POLL: Regular or Premium?

[pocphil]

Culled from the inter-web, but i've printed my own version far too often:

Virtually nothing is gained by filling up with a premium or more expensive grade of fuel than the vehicle manufacturer has recommended, the experts say. And many of the same experts explain that drivers may not lose much performance from their cars by using a lower grade of fuel than recommended by the car manufacturer.

There is little difference in energy content of regular versus premium gasoline. They both contain about 111,400 British Thermal Units of energy per gallon.

The price difference, however, between the fuel grades is anywhere from 20 cents to 40 cents, depending on where you live in the United States. The experts' consensus goes against the long-held belief by thousand of drivers who fill up with premium only, or on every third or fourth trip to the pump. The idea is to fill up with premium every so often to clean out the engines or rev up the performance of older engines.

But according to the experts, this practice is like tossing quarters in a wishing well, since most engines are designed to operate on relatively low-octane regular unleaded gasoline.

Octane is defined as a fuel's resistance to knocking. There is no benefit if the octane is higher than what the engine needs. Engine knock occurs when fuel in a combustion chamber ignites before it should.

The American Petroleum Institute says if you find that your car runs fine on a lower grade, there is no sense switching to premium. The Institute recommends following manufacturer's recommendation, but even those manufacturers say that it is more of a suggestion than a command.

Now my own opinion. I am an expert. I've dyno tested many scooter engines on both 87, 92 and 100+ octane. The results vary based on the compression of the motor.

The results as they apply to scooters on this forum:

Neither the Buddy 125 nor the Buddy 50 REQUIRE anything higher than 87 octane.

Higher octanes do not run cleaner *the same detergency recipe is used in all of a manufacturers formulas*.

Higher octanes do not provide more power.

Higher octanes DO detonate later (which may screw up your timing).

Higher octanes DO cost a LOT more and their only benefit is how quickly they make big oil RICH.

When a independent test was done in 2005 over 50% of the gas stations selling "92 Octane" were actually pumping out fuel with an octane rating of 88.

[jmazza]

Hell yeah, I got POC Phil to post in one of MY threads!! I've arrived!!

[lobsterman]

OK, here's some fun numbers for those who say "it's only 20 cents more, I can afford it"

I fill up about once a week and usually get about a gallon.

Price difference between regular and premium = about 20 cents.

Over a year at that rate of consumption, that price difference for me comes to about $10 (.2 x 50 = 10) - note that I've removed two weeks for vacation or what have you and to keep the numbers nice and round.

Modern Buddy has 1606 registered users as of this writing.

If we all used one gallon per week for a year, the cost difference of regular versus premium looks something like this:

Users x (Premium-Regular) x Weeks Ridden/Year =

1606 x $0.20 x 50 = $16,060

Now I know you can do all kinds of mathematical gymnastics by playing with the variables. Let's be more scientific and use our polling data that says the 75% of us use regular and 25% use premium.

.25 x 1606 x .2 x 50 = $4,015

What could we (MB members) do with $4000 a year?

1) We could buy a Buddy every year and give it away.
2) We could donate it to an injured scooterist who needs the money.
3) We could buy a bunch of lottery tickets and argue about what to do if we won something.
4) We could support or help sponsor a scooter rally somewhere.

You get the idea. We (meaning me and the average American) waste an extraordinary amount of money every year. What could we do with it if we didn't urinate it away?

[SteMer]

Has anyone tried converting to diesel?

[Sunil]

but my scooters my baby.

Which is why these threads get so animated.

I can afford the extra 20 cents a week so its not a big deal.

For many of us, the decision to use regular is not about cost, but what our understanding of octane and what we think is best for our scooters. http://theserviceadvisor.com/octane.htm

I didnt mean to sound casual about throwing money away. Of course there are many ways we can reduce waste and become more socially responsible. That is part of the reason I got rid of my car and bought a scooter. It seems that there is a lot of debate over the octane issue. My understanding was that it probably wouldnt be harmful to run 87, but it definatly wouldnt hurt to run 91. I figured might as well get the "good" stuff to be safe. I want by buddy to be as trouble free as possible and spending about 10 dollars a year extra on it didnt bother me. All the interesting points raised here have me reconsidering it though. I didnt know so many people use regular gas. My dealer reccomended the higher octane gas when I bought the scooter so I figured that was standard for this type of engine. Ill definatly try using 87 for a while and see if there is any noticable difference. Good discussion.

