Modern Buddy

OK, so I thought I could change my own oil. It seems easy enough, and it was... up until I put on the new oil filter. Before trying this, I read up on the amount of torque I needed to use putting on the new filter. I didn't want it to spin off, so following suggestions here viewtopic.php?t=9256&highlight=oil+change+torque I tried to torque it on with 14 - 16 ft. /lbs. of pressure. I don't think I put that much pressure on it, but after a few cranks with the torque wrench (and no where near the torque I thought it needed, it was still spinning easily) the post where you screw on the oil filter snapped in half.

It's going to be two days before I can call the dealer to ask about this. How much trouble am I in? Is this going to be a costly repair? Urgh .

The post you screw the filter onto cracked in half? How much torque did you put on? It's said 15-16 foot pounds is enough, and slightly more if it is still lose.

I found using a torque wrench is pretty useless, just a socket wrench or closed end hand wrench is the best you can do, turn it to hand tight, and 3/4 another turn.

I've never heard of anyone having this issue online. Was it cracked when you took the old filter off? Or cracked because of your actions? I'm a bit confused because you said you put it on 14-16 foot pounds and it was still lose. How exactly did you put this on also? By hand? By Impact wrench?

Yes, it cracked in half (a good portion of the post broke off inside the oil filter). I just used a normal hand held socket wrench (that had torque readings on the side of it). The funny thing was, there wasn't wasn't much, if any, resistance at the point it broke so I'm not sure how much torque I was putting on it. I kind of remember the wrench indicated I was somewhere between 0 - 10 ft./lbs. when it snapped.

The post wasn't cracked when I took off the old filter. At least I don't think it was. I didn't notice anything, but I wasn't looking for it either. The old filter came off easily, I didn't have to crank on it or anything.

As far as I know, the post cracked because I was twisting on the new oil filter. From now on I won't use the torque wrench, but I've got to figure out how to get this fixed now.

Has anyone else changed your oil before? No would way 10 foot pounds crack the mount off unless you were somehow leaning onto it, even then, it's pretty sturdy and wouldnt just crack off.

I've read a few stories where the mechanic who did last services did something wrong, and the next time it was done right, everything went wrong, but I've never heard of the oil filter mount snapping off.

Can you post a pic of the snapped post?

I've never heard of this happening before. Usually, the filter will break before anything else does.

Sounds like you'll have to call your dealer or roadside assistance and get your scoot hauled in.

This may take a while to order since it's never really happened before. Genuine stocks up on most common parts that people order, but a oil filter mount is unheard of, they'd probably have to order from PGO in taiwan and ship it to your dealer.

This is the second time the oil has been changed. The dealer did it the first time.

I surely wasn't leaning on it. It didn't even snap or pop off with a "ping!" or anything. It just kind of fell off really. The threads aren't even stripped if that helps you visualize any. I showed it to a mechanic friend and he said the threads are made of aluminum. I would have thought they would strip before the post broke, but the threads are intact as far as I can tell (I'm not that mechanically inclined obviously).

Anyway, I really appreciate your replies. Not what I wanted to hear of course (a fix that may take some time and money), but thanks for at least thinking about it. I searched here and Google and didn't find a single instance of this happening to anyone else.

If I can dig out the camera, I'll post some pictures later today.

WOW , I tighten mine way more than 16lbs and have never had a problem. Sounds like you may have had a defective oil filter housing.

Either a defective oil filter housing, or a mechanic who did it wrong the previous oil change.

I really doubt someone did mess with it, but it's possible, lots of people have applied mechanics from cars and other bikes to the buddy, and they found out that that doesnt work too well....

If I was in your shoes, I'd make sure your Genuine dealer puts in a warranty request for the replacement parts. As Eric mentioned, it is virtually inconceivable that too much torque on the filter or even lateral force on the filter would break anything but the filter. That post seems much sturdier than the filter. I can't imagine how this could be your fault...

That is so strange I mean it's like saying:

1.I tore my tire in half when cleaning it

2.I twisted my throttle and my front end fell off

3.I was waxing my scooter and the paint fell off

4.I sat on my scooter and my seat broke in half

5.I was pushing my scooter into the garage and the whole scooter crumbled into a pile of parts

6.I sat my helmet on my rear rack and my rear rack cracked in two

This occurance/thread may make history!

