The Oil Filter Thing

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:44 pm

I'm considering getting a PGO Metro 125--the Canadian version of the Buddy--this year. The Kymco S125 is only a hundred dollars more MSRP, but the Metro 125's dealer is a vintage Vespa and PGO scooter shop that is closer to where I live. Deciding which one to buy is a little up in the air.

One thing I pay attention to are problems that occur due to a scooter's design. I had a lemon of a Vino 125 that suffered from the dreaded "exhaust bolt crack/loss" because of that scoot's muffler bracket design. Two lost mufflers and a header pipe leak can really sap your formerly high opinion of a given model. I've noticed that the spin-on oil filter is an acknowledged weak point. Mostly due to inadequate filter tightening during oil changes. Still, it is a matter of concern.

Now, I suck as a shade-tree mechanic. One task I *do* know how to do is oil changes. I've never had a leak with drain plugs or bolts. I am rather anal about using the proper torque when doing this...even to bugging my dealers for the torque values from the shop manual. I also use a click-release torque wrench rather than by feel. Rather trust the wrench than my own limited experience with what "feels right".

So...assuming I use the proper tools--which include the aforesaid torque wrench and tool kit--and tighten the spin on filter to the value in the shop manual...how likely is the filter going to loosen between 5000km changings? Or should I check every week for filter fit? Or put blue loctite on it?

Or am I being insanely paranoid? Er, perhaps that's a rhetorical question...

Dibber · Post by **Dibber** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:34 am

I wouldn't use locktite on the oil filter. I just tighten it by hand and put my socket wrench to it and snug it up good. I do check it periodically as well as the oil level. Never needed to add any oil and don't expect to either, but it feels good to know that I have that precious black gold in there.

jetboy · Post by **jetboy** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:34 am

Sounds like you would take enough precations to be fine. I put a vertical line on my oil filter with nail polish (you could use a silver sharpie too) to facilitate a quick visual inspection.

Preemptive strike - The nail polish was my daughter's for you jokers out there.

-jetboy

gt1000 · Post by **gt1000** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:41 am

Someone please correct me if this is wrong, but I thought the filter problem was traced to using the filter with the slot on top, rather than the Piaggio filter with the bolt pattern on the top.

If you use the right filter and torque it up to spec, you should be fine. When this story first broke I habitually started checking my filter every couple of days. It never changed. Now I check it every time I check the oil, pretty much at every gas stop. Still hasn't changed.

Single cylinder bikes vibrate. Twins vibrate too. It's smart to test all fasteners on a regular basis. This is not a brand-specific recommendation.

sunshinen · Post by **sunshinen** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:52 am

I was one who had the filter come off. It was right after an oil change I did myself. It was the slot filter. I was a complete novice. I still use the slot filters. I now use a thick metal file to tighten it. I've never seen it budge between changes since. Honestly, I almost never check it between changes anymore. (I change the motor oil every 1000 miles.) Just make sure you get the filter on good and tight and you shouldn't have a problem.

Leeroy Jenkins · Post by **Leeroy Jenkins** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:51 am

no problems with loose filters, but I did break drain plug using spec tq values.

I use a bit of blue loctite on drain plug, and I am going to safety wire my next filter.

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:41 pm

Thanks for the reassurances. I'll also note the difference between filter types. I assume the PGO-standard filter is the "nut head" one, and the Piaggio equivalent is the slot head? Or vice versa?

As for vibrations...oh, lordy me, I know about dropped bolts. Must have been a hangover Monday for the guys in Taiwan who put together my old Vino 125. I swear it shed bolts like a cat molts fur in a Chicago summer. Oy. Aside from the muffler itself I lost the steering column VIN plate, muffler end cap, and a few other non-critical bits and bobs. I think my scooter thought it was Gretel!

echochamber · Post by **echochamber** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:10 am

Most oil filters need ~3-4 ft/lbs of torque to tighten. Buddy needs ~16 ft /lbs.

I have done (2) oil changes - the first came loose w/ normal tightening.

2nd filter went on tight and has stayed that way.

\e

JettaKnight · Post by **JettaKnight** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:00 pm

sunshinen wrote:I was one who had the filter come off. It was right after an oil change I did myself. It was the slot filter. I was a complete novice. I still use the slot filters. I now use a thick metal file to tighten it. I've never seen it budge between changes since. Honestly, I almost never check it between changes anymore. (I change the motor oil every 1000 miles.) Just make sure you get the filter on good and tight and you shouldn't have a problem.

I had my filter come off but now I use a metal bar if I have the slot type filters.

lou76 · Post by **lou76** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:22 am

sunshinen wrote:I was one who had the filter come off. It was right after an oil change I did myself. It was the slot filter.

i had the same thing happen with the hex-head... sparky (if that is indeed your REAL name...), i think that the oil filter "issue" is not something to worry about as long as the filter is tightened down pretty good.... i am coming up on change #18 or something, and only had this happen once... and it happened on like #13 or something... i always tighten it down good now, and have had no issues the last 5 changes...

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:46 pm

Not my real name, just a nickname given to me by a sometimes girlfriend that I though was suitably scooterish. Like I said, I was just checking out what the issues surrounding the spin-on filter were like. That it can be avoided by using proper torque values is enough to allay my reservations.

maryvu · Post by **maryvu** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:35 pm

Hey Sunshinen --

What happened when your filter came loose? Were you riding at the time? Did you note any leaking up to the oil loss?

Mine came loose a few hundred miles after a self-oil change. I was going 40mph, when there was sudden loss of oil/oil pressure. (there was no leak prior to the incident.) Anyway, hosed the engine. Fortunately, I was able to procure a salvaged Buddy with 500 miles on it for engine transplant. My gf and I are both experienced and have done oil changes before. a costly mistake, but i'm glad it turned out in the end...

danix · Post by **danix** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:34 am

I too lost my engine to the damn slotted filter. According to POC Phil, you have to "tighten the s*** out of it".