Commuting Help, Please

[San Francisco]

The problem I have with the scooter market is the 250cc range scoots are overpriced. For what you pay for a 250cc scoot you can buy a 250cc-650cc Japanese motorcycle.

That is true. In fact just today, after work, I was walking near the
Embarcadero Center. There was a Honda Helix parked on the curb.

I was looking at it and thought that it might as well have been a motorcycle.
Thing was huge. And it looked expensive.

But like I said, I dunno anything about those. Is a Honda Helix even considered a scooter?

[Keys]

The Helix is considered a scooter by our club based on the small diameter wheels and step-through design. Guess that's why they let my wife in...since that's what she rides. Also, both Motorcyclist and Scoot! Magazine list it as a scooter in their buyers guides. Yes it is huge...it's as long as the Kawasaki Drifter 1500 that a guy I work with rides. Weighs less, though... But my wife loves it.

--Keys

[sunshinen]

The OP is asking about what size scooter is best for his commute. I don't think stories about having balls helps much in that regard.

There is a big difference between saying "It takes skill and balls" and saying "if you don't, you have no balls." I took paige's point to be that it isn't easy or necessarily the wisest choice... but there are people who do do it and it helps if they can choose when they ride. (more on this in a minute)

And the OP is commuting in New Mexico, so perhaps a debate on the horrors of San Francisco traffic is not the most helpful either.

[sunshinen]

People's assumptions/limitations about what a scooter is/can do always surprise me. Why wouldn't it be a scooter just because it is a bigger scooter? Why should a Japanese motorcycle be worth more than a scooter? Clearly, we have a different value system.

(Pardon me, while I wax idealistic)
With motorcycles it seems everyone has this idea that you have to move up in size to really get what you want. I'm of the mindset where I want to move down. I want to use less metal, less gas. I want to pay for a smaller house and leave less waste for the next generation. People have made cross country trips on the Honda Metropolitan—I'm pretty sure the Buddy can do quite a lot that the "bigger is better" crowd don't want to believe it can.

I think those of us who have chosen to make the Buddy our primary form of transportation have developed a much bigger idea of just how much we CAN do on a scooter. It's kind of like learning that even though it wasn't a truck or an SUV, my little car is completely competent at taking me camping, carrying a couple mountain bikes, and navigating off road. When you love what you ride (or only have one form of transportation), you find out what it can really do simply by asking it to. Sometimes you may take that past the point of reason, or at least past where other reasonable people would, but sometimes, life simply must be lived past the point of reason.

[sunshinen]

The search, for now, is over, by the way. After a few more days of talking with people, checking out a couple a like-new used bikes, and actually getting to test ride both a Buddy and a People 150, my local dealer - Richard at Centaur Cycles and Scooters in Santa Fe - made me an offer on an 07 People (big wheels) that I decided was too good to pass up, so I bought it.
... Meantime, I'm waiting for the wind to die down so I can start riding.

Mean old wind die down! Congrats healingpath. I had a 50cc People for a short bit and it was a great ride even at 50cc. Ride safe.

[San Francisco]

The OP is asking about what size scooter is best for his commute. I don't think stories about having balls helps much in that regard.

There is a big difference between saying "It takes skill and balls" and saying "if you don't, you have no balls." I took paige's point to be that it isn't easy or necessarily the wisest choice... but there are people who do do it and it helps if they can choose when they ride. (more on this in a minute)

And the OP is commuting in New Mexico, so perhaps a debate on the horrors of San Francisco traffic is not the most helpful either.

Well, in reading the overall tone of the post, it was clear that the post was saying I had no balls.

And see my post. I discussed small scooters, small tires, highway
speeds, no power to get out of a tight spot, etc. These factors apply no
matter where one is riding a scooter.

And he did mention perhaps taking the interstate. Far as I know, any
interstate in the U. S. involves cars hauling ass, typically 15 to 20 miles
per hour in excess of the posted speed limit.

