VooDoDoo

gearhead · Post by **gearhead** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:38 pm

the 125 head can be used with the 161 kit right?

djelliott · Post by **djelliott** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:42 pm

gearhead wrote:the 125 head can be used with the 161 kit right?

Yes. Just be sure you use the proper gasket. They're both labeled in the kit.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:57 pm

gearhead wrote:the 125 head can be used with the 161 kit right?

Yep, I've been running a mildly ported 125 head on my bike for quite a while now.

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:42 pm

djelliott wrote:
Kaos wrote:
djelliott wrote:Oh man, that's biblical! Make sure to do some good motor forensics. Don't want to repeat this mess. Based on the experiences of others (including myself) the the 161 kit and stock 150 head, head failure could be an option but a valve all of a sudden making proper nice nice with the piston seems a bit extreme without warning of such impending doom.
Yeah, thats the odd part. Other than needing very regular valve adjustments, this thing has been running AWESOME. The head made a TON of power and it was a blast to ride. Up till the end, when it was LITERALLY a blast to ride
OK, the oddly too regular valve adjustments should be a good clue. I'd look for cracks or damage to your rockers that could have been throwing the adjustment off that bad. Even tiny stress cracks could throw those out of tolerance.

That wouldn't cause the valve to fail though, or hit the piston for that matter. Worst it would have done is open late and close early = poor performance not bad enough timing

jijifer · Post by **jijifer** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:04 pm

gearhead wrote:the 125 head can be used with the 161 kit right?

totally. originally that was the plan but then Ryan at Scooterworks (or Genuine or both) thought to try putting the 150 head on and found it had more Torque and horsepower that way.... or so I was told by my friend at Scooterworks. So that's how I came to order the stock 150 head for mine before there was NCY option.

gearhead · Post by **gearhead** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:30 am

jijifer wrote:
gearhead wrote:the 125 head can be used with the 161 kit right?

totally. originally that was the plan but then Ryan at Scooterworks (or Genuine or both) thought to try putting the 150 head on and found it had more Torque and horsepower that way.... or so I was told by my friend at Scooterworks. So that's how I came to order the stock 150 head for mine before there was NCY option.

If the NCY 150 head is used, is there enough valve clearance that the piston and valve will not hit in the event that anything happens? also, do you guys prefer the NCY 150 big valve head or the stock 150 head?

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:41 am

gearhead wrote:
jijifer wrote:
gearhead wrote:the 125 head can be used with the 161 kit right?

totally. originally that was the plan but then Ryan at Scooterworks (or Genuine or both) thought to try putting the 150 head on and found it had more Torque and horsepower that way.... or so I was told by my friend at Scooterworks. So that's how I came to order the stock 150 head for mine before there was NCY option.
If the NCY 150 head is used, is there enough valve clearance that the piston and valve will not hit in the event that anything happens? also, do you guys prefer the NCY 150 big valve head or the stock 150 head?

I don't think they have been tested against each other. I'll let you know about clearance when mine gets here next week

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:49 am

ScooterTrash wrote:
gearhead wrote:
jijifer wrote:

totally. originally that was the plan but then Ryan at Scooterworks (or Genuine or both) thought to try putting the 150 head on and found it had more Torque and horsepower that way.... or so I was told by my friend at Scooterworks. So that's how I came to order the stock 150 head for mine before there was NCY option.
If the NCY 150 head is used, is there enough valve clearance that the piston and valve will not hit in the event that anything happens? also, do you guys prefer the NCY 150 big valve head or the stock 150 head?
I don't think they have been tested against each other. I'll let you know about clearance when mine gets here next week

The NCY head has been used before. I think DJElliot has one on his, Mr Miller has one on his 171 Blackjack if I remember right as well.

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:11 am

Kaos wrote:
ScooterTrash wrote:
gearhead wrote: If the NCY 150 head is used, is there enough valve clearance that the piston and valve will not hit in the event that anything happens? also, do you guys prefer the NCY 150 big valve head or the stock 150 head?
I don't think they have been tested against each other. I'll let you know about clearance when mine gets here next week
The NCY head has been used before. I think DJElliot has one on his, Mr Miller has one on his 171 Blackjack if I remember right as well.

I was just saying that I didn't think they had been compared on one scoot, not that it hadn't been used

djelliott · Post by **djelliott** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:58 pm

Kaos wrote:
ScooterTrash wrote:
gearhead wrote: If the NCY 150 head is used, is there enough valve clearance that the piston and valve will not hit in the event that anything happens? also, do you guys prefer the NCY 150 big valve head or the stock 150 head?
I don't think they have been tested against each other. I'll let you know about clearance when mine gets here next week
The NCY head has been used before. I think DJElliot has one on his, Mr Miller has one on his 171 Blackjack if I remember right as well.

Nope. I have the stock Buddy 150 head.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:24 pm

ScooterTrash wrote:
Kaos wrote:
ScooterTrash wrote: I don't think they have been tested against each other. I'll let you know about clearance when mine gets here next week
The NCY head has been used before. I think DJElliot has one on his, Mr Miller has one on his 171 Blackjack if I remember right as well.
I was just saying that I didn't think they had been compared on one scoot, not that it hadn't been used

Ahh, ok I get that

So I ordered an Akunar dome top high compression piston yesterday, so we'll see how this all comes out

<img src="http://www.akunar.com/images/PRO2/PISTONA.gif">

Now to talk the wife into letting me spend on an NCY head....