BuddyLicious wrote:That is so strange I mean it's like saying:

1.I tore my tire in half when cleaning it

2.I twisted my throttle and my front end fell off

3.I was waxing my scooter and the paint fell off

4.I sat on my scooter and my seat broke in half

5.I was pushing my scooter into the garage and the whole scooter crumbled into a pile of parts

6.I sat my helmet on my rear rack and my rear rack cracked in two

This occurance/thread may make history!

This is a very good idea, it's not possible to break it off, it just isnt unless you are trying. I'd file this as a warranty claim because no way would the piece break off with such little force.

Take a look at this thread. Kurt (a dealer) says 12-15 ft/lbs dry.
topic10293.html

I'm with jfrost on this one,do file a claim.It will be interesting though to hear what Genuine says about this claim.Is this even possible to fix at the source? If not cross your fingers Genuine has an engine on the shelf that they are willing to use parts off of.If not scooter down for who knows how long.Good luck sl4x7 and please keep us posted.Pics too if possible.

Tim

Alright. Here are the photos. I'm not the best photographer, but you can get an idea...

This is the new filter and the post that broke off. The post was actually inside the filter. I just backed it out with my thumb and it unscrewed right out of the filter.



Here is a close up of the post.



Here are the threads. You can see they aren't stripped.



And finally, this is the best picture I could get of the filter mount on the engine. It's not great, but you can see the post almost broke all the way off.

Looks to me like the aluminum probably wasn't too good when used in the mold.

jfrost2 wrote:Looks to me like the aluminum probably wasn't too good when used in the mold.

Looking at those pics, it sure doesn't look like undue force was used on those parts! I suspect you had a defective post in there, maybe something wrong when the metal was cast?
Stuff like this is supposed to be fairly common among Chinese mainland scooters... Their metallurgy skills are sometimes pretty awful! But I never heard of these kinds of problems occuring with Taiwanese scoots before... Maybe PGO farmed out this part to China?
-I hope this is not a harbinger of things to come now with Taiwanese scooters!

Y'know, I would change the title of this thread to "Defective Oil Filter Mount," if I was you..!!

One instance of a problem doesn't really constitute a harbinger of things to come.

It's up to the dealer to file something as a warranty claim, so you should have them examine it and let them know that in your opinion you were not using force beyond what's recommended and that you feel the part is defective and should be covered by warranty. They will make a determination and then submit the claim to Genuine.

One instance of a problem doesn't really constitute a harbinger of things to come.

You know, I agree with ericalm. I wouldn't take my experience as anything more than my experience. I don't know why it happened and I'm certainly grumpy about it, but there are no other cases like this and these scooters have been having their oil filters changed since 2006 at least. I suspect it's just one of those things. I'll call my dealer on Tuesday when they open and we'll see what we can work out. I'll let you all know how it goes.

sl4x7 wrote:

One instance of a problem doesn't really constitute a harbinger of things to come.

You know, I agree with ericalm. I wouldn't take my experience as anything more than my experience. I don't know why it happened and I'm certainly grumpy about it, but there are no other cases like this and these scooters have been having their oil filters changed since 2006 at least. I suspect it's just one of those things. I'll call my dealer on Tuesday when they open and we'll see what we can work out. I'll let you all know how it goes.

Definitely a defect, not an on going problem. Mine is torqued to 30lbs

maybe you screwed it on at an angle? that's odd though. hopefully the dealer will take care of it for free.

gearhead wrote:maybe you screwed it on at an angle? that's odd though. hopefully the dealer will take care of it for free.

No, look at the pictures. The threads are perfect

yeah but that post wont just crack in half by itself unless it was already cracked before

Actually, it happened to me about 4 months ago. I set my wrench for 12 ft/lb and never got there. Broke just like yours (wasn't it a sick feeling when it happened?)