So my tips and opinions apply to any commute, any small scooter, on any
road in the U.S. I only cited the SF Bay Area as an example of personal
experience. If I did not cite examples, then I would have gotten the kind
of response I did, which was basically that I did not know what I was
talking about.

But hey whatever, the OP can glean what he wants from our opinions.

[healingpath]

(Pardon me, while I wax idealistic)
With motorcycles it seems everyone has this idea that you have to move up in size to really get what you want. I'm of the mindset where I want to move down. I want to use less metal, less gas. I want to pay for a smaller house and leave less waste for the next generation. People have made cross country trips on the Honda Metropolitan—I'm pretty sure the Buddy can do quite a lot that the "bigger is better" crowd don't want to believe it can.

Well, thanks again for your little bit different view of things. I tend to share some of these ideas, if you haven't already noticed. And thanks for the good wishes with my new 150, which I still haven't ridden due to bad weather. Maybe tomorrow. (!!!)

[healingpath]

[/quote]
But hey whatever, the OP can glean what he wants from our opinions.[/quote]

Thank you for your consideration of the dangers of interstate travel on a small scooter. You are not alone in your views, of course, and, there are clearly other views as well. I'd like to think that I'm not kidding myself, and that having made the choice to purchase and ride a smaller scooter will preclude certain travel options, like high speed freeways. For the most part, I have no problem with this reality. I admit though that there is also a part of me that MAY want to, at some future point, when I think I've honed my skills a bit, try out the (relatively) short stretch of interstate (5 miles +/-) that COULD be, but doesn't have to be, part of my commute. One reason for my curiosity is the fact that this stretch of highway- which is two lanes in either direction, separated by a very wide median of probably 100 feet - is almost always moving more slowly in the right lane, due to some slow moving vehicle or another, and I often/regularly find myself, in my car, and by choice, driving at a slower speed in this lane. By slower I mean anywhere from 50 to 65 mph, while the left lane might be moving at 75 or 80 or 85. I can't help but think about it, and at the same time, I believe I understand the potential for danger. And I won't/can't know how or if I'll approach this specific challenge at least until I have some considerable experience under my belt. I'm quite sure that I'm not thinking at all about regular long haul freeway travel on a 150cc bike.

Also, I'd like to offer my support for your offended balls. I truly appreciate your caution and good sense, and don't see any of it at all as a question of balls at all.

[polianarchy]

Also, I'd like to offer my support for your offended balls.

BEST!!! EVER!!!

/12-year-old maturity level

[paige]

Sunshinen, thank you for clarifying my point for me.

[San Francisco]

Also, I'd like to offer my support for your offended balls. I truly appreciate your caution and good sense,
and don't see any of it at all as a question of balls at all.
_______________________________

I can assure you mine were not offended.

And I agree safe riding is never a question of having balls. In fact, it's
when riders go on to these boards and start talking about "having balls" that the newbies get into trouble.

On some of the motorcyle boards I belong to we "cut the balls off," so to speak,
of members who talk about wheelies, chicken strips, how fast have you
gone on the freeway, how much can you lean into turns on mountain roads, and other nonsense.

The reason we cut those people off is because there are newbies who will
get caught up in the chat and stupidly think that they have to do such stunts
in order to be one of the guys or "to have balls."

Bonus comment: I regret to inform you that your new scooter cannot pull wheelies.

[vitaminC]

On some of the motorcyle boards I belong to we "cut the balls off," so to speak,
of members who talk about wheelies, chicken strips, how fast have you
gone on the freeway, how much can you lean into turns on mountain roads, and other nonsense.

I'm guessing you're not talking about BARF!

[San Francisco]

On some of the motorcyle boards I belong to we "cut the balls off," so to speak,
of members who talk about wheelies, chicken strips, how fast have you
gone on the freeway, how much can you lean into turns on mountain roads, and other nonsense.

I'm guessing you're not talking about BARF!

Although I am a member of BARF, I have not been on there for years, for
the reason you are implying.

