Buddy 125 Died & Now Won't Start, No Spark

Throwback7R · Post by **Throwback7R** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:27 am

The only thing i could think of right now is it is off the EEC system

http://www.scooterloungeonline.com/buddy125eecsystem

That is on the right side of the scoot

DKAudio · Post by **DKAudio** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:36 am

That would be great, thank you! Just follow it from the 90 degree fitting in the top right of my picture down. Thanks

Hmm, I looked at the EEC system and the tubes look a little different, maybe though. If you could verify on your 125 I'd greatly appreciate it!

DKAudio · Post by **DKAudio** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:08 pm

You were right, it was the EEC system, it connected to the canister on the right side. Still wont start though. I also drained the bowl, left the screw open and cranked and gas started flowing again. Why won't this thing start???

MrChet · Post by **MrChet** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:04 pm

Valves adjusted to w/in spec?

DKAudio · Post by **DKAudio** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:00 pm

What valves? I was just riding one day and it died. I had no spark, that is fixed now, spark is great but it still won't start. It doesn't even sound like it is close to starting.

tortoise · Post by **tortoise** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:22 pm

DKAudio wrote:What valves?

Genuine 125 maintenance video.

DKAudio · Post by **DKAudio** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:42 pm

hmm, I don't have a valve tool like shown in the video. It doesn't really make sense that would be it either, it ran perfect before it just straight out died.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:43 pm

Hold up on the valve thing. That's not really likely to work one second and fail the next, and you could do more harm than good, perhaps inducing another problem if you don't get the adjustment just right.

OK. To run, you need air, fuel, and spark. You've confirmed spark. You've also got fuel reaching the bowl of the carb.

1) Let's do a quick exhaust check. Crank the starter and verify that air's puffing out the tailpipe. It's not 100% out of the question that some neighborhood yout stuffed a banana up your tailpipe. Don't fall for no banana in the tailpipe!

If the exhaust is blocked, it's not going to start.

2) Rereading the thread, I don't remember seeing if you cleaned your carb jets. This reeeeally sounded at first like a blocked jet - died while idling at a stoplight. if the idle jet is blocked, the bike probably won't start with the throttle closed, though it might if you crank the throttle - hard to say. It's worth pulling the carb, removing the bowl, and (gently) unscrewing the jets and cleaning them with a piece of thin wire and/or compressed air.

3) ONe other carb-related possibility is somehow the rubber membrane in the top section of the carb ruptured or shifted, but again, that usually doesn't happen by itself, it happens if you disassemble and reassemble the top end of the carb improperly.

Pull those jets and see.

DKAudio · Post by **DKAudio** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:59 pm

Thanks...

#1 yes, already checked that, good air chugs out of the exhaust while cranking.

#2 I will do that next.

#3 I check that yesterday, it appeared solid and moved fine.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:16 pm

Yeah, it's unlikely that a Beverly Hills Cop stuffed a banana in your tailpipe while you were idling, but it's not out of the question that an older, corroded muffler could have a piece of something break free and impede the flow.

Let us know how the jets look.

SonnyD · Post by **SonnyD** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:00 pm

Hmm, you have fuel to the float bowl.....is it getting to the spark plug? can you "flood" it..... crank it for a while and pull the plug and see if the plug electrode is wet.....That will bypass most of your Jet diagnosis.... if it's not wet, then you have your problem.... Now, I have never worked on one of these in my life, but I do know from experience with about every other motor on the planet of gasoline design.....If it's getting fuel, getting spark, at the correct time, and the intake and exhaust valves are in time...and it's not starting, about the only thing left is a Stuck ring, and low compression... I admittedly haven't read through all of this post...so you may have already checked the compression, sorry if you have and I missed it. These things are pretty simple in the scheme of things, nothing exotic about this more...INTAKE, COMPRESSION, SPARK, EXHAUST...if all of those are happening it will run...if all of these are good...including GAS...... and I second or third.....the no need to check the valve adjustment, very doubtful it's a valve adjustment problem...could have gotten a piece of carbon or something holding a valve open though....

SonnyD · Post by **SonnyD** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:04 pm

sorry for the double post....

DKAudio · Post by **DKAudio** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:43 pm

Cleaned the jets, main and idle and still the same thing. I wonder if something crucial is not hooked up or something. It doesn't even sound like it is close to starting or even firing. If I give it gas while cranking the pitch changes but it still doesn't sound like it is close to starting or firing.