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:33 pm

Same diameter for the 161 cylinder?

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:37 pm

ScooterTrash wrote:Same diameter for the 161 cylinder?

Yep, 58.5mm just like the normal 161 piston. Though its actually just SLIGHTLY lower in the cylinder than the regular one will be. 12.5mm instead of the 13mm that the kit's piston is, which means I'm going to putty test it with the 150 gaskets and see if that makes up for the missing .5mm.
If not, with that 5.5mm dome top, it should still be higher compression than the flat top piston was.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:05 am

Kaos wrote:...I'm going to putty test it with the 150 gaskets and see if that makes up for the missing .5mm...

You could always just double up head gaskets with a little high temp RTV, couldn't you?

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:53 am

Syd wrote:
Kaos wrote:...I'm going to putty test it with the 150 gaskets and see if that makes up for the missing .5mm...
You could always just double up head gaskets with a little high temp RTV, couldn't you?

You are thinking backwards chief

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:41 pm

Ohh, look what I found on my doorstep when I got off work

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:24 am

Kaos wrote:Ohh, look what I found on my doorstep when I got off work

<img src="http://www.voodoo-buddy.com/new-piston.jpg" width=60%>

Man that looks sketchy

Break a valve? here's your solution. Taller piston!

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:30 am

A new piston and a paycheck. NICE!

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:47 am

ScooterTrash wrote:
Kaos wrote:Ohh, look what I found on my doorstep when I got off work

<img src="http://www.voodoo-buddy.com/new-piston.jpg" width=60%>
Man that looks sketchy Break a valve? here's your solution. Taller piston!

With deeper valve relief though.

its actually .5mm lower in the bore than the stock one too.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:56 am

Kaos wrote:Ohh, look what I found on my doorstep when I got off work

<img src="http://www.voodoo-buddy.com/new-piston.jpg" width=60%>

I was wondering what those two cutouts were, until I realized they will fill up nicely if the valve makes contact again.

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:49 pm

So, clay test, yeah?

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:51 pm

Lostmycage wrote:So, clay test, yeah?

Ohh yeah. I'm not going to take the chance that this piston is too tall. I also want to get the most compression I can outa it

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:09 pm

You're gonna need new (taller) gears soon and maybe a reinforced or stretched frame. If that thing works, you're going to be riding a unicycle most of the time.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:11 pm

Lostmycage wrote:You're gonna need new (taller) gears soon and maybe a reinforced or stretched frame. If that thing works, you're going to be riding a unicycle most of the time.

The only possible response?

xteraco · Post by **xteraco** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:49 pm

Will the dome top piston make less room for air and fuel in the combustion chamber. If so how will that effect performance?

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:56 pm

xteraco wrote:Will the dome top piston make less room for air and fuel in the combustion chamber. If so how will that effect performance?

Yes it will, and thats the idea. You pull the same amount of air into the motor but compress it more, higher compression == more power.
It also increases the chances of pre-detonation, commonly called "pinging"
so will either need enhanced cooling or higher octane gas to deal with this.

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:00 pm

Gearing change. That was something my mechanic mentioned when I was talking to him about tuning. Don't know if there's stuff available to change the gearing ratio on the Buddy, though.

Good luck on the clay test, Kaos! Fingers crossed for positive results for ya.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:05 pm

Cheshire wrote:Gearing change. That was something my mechanic mentioned when I was talking to him about tuning. Don't know if there's stuff available to change the gearing ratio on the Buddy, though.

Good luck on the clay test, Kaos! Fingers crossed for positive results for ya.

Yep, theres a LOT of options. I just have to figure out the cryptic codes the use for them. I'm used to ratios(3.55:1, 3.91:1) not 16*36, or 14*45....

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:12 pm

Kaos wrote:
Cheshire wrote:Gearing change. That was something my mechanic mentioned when I was talking to him about tuning. Don't know if there's stuff available to change the gearing ratio on the Buddy, though.

Good luck on the clay test, Kaos! Fingers crossed for positive results for ya.
Yep, theres a LOT of options. I just have to figure out the cryptic codes the use for them. I'm used to ratios(3.55:1, 3.91:1) not 16*36, or 14*45....

Wait a tick. Just did some digging after reading your post to confirm. Not 100% certain, but that looks like teeth count. If that's the case...
My calculations might be off because I'm using a script that's meant for bicycle gearing, but using what Scooterworks has to offer, here's what I got.

16*36 4.4:1
16*37 4.5:1
16*38 4.6:1

15*36 4.7:1
15*37 4.8:1
15*38 4.9:1
By all means, tell me if this sounds off.

Dammit...disregard those numbers. I just ran them with a different size tire to double check and it changed the numbers. I'm after a formula now instead of a programmed script.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:17 pm

Cheshire wrote:
Kaos wrote:
Cheshire wrote:Gearing change. That was something my mechanic mentioned when I was talking to him about tuning. Don't know if there's stuff available to change the gearing ratio on the Buddy, though.