[louie]

(Pardon me, while I wax idealistic)
With motorcycles it seems everyone has this idea that you have to move up in size to really get what you want. I'm of the mindset where I want to move down. I want to use less metal, less gas. I want to pay for a smaller house and leave less waste for the next generation. People have made cross country trips on the Honda Metropolitan—I'm pretty sure the Buddy can do quite a lot that the "bigger is better" crowd don't want to believe it can.

Well, thanks again for your little bit different view of things. I tend to share some of these ideas, if you haven't already noticed. And thanks for the good wishes with my new 150, which I still haven't ridden due to bad weather. Maybe tomorrow. (!!!)

Come on down, it's great, it's enough, it managable and i love it.

[dru_]

In an ideal world we could all afford to have two (or more!) scooters. One for the daily grind, and one for the fun runs.

For me, that would be a Red Buddy 125 for the daily grind, and an Aprilia Scarabeo 500 gt for the weekend runs into the mountains with my cruiser and sport tourer riding friends.

What you may notice is that, though I have ridden sport bikes and cruiser's, they don't hold the appeal of a twist-n-go, and that I don't need a liter bike that is an invitation for trouble. Yet I do enjoy a cruise with these friends, and I'm perfectly happy to use my massive amounts of storage on my scooter to haul lunch and drinks while some of them blast through the twisties at speeds I'm unwilling to run at on any machine.

It's a choice, and for me, it's not about cost, and I would say that for 90% of the two wheel purchasing public in the US, once you've made the choice to buy a bike, the decision over style comes before the decision over price. Yes, maxi-scooters are priced higher than the small displacement bikes.

However, the scale from the low end to the high end of the relative price spectrums is far greater. From ~$1700 for a 50cc to around $7500 for a loaded 600cc maxi, while the bike's start in the ~$2500 range for a 250, and range upwards of ~$20k for a decked out 1300cc cruiser. It's all about what you want.

I would say that most of the scooter owners on the various boards own them as transportation first, entertainment second. I would say that the reverse is true on the sportbike, and cruiser boards. The only other group of riders that I see as commuters are the small displacement cruisers (who tend to get chased out of the normal cruiser boards) and the sport tourers.

Because of that, stating what a scooter can't do in this venue is kinda like aggravating a snake an then putting your hand in front of it. It's going to get bitten.

I know that I personally get alot of comments about the 'toy' and 'getting a real bike' from riders outside the group that's run up into the twisties with me (on my People 250 which I chose as a compromise since I couldn't have two bikes). They love to tell me about what a scooter can't do. I just nod, and roll with it, after all, I only have to listen to them on warm sunny Saturdays and Sundays, because their bikes apparently can't be ridden in the cold, or in the rain, or to grocery for a $100 grocery trip, or to work.

In other words, to each their own.

[sunshinen]

Because of that, stating what a scooter can't do in this venue is kinda like aggravating a snake an then putting your hand in front of it. It's going to get bitten. ...

They love to tell me about what a scooter can't do. I just nod, and roll with it, after all, I only have to listen to them on warm sunny Saturdays and Sundays, because their bikes apparently can't be ridden in the cold, or in the rain, or to grocery for a $100 grocery trip, or to work.

In other words, to each their own.

Well put. Any time you state what can't be done or is never done, you're asking those with experience to the contrary to step forward and disagree.

I love how the bikers are suddenly noticing my helmet, and saying, "Ooh, still a bit chilly to be riding." When I've been riding all winter. I just smile and say, "Yep, at least it's a bit warmer than it was yesterday." And I mean that smile. I love being the only 2-wheeler in the parking lot. I love when the motorcycle parking is so full that I have to squeeze in behind a big cruiser. And I love that there are always a couple hard core cyclists with their bikes on the racks well before I roll in—rain, shine, or freezing temps. As you said, to each their own.

[jgalar]

My comment about motorcycles compared to scooters concerns the cost of manufacture to price.