[polianarchy]

I fuel my scooter with coffee! VROOM VROOM!!!

[ysofisonly50?]

I use regular.
No ping (detonation) = it's the right choice.
Nowadays, even compression ratio does not determine octane requirement anymore.
The combustion chamber shape in modern engine design plays a good part in what octane number is needed for good running.
Example - the BMW F650 uses regular gas even if it's compression ratio is a very high 11.5:1

sorry for the technospeak but it couldn't be avoided in this thread.

[BoneGirl]

I have used Premium for the last 17,000 miles in my Buddy because the dealer recommended I do that. I average 100+ miles/gallon and beat the heck out of her Royal Pinkness with no problems. I always like POCPhil's explanations, though, and may look into this much further. I don't regret the extra money I've spent on gas but if the facts are as Phil stated, I won't have any trouble switching to Regular.

[illnoise]

I average 100+ miles/gallon.

Not to start another war, but really? Really?

I know they get great mileage, but I refuse to believe they can actually maintain 100mpg under normal driving conditions. If you're travelling long distances at medium revs without stopping and starting, then yeah, but most people ride full revs-stop-full revs-stop and that's not going to give you the best mileage.

If that's your real MPG with a GPS and careful recordkeeping, then that's awesome, spread the word! But don't just assume you're getting the MPG it says on the sticker. Like I said, they're really great, I can see 80 or more, but I just find it really hard to believe anyone's getting 100mpg in the real world. You might be getting 100 speedo units per tank, or even 100 speedo units per gallon, but if the Buddy speedo is half as wrong as the Blur speedo, those aren't miles. : )

Bb.

[monza]

Buddy 125cc = Regular.
Vespa GT200 = Premium.

Why?

because the GT runs higher compression and needs the higher octane.

What it comes down to is the fact that you dont need any higher octane than required by the owners manual. Using higher will only cost you more money, and in some cases can cause lower performance. Why? because basically high test gas burns slower than low test. This is required in high compression engines where you need the stability of the slower burning fuel.

Also, there is a myth that Premium is of a higher quality. At some gas stations this may not be true as the premium doesnt sell as well and may have been sitting in the tank much longer than the low octane. Ultimately, the gas we get in the US is very high quality whether it is the low or high octane. The scooters we typically buy (like a Buddy, Chetak, etc...)were designed to operate in countries where the gas quality is much lower, so for the most part no matter what you buy it is far better than the engine was designed to operate with.

[Dibber]

I have used both and have had no noticable difference in performance, mpg's, or engine noise. So I run Regualar all the time now.

[poop colored buddy]

Hey man I wasn't trying to throw some low blow jab to you. I was just elaborating on my previous statement because of yours. It wasn't meant as a come back.

NP pooper! You might want to try different brands of regular. If you do let us know how it works!

I just put in a tank of 87 about 10 minutes ago! I am testing it again. I will post results. So far there's no difference that I can tell.

[EP_scoot]

Polianarchy wrote

I fuel my scooter with coffee! VROOM VROOM!!!

Ha, but is it, plain black, simple capuccino, or a loaded 2% latte with a shot of vanilla, whipped cream and a chocolate bean on top?

[BoneGirl]

I average 100+ miles/gallon.

Not to start another war, but really? Really?

I know they get great mileage, but I refuse to believe they can actually maintain 100mpg under normal driving conditions. If you're traveling long distances at medium revs without stopping and starting, then yeah, but most people ride full revs-stop-full revs-stop and that's not going to give you the best mileage.

If that's your real MPG with a GPS and careful recordkeeping, then that's awesome, spread the word! But don't just assume you're getting the MPG it says on the sticker. Like I said, they're really great, I can see 80 or more, but I just find it really hard to believe anyone's getting 100mpg in the real world. You might be getting 100 speedo units per tank, or even 100 speedo units per gallon, but if the Buddy speedo is half as wrong as the Blur speedo, those aren't miles. : )

Bb.

