, I hope it backfires in their faces big-time and somehow Lance comes out on top. Again.

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:29 am

k1dude wrote:Most of the funding for the USADA is by Federal Grant. It is in fact funded by taxpayers.

Lots of things are. But they're not a government agency, which sort of undermines the OP's characterization of a government witch hunt.

Any discussion of how people think the government should or should not spend its money is going to be political. "Sticking to the facts" means leaving out opinion, which just isn't going to happen here. Or anywhere.

If there's evidence to support the charges against Armstrong, why should be get a pass? Because he's done so many great things? Enforcing drug policy is part of the USADA's mission. Armstrong isn't the only person they've charged, just the best-known. But that's precisely why they shouldn't back down if the charges have merit.

The specific charges include blood transfusions and use of substances in ways that wouldn't be detected by standard testing. I'd be incensed if the organization didn't pursue charges simply because he's Lance Armstrong. If Armstrong's knowingly been complicit in violating drug policies, using banned substances and procedures, and covering it up, he should be subject to the same penalties any other athlete would be under the circumstances.

I'm not saying he's guilty. I've no idea. But most "witch hunts" have ulterior motives. Why would the USOC, USADA, government or anyone else go to great lengths to take down one of our most famous and beloved athletes? If it turns out Armstrong and the team are guilty, it's a huge embarrassment and loss.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:15 am

If they have gone through such great effort and have yet to find anything, perhaps it's a bit *too* hard to prove a case? Most athletes accused of drug use are pretty easy to nail down once you get past the reality-distortion field of their fame and get them into a lab. Armstrong has been in countless labs and they have yet to find anything concrete.

Then again, some people can't accept people who are that talented. The weaker or the less motivated will always try to bring someone else down to compensate for their shortcomings

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:02 pm

neotrotsky wrote:The weaker or the less motivated will always try to bring someone else down to compensate for their shortcomings

So the USADA's just insecure?

Wheelz · Post by **Wheelz** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:14 pm

3 count them 3 of Armstrong's former trainer/doctors just got life time bans, based on the evidence against Armstrong's former team/teams.
Honestly it doesn't look good for Lance.
His only chance is to get it thrown out, wich a Judge declared his first motion way too long. He shortened it, and said hows Saturday for a ruling. They decided, No Saturday is too soon we'll give it 25 more days

It's not over and it won't be for awhile.
If you don't want him to get punished, you have Roger Clemmons to hold as an example of huge evidence against not meaning a conviction.

david12df · Post by **david12df** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:56 pm

I being a taxpayer demand the truth.don't care if it takes another
10 years .If lance cheated ,shame on you if you did not I
Apologize..Marion Jones went on for years cheating those tests
finally got caught and confessed,cheaters always get
caught maybe not today maybe 10years after your dead and buried

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:47 pm

^^And I demand ice cream. That doesn't mean I'm going to get it.

cdwise · Post by **cdwise** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:02 pm

For the same reason as the Roger Clemens trials for "lying to congress" when he said he didn't take steroids. The only evidence was one "witness" with a former member of the baseball team's staff who was found by the trial court to be "not credible". No other witness or evidence was found in over 4.5 years of trying before trial. That trail cost the government estimated $2-3 million and who knows how much it cost Clemens.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:49 pm

cdwise wrote:For the same reason as the Roger Clemens trials for "lying to congress" when he said he didn't take steroids. The only evidence was one "witness" with a former member of the baseball team's staff who was found by the trial court to be "not credible". No other witness or evidence was found in over 4.5 years of trying before trial. That trail cost the government estimated $2-3 million and who knows how much it cost Clemens.

^This^

anthony · Post by **anthony** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:48 pm

I have a few friends who both work in the bike industry, and who're hardcore racers. They generally know everything there is to know about what's going on in the world of cycling. And while they admire Lance Armstrong, and don't even judge him that harshly, their verdict is that he's 100% guilty of doping, as are a HUGE number of other major figures in the cycling world. Now, I don't know where their information is coming from, but they seem pretty sure about it and, as I said, it's not because of some bias or animosity towards Lance; they like the guy.

Personally though, I agree. I've noticed that every time he's asked about this or this topic comes up, he always says the same thing, "I've never failed a single test." Why doesn't he ever just say "I've never used any performance-enhancing drugs."? I mean, that's what everyone really wants to know. But by saying the former, he's able to tell the truth, while the latter statement would have him lying. This is a long-standing strategy used by politicians.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:56 pm

It goes way further back. When asked if he doped, Eddie Merckx, a cycling god in the 60's and 70's, would only say he "did what he had to to win."

I will grant you that it is unlikely that the human body could perform the rigors found in the Tour without artificial help. It's unfortunate and needs to be cleaned up somehow.

But the witch hunt without evidence needs to stop. Come up with better testing methods instead of relying on questionable heresay from banned athletes.

GrittyTacoman · Post by **GrittyTacoman** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:10 pm

I liked and rooted for Lance. That said, I won't be shocked if it turns out he doped. But I'm wondering why the last 2 yr investigation by another entity was dropped without charges. Maybe they just wanted to pass the ball to the current group?