It is far more expensive to manufacture a motorcycle than a scooter. Most of a scooter is either stamped out, injection molded, or pressed to form. There are more machined parts in a motorcycle's transmission than there is in an entire scooter. Plus a Japanese product is of better quality than either a Taiwan or Italian manufactured item.

So why are scooters so expensive!

[dru_]

My comment about motorcycles compared to scooters concerns the cost of manufacture to price.

It is far more expensive to manufacture a motorcycle than a scooter. Most of a scooter is either stamped out, injection molded, or pressed to form. There are more machined parts in a motorcycle's transmission than there is in an entire scooter. Plus a Japanese product is of better quality than either a Taiwan or Italian manufactured item.

So why are scooters so expensive!

Oh that's the easy one. Economy of Scale. The volume costs of producing a scooter are marginally lower (though, if you know enough about manufacturing and you've torn the covers off a modern scooter that isn't named 'Vespa', you'll know that a motorcycle and a modern scooter share more than you think). However, in terms of units produced, they are still outnumbered by motorcycles.

If you take the body work off a Buddy, you'll quickly note that it's a tubular frame just like 90% of the motorcycles on the road, and the plastic is the same injected plastic as a modern motorcycle fairing, though there is more of it than on most motorcycles, and that raises the cost.

Then there are the mechanicals. The cost to manufacture the odd transmission/swingarm/engine layout that is unique to the scooter is disproportionately high to the cost of the more traditional chain and belt drives found on most motorcycles, and when you add to that the relatively speaking, low volume, your prices go up.

To make matters worse, in the US, scooters are considered to be 'luxury' items, and as such they get a higher mark up. The Buddy, if you think about it is a good example.

* Low Volume Production (under 10k units per year is my guess)
* Imported to the US by a second company (figure +25% markup)
* Distributed to the US dealers (figure another +20% markup)
* Sold to the consumer (figure +10% markup)

Meanwhile, looking at Honda, you can take one %25 markup out of the equation, pad the consumer markup upwards by another 10% and still come in cheaper on higher volume bikes. We know for a fact that American Honda is the most profitable motorcycle vendor in the world per unit, which I think is *very* telling about what the real markups are in the US marketplace.

[gt1000]

Plus a Japanese product is of better quality than either a Taiwan or Italian manufactured item.

This was probably true a few years ago but the playing field is now evening out. As companies like Toyota and Honda get bigger and bigger, they're finding it harder to maintain quality standards. Want proof? Look at some of the recent recalls of these brands. One great example is the engine sludge issue in Toyota 4's and 3 liter V-6's. Germany too has always had a great reputation for quality but check recent customer satisfaction indexes for BMW, MB and VW and you'll find some shocking failures. And while Japanese motorcycles and scooters are probably somewhat more reliable than their Italian, Taiwanese, Chinese and Indian counterparts, they're just as expensive, if not more so, to fix. The German stuff is even worse.

It's funny. When I was growing up in the '60's, a sticker that said "Made in Japan" meant that it was crap. That changed very quickly to a badge of honor but, if they don't get their acts together quickly, the pendulum will swing back.

[Puddle Jumper]

[quote="JeremyZ"] in the dead of the Chicago winter. quote]
Slightly off theme here, but I too have been debating about the Buddy, but vs Vespa 150 vs Vespa ET4. Like the original post, I'm looking for great mileage and reliability. Now it sounds like I need to look at wheel size too....
Here's the deal, one of the potential riders (I know it won't be long before we get 2 if they are as fun as you all say!)... is 5'2 and 108lbs, and would have a commute of 20 miles one way of 30-55mph.
(Jeremy, or anyone else out there from the Chicago burbs... you would understand the commute... it's almost a straight shot on 176 from Wauconda to the Medical School on Green Bay Road... stop, stop and go,go, forested areas, slight hills, some truck/construction traffic, 2 high schools to pass, and train tracks to deal with)
What would you suggest? I really like the Vespa look of quality... (used would be the only option here)... but how do they compare to the Buddy? (4cy is nice.)
Thanks for any input out there!!