Good luck on the clay test, Kaos! Fingers crossed for positive results for ya.
Yep, theres a LOT of options. I just have to figure out the cryptic codes the use for them. I'm used to ratios(3.55:1, 3.91:1) not 16*36, or 14*45....
Wait a tick. Just did some digging after reading your post to confirm. Not 100% certain, but that looks like teeth count. If that's the case...
My calculations might be off because I'm using a script that's meant for bicycle gearing, but using what Scooterworks has to offer, here's what I got.

16*36 4.4:1
16*37 4.5:1
16*38 4.6:1

15*36 4.7:1
15*37 4.8:1
15*38 4.9:1
By all means, tell me if this sounds off.

Dammit...disregard those numbers. I just ran them with a different size tire to double check and it changed the numbers. I'm after a formula now instead of a programmed script.

That never occurred to me. Thats probably exactly what they are, though tire size shouldn't have anything to do with the ratio of the gear. It would have something to do with the ratio to the ground though.

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:28 pm

Gearing ratio scripts for bicycles always confused me a little. I learned by using, but yeah. That looks an awful lot like how I'm used to seeing crankshaft/rear cassette teeth combinations written for bicycles, especially when I dabbled in single-speed and fixed-gear.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:14 am

well just clay tested it, and I've got 1.4mm clearance with the 150 gaskets. That should be enough.

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:26 am

Operation Unicycle is a go!

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:17 am

Kaos wrote:well just clay tested it, and I've got 1.4mm clearance with the 150 gaskets. That should be enough.

1.4mm? That's a little less than 1/16 inch, right? Wow. What's stock, do you know?

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:32 am

Syd wrote:
Kaos wrote:well just clay tested it, and I've got 1.4mm clearance with the 150 gaskets. That should be enough.
1.4mm? That's a little less than 1/16 inch, right? Wow. What's stock, do you know?

Actually, I don't. I'm trying to find out. I'd guarantee 1.4mm is less than stock, but it still leaves a fair bit of room for the valves to wander. Remember, the rocker clearance is only 0.17mm so if they move a bit you're only looking a fraction of a mm each way.

pdxrita · Post by **pdxrita** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:46 pm

Kaos wrote:Ohh, look what I found on my doorstep when I got off work

This explains the crappy weather we're having this week. Thanks a lot, Kaos!

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:25 pm

pdxrita wrote:
Kaos wrote:Ohh, look what I found on my doorstep when I got off work
This explains the crappy weather we're having this week. Thanks a lot, Kaos!

Hey, can't help it if I have a bad case of the need for speed

Its terminal.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Sat May 01, 2010 10:46 pm

Yay, we're back together and running again! I took it for a run, and it HAULS. I can't wait to get it broken in and really see what it'll do!

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Sun May 02, 2010 12:48 am

Kaos wrote:Yay, we're back together and running again! I took it for a run, and it HAULS. I can't wait to get it broken in and really see what it'll do!

Nice! just looked up that piston. Price has me interested

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Sun May 02, 2010 1:02 am

Kaos wrote:well just clay tested it, and I've got 1.4mm clearance with the 150 gaskets. That should be enough.

did some checking. Minimum clearance is .080mm on intake and .100mm on exhaust. Slightly more for aluminum rods so you should be good

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Sun May 02, 2010 1:25 am

ScooterTrash wrote:
Kaos wrote:well just clay tested it, and I've got 1.4mm clearance with the 150 gaskets. That should be enough.
did some checking. Minimum clearance is .080mm on intake and .100mm on exhaust. Slightly more for aluminum rods so you should be good

Nice! I took the chance and fired it today, runs fantastic. I pogo'd it in the parking lot just by blipping the throttle.

ScooterTrash wrote:Nice! just looked up that piston. Price has me interested

Yeah, the price is really good. Just be aware, shipping costs more than the piston does. It was about $65 shipped. Which is still pretty reasonable.

gearhead · Post by **gearhead** » Mon May 03, 2010 2:49 am

would it be more reliable to just use the 125 gasket?

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Mon May 03, 2010 2:54 am

gearhead wrote:would it be more reliable to just use the 125 gasket?

Not really, will have less power though

gearhead · Post by **gearhead** » Mon May 03, 2010 2:59 am

so even with the 150 gasket, can the piston and valve touch if using the 150 ncy head?

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Mon May 03, 2010 3:04 am

gearhead wrote:so even with the 150 gasket, can the piston and valve touch if using the 150 ncy head?

Not likely with the normal piston, that gasket was basically designed for the NCY head. Its really an NCY kit... The biggest issue I have is the dome-top piston.

gearhead · Post by **gearhead** » Mon May 03, 2010 3:09 am

thanks a lot. Good info and should be doing the 161 kit soon this month.

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Mon May 03, 2010 3:18 am

gearhead wrote:so even with the 150 gasket, can the piston and valve touch if using the 150 ncy head?

No, that's what it's designed for

also that's how mine is