DKAudio · Post by **DKAudio** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:49 pm

SonnyD wrote:Hmm, you have fuel to the float bowl.....is it getting to the spark plug? can you "flood" it..... crank it for a while and pull the plug and see if the plug electrode is wet.....That will bypass most of your Jet diagnosis.... if it's not wet, then you have your problem.... Now, I have never worked on one of these in my life, but I do know from experience with about every other motor on the planet of gasoline design.....If it's getting fuel, getting spark, at the correct time, and the intake and exhaust valves are in time...and it's not starting, about the only thing left is a Stuck ring, and low compression... I admittedly haven't read through all of this post...so you may have already checked the compression, sorry if you have and I missed it. These things are pretty simple in the scheme of things, nothing exotic about this more...INTAKE, COMPRESSION, SPARK, EXHAUST...if all of those are happening it will run...if all of these are good...including GAS......

I tried this and the plug didn't seem wet to me. I cranked for a good 10 seconds while giving it throttle.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:00 am

Rats. So often it's a gooped-up jet.

I don't know the top side of the carb very well, but man, it's starting to seem like the problem's up there.. I'm guessing there are some smart folks here, though, who know the carb better than I.. We're running out of places to look.

Hey, have you tried spraying some starting ether / carb cleaner into the manifold to see if it starts, albeit briefly? That'll at least tell you if you have proper compression and if the air pathway is good. It also might be worth looking at the air filter, too, maybe if it'll start without the filter? If that works, it's almost gotta be the carb.

SonnyD · Post by **SonnyD** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:38 am

I would think it would be fairly wet after 10 seconds, but it's a small motor. I'd really be leaning towards something in the carb....It could have sucked a piece of debris into a passageway, I never like to suggest this, just for safety and all, but if it was mine, what I would do is remove the air filter I see you have on there and spray a little carb cleaner directly into the carb. I wouldn't even use Ether, cause things can happen using it, that wouldn't happen using carb cleaner... It would work better if you had someone to push the starter button while you sprayed.... If it kicks over, it's in the carb... if not, you've only wasted a couple of bucks on a can of carb cleaner, and the carb will be a little cleaner.... Just a thought.....

SonnyD · Post by **SonnyD** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:41 am

dang it, double post again....

lovemysan · Post by **lovemysan** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:47 am

If I were you I would need to know, is it going to run? I'd try starter fluid. Or my go too trick: bag choke it. Warning to all: the following is a redneck method of choking a carbed engine, proceed with caution, Your engine could ingest plastic! Take the air filter out and cover the carb inlet with a bag, rag, or hand. I prefer bag for an air tight seal. Have a friend thumb the starter button. Remove the bag if the motor hits or coughs. If there is fuel in the bowl it'll suck it in. And don't let it get sucked in.

Throwback7R · Post by **Throwback7R** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:13 am

Check the compression please. at 6 k miles and if it was lean .. totally could be low/no compression. Autozone rents compression testers!

so easy and cheap to check, that is next step for me

Unless you want to sell it for cheap

pm me , I love broken stuff as you can tell .

DKAudio · Post by **DKAudio** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:36 pm

I'll try carb cleaner right in the air inlet next. I have a compression gauge but don't have an adapter small enough for the head threads. I did put my thumb over it and it felt strong, also has good air chugs out of the exhaust while cranking.

SonnyD · Post by **SonnyD** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:33 pm

I bet it fires with the carb cleaner!

DKAudio · Post by **DKAudio** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:08 pm

Sprayed carb cleaner in carb while cranking and not even close to starting. I then put my hand over the carb air intake and it sucked pretty hard while cranking, gas shot all over my hand but again not even close to starting. I just don't get it!

SonnyD · Post by **SonnyD** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:58 pm

Then there is definitely a serious problem....all I can say..... if it has good spark at the appropriate time, compression, intake, and exhaust, it will run....Spraying directly into the carb will bypass carb pretty much...so your missing something....Sounds like it needs to go to a mechanic...with testing equipment...

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:05 pm

Any chance you can unhook the vacuum hose from the manifold and spray it in there, bypassing the carb completely?

SonnyD · Post by **SonnyD** » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:37 am

Guess that's a shot...But wide open into the mouth of the carb, should go directly into the Intake bypassing the carb completely....Something is serious, if everything else is ok....maybe it broke the intake valve???

Throwback7R · Post by **Throwback7R** » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:36 am

Ok I am going to assume " I hate to do that" that you have compression..