[jgalar]

The economy of scale goes to the manufacture of scooters. There are far more scooters sold world wide than motorcycles. There are probably more scooters purchased in Vietnam in a year than the total motorcycle/scooter sales in the US. In Asia the primary vehicle for business and personal use is the scooter.

[San Francisco]

in the dead of the Chicago winter. quote]
Slightly off theme here, but I too have been debating about the Buddy, but vs Vespa 150 vs Vespa ET4. Like the original post, I'm looking for great mileage and reliability. Now it sounds like I need to look at wheel size too....
Here's the deal, one of the potential riders (I know it won't be long before we get 2 if they are as fun as you all say!)... is 5'2 and 108lbs, and would have a commute of 20 miles one way of 30-55mph.
(Jeremy, or anyone else out there from the Chicago burbs... you would understand the commute... it's almost a straight shot on 176 from Wauconda to the Medical School on Green Bay Road... stop, stop and go,go, forested areas, slight hills, some truck/construction traffic, 2 high schools to pass, and train tracks to deal with)
What would you suggest? I really like the Vespa look of quality... (used would be the only option here)... but how do they compare to the Buddy? (4cy is nice.)
Thanks for any input out there!!

There's a few requirements your scooter is going to need. I'll post a video
review of the Buddy 125 in a separate thread, but keep in mind:

1. For the price of one Vespa you can get two Buddies. You will pay a lot
to simply say "It's a Vespa."

2. The Buddy has a lower seat height. My female friend who is
supposedly 5' 4" fits the Buddy OK, but her toes touch the ground.
Actually, almost half her foot touches the ground. That's pretty good.
Sidenote: I think she has been fibbing to me, she may be 5' 2"

3. She used to ride the manual shift Bajaj Chetak. She cannot rave
enough how easy it is to ride the Buddy. I think a lot of this has to do
with how well balanced and light the Buddy is compared to her old
scooter.

4. I was able to pop a brief wheelie on the Buddy yesterday. So I have
revised my opinion on power. Off the line, the Buddy has good take off.
And it gets up to 50 mph, indicated, quite quickly. At intersections when
the light turned green, I was able to leave traffic behind me, even the
cabs, who are always flooring it when the traffic lights say "bolt."

5. The Buddy is pretty light, so if there is lots of wind you have to keep
in mind that the Buddy can get blown around, especially at higher speeds.
When I was tooling at about 35 mph a blast of wind hit me sideways and
I actually was tilted to one side, just a few degrees, but nevertheless
it caused me to say "whoa."

6. San Francisco was declared as the city with the worst roads in the
U. S. The Buddy handled the ruts, pot holes and other junk quite well.
The suspension is damn nice. So you should be able to handle any
construction sites, etc., with ease.

So all in all I'd say the Buddy is a fine commuting machine as long as you
stay off the freeways or interstate [see my other posts].

Bonus Tip: I am now recommending that all Buddy owners get the Prima
pipe. Although it makes the Buddy sound cool, it emits a noise loud enough
that people in cars can hear you coming. I have watched people suddenly
look in my direction when they see me coming. That kind of alert is
priceless IMHO.

[sunshinen]

in the dead of the Chicago winter. quote]
Slightly off theme here, but I too have been debating about the Buddy, but vs Vespa 150 vs Vespa ET4. Like the original post, I'm looking for great mileage and reliability. Now it sounds like I need to look at wheel size too....
Here's the deal, one of the potential riders (I know it won't be long before we get 2 if they are as fun as you all say!)... is 5'2 and 108lbs, and would have a commute of 20 miles one way of 30-55mph.

... it's almost a straight shot on 176 from Wauconda to the Medical School on Green Bay Road... stop, stop and go,go, forested areas, slight hills, some truck/construction traffic, 2 high schools to pass, and train tracks to deal with)

I'm just an inch smaller than your potential rider. The Buddy was one of the few scooters with a seat height I felt comfy on. I still have to tip toe if I don't wear a boot with a heal or platform, but it has a nice low center of gravity that really helps with keeping it balanced.