Right after my first change of belt and rollers I actually got 109 mpg! I calculate it like I do my car so I didn't know there was such a thing as speedo units. I am certainly willing to try it with a GPS. I have also hit a top speed of 72mph as recorded by my GPS during a Benefit ride we did with a motorcycle group last summer; and no, it wasn't on a giant downhill. Right now my average mpg is down considerably due to the tall windshield and winter winds. But I don't know how anyone will know what kind of mileage they are getting if none of the odometer readings are ever accurate. A group of several makes and model scooters rode a couple weeks ago and we all agreed we did almost 130 miles. I still had gas to go when it was all said and done and was averaging closer to 100 than 80mpg just based on the amount of miles I rode and how much gas I had left in the tank.

[pocphil]

My absolute best tank of gas EVER was in my Stella after installing the Sito + and porting the motor. I got a GPS verified 95 mpg. I weigh over 200 lbs. and tend to drive aggressively. I admit I was taking it easy on that tank for mileage sake.

On the Lake Erie Loop (correcting for speedo error) my best Buddy 125 tank of gas was 80 mpg. Which was pretty impressive considering it was all done at full-throttle on the interstate.

We have a slew of customers who keep excellent records most report over 90 mpg from their Buddy 125's and Stellas.

I guess it's not out of the question for a non-aggressive, lightweight rider in a temperate climate to break the 100 MPG barrier on a Buddy 125.

[MikieTaps]

*Bump

[jmazza]

*Bump

HAHAHAHAHAH!!!! I'll get you for this, MikieTaps!!!!

See, I started one once. Once. I did get POC Phil to post, which is pretty great.

High Five!!

[madtolive]

i feed ines mid-grade, and valero gas is her favorite. but she'd much prefer brains.

[n00b4life]

I can only speak from the point of view from a 50cc 2 stroke. There is NO placebo effect, premium runs better. About 5 mph more with better gas, and faster response with the throttle. I have run both, and cheaper gas with lower octane runs worse. It just does. Also, as mentioned above, some gas stations have better stuff. Like I said, in my 150 I can't tell ANY difference at all, but in the 50cc, there is a noticable change in the way the scoots runs. If it were a placebo effect I would be preaching that it effects all scooters, I can tell you that when I look at my speedo, and I am going 5 mph slower on the same road as yesterday with no wind, and the only variable is the gas; and then you notice this to be true on more than one occasion, it leads me to believe that there is a difference.

Since this got bumped, I'll comment. Who knows, with all the gas threads, whether this will ever get read?

I can say from experience that premium makes a HUGE difference in 2-stroke equipment like blowers, edgers and trimmers. In a past life, I ran commercial 2-stroke lawn equipment all day long and read on a forum similar to this, that if I used regular, I could expect my equipment to have problems lasting all day. And I did.

As I got closer to the end of the day, the equipment would get really fussy and just wouldn't run for very long.

I switched to premium and never had another problem.

So, +1 to the 2-stroke improvement.

As for 4-stroke, I don't know. I run regular in mine and have no problem. Of course, I am not running it at WOT all day like the lawn equipment.

Oh yeah, the lawn equipment would get really cranky if it wasn't run at WOT, too. Not sure if that was an attribute of 2-stroke engines, or just the way that kind of equipment is tuned. Again, it had to be in use all day for the issues to really become apparent.

[DennisD]

I don't care. I intend to use only the finest cheap crap 87 octane I can find. Even if my mileage drops below 118mpg.

[MikieTaps]

*Bump

HAHAHAHAHAH!!!! I'll get you for this, MikieTaps!!!!

See, I started one once. Once. I did get POC Phil to post, which is pretty great.

High Five!!

did you just high five yourself? That is my thing! you thing stealer!

[ericalm]

*Bump

Muckraker! Raker of muck!

87 or Nothin'! Low Octane Überalles!

(Oh, I don't really care what people use.)

[jmazza]

*Bump

HAHAHAHAHAH!!!! I'll get you for this, MikieTaps!!!!

See, I started one once. Once. I did get POC Phil to post, which is pretty great.

High Five!!

did you just high five yourself? That is my thing! you thing stealer!

You bump my thread, I steal your thing.

That sounds so wrong.

[bunny]

You bump my thread, I steal your thing.

That sounds so wrong.

Oh my helllllll! I am crying laughing over here...