Who did the stator install ? are you 100% sure you put the flywheel back on in the same place?

The timing of the spark is the only thing I can think of now..
Could check with a timing light as well.

DKAudio · Post by **DKAudio** » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:26 pm

Throwback7R wrote:Ok I am going to assume " I hate to do that" that you have compression..

Who did the stator install ? are you 100% sure you put the flywheel back on in the same place?

The timing of the spark is the only thing I can think of now..
Could check with a timing light as well.

You know what, I thought about that a little while ago. There is a groove in the shaft where the flywheel sets into right? Perhaps I was in too much of a rush and didn't line that up all the way. I will check that tonight, that's the only thing that makes sense! Thank you for bringing this up again.

DKAudio · Post by **DKAudio** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:50 am

Yes! Got it! The flywheel was off the groove. Thank you Throwback and everyone else who contributed to this roller coaster of a thread. Going to put the plastics back on and test drive her. With all new ignition parts by NCY I should be good for a long time.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:57 am

So as a post-mortem, a pickup coil failure probably caused it to stop running, and the flywheel magnet alignment post-reassembly dorked up the timing? Sounds like the good, strong spark was a little too early or late.

Amazing troubleshooting exercise, DK, sorry it took so long, and glad you're back on the road.

tortoise · Post by **tortoise** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:24 am

DKAudio wrote:The flywheel was off the groove.

Just curious . . unless the crankshaft woodruff key was sheared or missing, how could the flywheel be re-installed unless the groove was aligned over the key?

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:30 am

I've never had one in my hands, but perhaps the flywheel wasn't fully-engaged on the crankshaft?

(Edited from " it wasn't completely mounted all the way on the shaft" to avoid the double entendre thread.)

SonnyD · Post by **SonnyD** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:59 pm

yep...if the key isn't in there, the flywheel will turn again...which is probably what happened originally...they will tighten up with the nut, but without the key will turn again.....

DKAudio · Post by **DKAudio** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:49 pm

PeteH wrote:So as a post-mortem, a pickup coil failure probably caused it to stop running, and the flywheel magnet alignment post-reassembly dorked up the timing? Sounds like the good, strong spark was a little too early or late.

Amazing troubleshooting exercise, DK, sorry it took so long, and glad you're back on the road.

Not exactly, I first soldered in a new trigger coil which does not require removing the flywheel. I still had no spark after replacing the trigger coil so I think I did have a bad CDI. Unfortunately I tried replacing the stator prior to the CDI. Oh well, awesome spark now.

Anyways, here's something odd. If the scooter is running and I turn the key to the off position it remains running! I have to use the kill switch. Any ideas? I cannot crank while the key is in the off position though.

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:17 am

DKAudio wrote:Not exactly, I first soldered in a new trigger coil which does not require removing the flywheel. I still had no spark after replacing the trigger coil so I think I did have a bad CDI. Unfortunately I tried replacing the stator prior to the CDI. Oh well, awesome spark now.

Anyways, here's something odd. If the scooter is running and I turn the key to the off position it remains running! I have to use the kill switch. Any ideas? I cannot crank while the key is in the off position though.

I'm confused. So you did eventually replace the CDI, right? If so, did you replace it with a generic GY6 scooter CDI or one specifically for the Genuine Buddy?

Throwback7R · Post by **Throwback7R** » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:28 am

Check the wires on the back of the key switch for it staying on when you turn the key.. Could be the contact is sticking.. Or if your CDI is not factory .. could be that is not being switched correctly

DKAudio · Post by **DKAudio** » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:28 pm

Yes, I did replace the CDI too. I think that is what was actually bad because even after replacing the stator and trigger coil I still was not getting voltage to the ignition coil. I did not get a stock one, I got a performance one intended for a GY6. Is that really why it doesn't shut off when I turn the key to the off position? Funny, not a huge deal, I can just use the rocker switch to turn it off, and like I said, I cannot crank it when the key is in the off position.

I got the stage 1 kit from scrappydogscooters.com

Throwback7R · Post by **Throwback7R** » Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:19 pm

I had the Same CDI go bad on me 100 miles from home! Be careful;)

however it did last for some time " over 1000 miles.

DKAudio · Post by **DKAudio** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:04 pm

Uh oh, well hopefully mine will last longer that that. At least I know I have a good NCY stator in there. Scooterworks said it wouldn't fit but I got it and didn't have a single issue. So did your CDI cause the same issue with the off position of the key?