I have a similar-sounding ride 1 to 2 times a week. Works great. Though, I'm not fond of the construction and I don't ride if there is a strong wind advisory.

To my understanding, the Buddy's gas mileage is a lot better than a Vespa's.

[healingpath]

Well, I have to say thank you again to everyone who was good enough to respond to my initial questions about commuting. I was given a lot to think about, good suggestions, valuable experience, some things I could relate with and some not. I've now had the chance to ride to and from town on three occassions, to experience first hand some of the issues I'll face commuting on a small bike, to run around in town on it, and in general to become a little more familiar with the whole scooter phenomenon. Here's what I've found out:

1) As I was told, the bike isn't appropriate for freeway/interstate use
2) I CAN commute 30 miles each way without any serious problems or even challenges, at least thus far
3) Riding a scooter requires a lot more muscle effort than I would have thought - hands, back, arms, neck, all subject to unimagined demands
4) An important consideration in choosing a scooter/bike, which no one mentioned, and which I did not think of either, is the bike's weight, and how much weight a person will be able to realistically handle at speed zero, or very low speed, such as rolling the bike, or even getting it up onto its center stand, and certainly in keeping it upright under conditions of compromised balance. I've already experienced a couple of situations where I think I would have dropped the bike if it had been a 250 weighing a hundred+ pounds more than my 150.
5) Finding that balance of capabilities (both the bike's and the rider's) and needs is a creative enterprise, with some formula components, and some very much more personal considerations. For example, I could say that now knowing the limitations of the 150, I might want a larger bike so as to be able to ride the freeway. However, I would also have to say that, factoring in all of the other "needs" that I have for a bike (ie., high fuel economy, manageable weight, the road-readiness of the bike for the actual roads that I HAVE to travel, speeds that I might feel comfortable traveling at, etc.), this 150 is entirely adequate for the job. What the future holds is anyone's guess
6) keeping track of all the new details of riding a 2 wheeler is another challenge I didn't think of. For you experienced riders, all of this is very old hat, but for a newbee, it's another one of the adjustments to be made: keeping track of keys and locks and chains and covers and helmets and jackets and other sundry cargo; to top-case or not to top-case, and then which one if yes; how about saddle bags; how much weight to realistically add to this little machine before really compromising its performance

There's probably more, but this is all I can think of right now. I'm enjoying the ride, I'm happy to say.

[louie]

healingpath, I'm also a newby. The first time i was on a bike was at the basic riding course in October 06. before taking the course I took a written test at DMV that got me my liscence to ride, but I didn't know how. In fact I wasn't sure if i would even want to ride. I did . I learned so much that weekend. The curriculum is well formulated and followed, the teachers were fantastic, and it has the best track record for successful students. My odds for safe riding sky rocketd. I understand time and experience makes a safe rider; but I don't have time to get around the learning curve and I can't bounce through the school of hard knocks so I took the course. I think i remember you writing that you were going to take it. Take the course and confidence in your knowledge will put a lot of things in place. I'd bet.

The center stand Steve my salesman taught me to
face the side of the scooter
one hand on hand grip and the other on the back rack.
right foot on the center stand
look about 10 yards behing the scooter
gently place both pegs on the ground
with lots of weight push the stand
reach the scooter toward where your lookin (behind the scooter about 10 yards)

At this point commuting 30 miles is more than I'd consider doing everyday. I'm pretty sure my body would rebel.

Welcome

[healingpath]

healingpath, Take the course and confidence in your knowledge will put a lot of things in place. I'd bet.

I'm scheduled to take it all next weekend. Looking forward to it, and I'm sure it will be informative and very helpful.

[louie]

[I'm scheduled to take it all next weekend. Looking forward to it, and I'm sure it will be informative and very helpful.

and fun don't forget about the fun