Anyway, I didn't put in a warrently claim; maybe I should of (it sure looked like a bad cast to me), but I just ordered a new one from Metro Scooters for around 17 bucks. Came in about a week with the gasket, and is very easy to replace. Four bolts (forget the size) all easily accessible; take the old oil seat off, remove the old gasket; put the new gasket and seat on, and bolt it on (standard torque for bolt size (whatever it is, I don't remember) as set forth in shop manual).

I didn't "reuse" the new oil filter just because of the bad mojo.

gearhead wrote:yeah but that post wont just crack in half by itself unless it was already cracked before

All there has to be is an air bubble in the casting which could be invisible to the naked eye. This would cause a weak spot and it would break.

loodieboy - Not that I would wish it on anyone, but it's good to know someone else had this same problem and I'm not the first. Only a $17 part? That's awesome. I did take a look and I think I can see the bolts that you are talking about.

Did you have to remove anything else to change this out? I thought it looked like the bottom of the exhaust pipe may get in the way, but if you did it without removing it, that's even better news for me.

I will call the scooter shop tomorrow.

Here's a link to a crankcase diagram for a PGO Ligero 125, which I believe to be the same as the Buddy (correct me if I'm wrong):

http://pgo3.e-work.com.tw/e_product_sho ... type=35264

It looks like your need would be for part #'s 25 and 27 in the diagram.

charlie55 wrote:Here's a link to a crankcase diagram for a PGO Ligero 125, which I believe to be the same as the Buddy (correct me if I'm wrong):

http://pgo3.e-work.com.tw/e_product_sho ... type=35264

It looks like your need would be for part #'s 25 and 27 in the diagram.

Link takes me to nowhere

ScooterTrash wrote:

charlie55 wrote:Here's a link to a crankcase diagram for a PGO Ligero 125, which I believe to be the same as the Buddy (correct me if I'm wrong):

http://pgo3.e-work.com.tw/e_product_sho ... type=35264

It looks like your need would be for part #'s 25 and 27 in the diagram.

Link takes me to nowhere

It's kind of zen like that.

You have to log in as Guest and then locate the image. It should also be in the Buddy 125 parts diagrams. PDF here.

sl4x7, I checked things over when I got home from work today.

The correct parts are, as noted above, 25 (oil filter seat), and 27 (gasket).

Yes, you will have to remove the muffler to replace the oil filter seat, I forgot about that, but it is straightforward. I'm assuming you have the stock muffler on? The pipe is secured underneath with 2 12mm brass acorn nuts (you will need a deep socket for those), and the muffler bracket itself with 2 12mm bolts. There is a textured 'washer' (or manifold gasket) between the pipe and manifold; don't forget to put it back when you reinstall (some folks suggest replacing it every time you remove the muffler, but I haven't).

Once you remove the muffler, you have a clean shot at the oil filter seat. There are three (not four) 10mm bolts securing the oil filter seat. I had no problem getting to them with a ¼ inch ratchet and 10mm standard socket. Remove them and the seat comes off cleanly. Clean up whatever remains of the old gasket.

You will want to clean the new oil filter seat before proceeding. I squirted mine with carb cleaner, paying attention to those oil channels (didn't want any stray pieces of left-behind metal from the manufacturing process visiting my motor) and let it dry. Line up the new gasket and oil filter seat, then reinsert the bolts (I used blue loctite on the threads) and tighten them up. The standard torque for 10mm bolts, per the Buddy manual, is 3.4 - 4 (kgf-m), or 24.58 - 28.9 ft/lbs. Or just go by feel but snug them up. You don't want an oil leak here.

Reinstall the muffler, and don't forget that manifold gasket. Start the two acorn nuts underneath and the two muffler bracket bolts loosely, you'll want enough play to cleanly seat the pipe. Tighten the acorn nuts first, alternating between the two until nice and snug - you may want to use high-temp loctite on the threads (I don't). Finally, tighten up the 2 rear muffler bracket bolts.

Good luck, and get back on the road soon.

[Edited because, well, because.]

Good job on that post loodieboy! Thanks!

Thank you so much loodieboy. That post wins the award for the most helpful this week. I will print it out and follow it once I get the parts. Thanks again!

loodieboy wrote:Actually, it happened to me about 4 months ago. I set my wrench for 12 ft/lb and never got there. Broke just like yours (wasn't it a sick feeling when it happened?)