But I feel like this unending pursuit needs to end. Either they've got the evidence or they don't. Again, maybe he did, but if they can't prove it they should drop it eventually. Hopefully they have better proof than testimony from people who are rumored to have gotten deals to testify.

On a more positive note, sure enjoying Tour de France this year. Hoping Cadel can get more time out of Wiggens to make the battle even more interesting the next couple weeks.

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:22 pm

ericalm wrote:"Sticking to the facts" means leaving out opinion, which just isn't going to happen here. Or anywhere.

See? This isn't even a government issue anymore and yet people can't leave out their opinions of how government behaves and what it spends its money on.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:36 pm

I agree with SYD....I demand ice cream!!!

Wheelz · Post by **Wheelz** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:30 pm

GrittyTacoman wrote: On a more positive note, sure enjoying Tour de France this year. Hoping Cadel can get more time out of Wiggens to make the battle even more interesting the next couple weeks.

Evans tried hard today but lost huge time he's down 3 mins and something now.
The french riders are coming on this year, they are "just" winning stages, but it's a lot more than years passed.

MYSCTR · Post by **MYSCTR** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:00 pm

We are not into being a Brit - yet Wiggins is riding great and he is going to be fun to watch the next few weeks - and I really don't care if Evan's even gets to the podium. Nothing against him - being an ex-mtb'r and all, just good to see some really new faces and young talent - even a few French cyclists coming up.

Back to topic, Lance has a few very strong enemies, sad to say one who we really respected and got a terrible short end of the stick or the wrong end of a shotgun that ruined his career so we know there is jealousy and pure hatred being directed at Lance.

As far as his team, think logically for a moment and look at those who rode on the team under the Lance years at Le Tour who are still riding today and look at their efforts. Stop and consider if Lance is really all he is (was) it wasn’t a super-human team, it was just a (super-human) man who needed a team he could count on so when others have admitted they took something – maybe it was to keep up with the leader??

That said we all talk about doping and how wrong it is, yet did you ever consider what doping is? If you are a world class cyclist and drink TWO 8.4 oz Redbulls within a few hours before you race, you have doped and will fail the blood test, assuming you win and are tested. Anyone else can drink them all day long and life is good – just ask the next used car salesman you see looking for his next victim.

Oh - yes - this is just an opinion.

Ok, time to go watch Le Tour - and be happy 'cause I got to ride my scooter today!

GrittyTacoman · Post by **GrittyTacoman** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:02 pm

Wheelz wrote:
GrittyTacoman wrote: On a more positive note, sure enjoying Tour de France this year. Hoping Cadel can get more time out of Wiggens to make the battle even more interesting the next couple weeks.

Evans tried hard today but lost huge time he's down 3 mins and something now.
The french riders are coming on this year, they are "just" winning stages, but it's a lot more than years passed.

Ouch! Was hopeful for Cadel when he and TJ got in front of Wiggens yesterday but that sure didn't turn out well. Could see Cadel's chances fly away. Not that he would have done this, but in hindsight TJ should have just kept going-- at least he could have gotten a big gap.

Wiggens seems unstoppable! Will give Britain a nice boost leading into the Olympics.

Wiggins · Post by **Wiggins** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:07 pm

I think he doped, but I also think every other competitor in the upper levels of every sport is probably doping just to stay competitive.

I also think there is likely an axe to grind here. I have seen personal vendettas get dragged into investigations in city, county, state, and federal levels (and I have little experience with federal). I doubt this private organization charged with enforcing the rules is any more immune to this problem than the rest of the world. Just ask the basketball team that was accused of rape a few years ago.

If you can't make a clear case to a impartial third party like the millions of people who don't care about Lance Armstrong, then you have no case. Time to move on or wait for new information.

Kyle

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:53 pm

Wiggins wrote:I have seen personal vendettas get dragged into investigations in city, county, state, and federal levels (and I have little experience with federal).

I was going to say something about my adopted home state, but it's inherently political, so I'll just agree and say all the evidence you need can be found by reading the news about a state that borders southern California, and leave it that.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:00 am

i see it like this: if he doped, he doped. apparently many if not most in his sport dope. so all things being equal...

idk he is very high profile so he is an easy target. meh, to me he is just one guy in a big world who competes in a relatively small sport. doping or not its barely news imo

"hey guys some people cheat to win."

no kidding!

Howardr · Post by **Howardr** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:02 am

Personally, I don't see what the fuss is about, on a number of levels:
1.) It's just a sport, for crying out loud. It's not like a murder was committed.
2.) Shouldn't there be a statute of limitations on things like this, like there is on actualy crimes. I'm thinking, if you don't catch them within lets say 7 days after the end of the event, you stop looking.
3.) See #1
4.) On some level, don't we, as fans, demand that players of all sports "juice?" After all, we want to see lots of homeruns, faster and faster times, further distances, etc etc.
5.) See #1

Howard

Beamster · Post by **Beamster** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:13 am

Like politicians.
They like to point fingers but how many of them are innocent themselves?

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:24 am

In the end it's just one group of millionaires fighting over the other group of millionaires with whatever pawns are available, and everyone is more than eager to scramble over each to get a front seat view.

One group is jealous that he's making money for his group because he's not a lone party in this: His sponsors, business manager, agents, teammates, etc have a stake too.