Anyway, I didn't put in a warrently claim; maybe I should of (it sure looked like a bad cast to me), but I just ordered a new one from Metro Scooters for around 17 bucks. Came in about a week with the gasket, and is very easy to replace. Four bolts (forget the size) all easily accessible; take the old oil seat off, remove the old gasket; put the new gasket and seat on, and bolt it on (standard torque for bolt size (whatever it is, I don't remember) as set forth in shop manual).

I didn't "reuse" the new oil filter just because of the bad mojo.

Great post, and reinforces the inherent, cost-effective "goodness" of the Genuine Buddy. This could easily be a several hundred dollar ordeal on other makes....

At the risk of sounding preachy, let me throw three footnotes out there and then I'll shut up. 1) PLEASE use eye protection, especially when using carb cleaner or other pressurized caustics. 2) Use 6 pt sockets (if possible), especially on those acorn nuts - they are brass and much easier to round or strip than most steel. 3) Get a buddy to hold that muffler when you remove and install it, it can be awkward to deal with alone. That being said, my buddy was my left knee. You'll see what I mean.

WOW The problem that I have was that my oil filter was not tight enough, which spun off and threw oil all over my rear tire and damaged the engine. Good luck on getting it covered so far my dealer has not heard a reponse from Geniune yet.


Jon

scooterjon wrote:WOW The problem that I have was that my oil filter was not tight enough, which spun off and threw oil all over my rear tire and damaged the engine. Good luck on getting it covered so far my dealer has not heard a reponse from Geniune yet.


Jon

Hi Jon-

You may have posted about this before and I've missed it but who did the oil change?

It's tempting to want to go directly to Genuine in this case but we've seen the best results here with people really pushing their dealers. To be sure, it does seem like Genuine can drag their feet on issues like this which is a bummer for your dealer to have to deal with but if they are a squeaky enough wheel they can get a response.

Also, keep in mind (again I don't know your dealer etc) that if the dealer did this (under tightened the filter- there has been a TSB sent to dealers I believe about how tight the filters should be), it wouldn't be unfair for you to lean on them to get you up and running and let them deal with the rest on their own.

Again, you may know all this or have been told it before, I just thought I'd throw it out there! Best of luck getting running again!

Happened to me too, last summer. I also used a torque wrench and didn't get to 12-14. Maybe I was stupid and wasn't paying attention - I don't know. I still remember the sick feeling when it broke. So, yes, the oil filter post will snap off before the oil filter will. I now torque the filter in the 10-12 range and I'm nervous like a balloon is about to pop.
It was an inexpensive part but it took about six weeks to get it from Scooter Works. That is a story for another time.

PLEASE report this to Genuine as a warranty claim.

If several people have experienced this and no one has reported it and attempted to get it fixed under warranty then Genuine will NOT have any data to determine IF this is a defective part.

Your Vehicle number and date of manufacture should lead back to a specific lot number on this component. Given sufficient numbers of defects Genuine should initiate a corrective action request through PGO's Quality Assurance Department.

Please make the effort to let Genuine Know of this issue- IT COULD LEAD TO A PRODUCT RECALL.
This type of failure could also happen due to vibration while riding and or hitting a bump while driving. Which could be catastrophic.

I would report it directly to Phil at Genuine Scooters

Len wrote:PLEASE report this to Genuine as a warranty claim.

If several people have experienced this and no one has reported it and attempted to get it fixed under warranty then Genuine will NOT have any data to determine IF this is a defective part.

Your Vehicle number and date of manufacture should lead back to a specific lot number on this component. Given sufficient numbers of defects Genuine should initiate a corrective action request through PGO's Quality Assurance Department.

Please make the effort to let Genuine Know of this issue- IT COULD LEAD TO A PRODUCT RECALL.
This type of failure could also happen due to vibration while riding and or hitting a bump while driving. Which could be catastrophic.

I would report it directly to Phil at Genuine Scooters

Dude, do you realize you are spouting off on a post that is 3 years old discussing a one-off problem that has never been mentioned as a problem again since? What are you smoking?

Len wrote:PLEASE report this to Genuine as a warranty claim.

If several people have experienced this and no one has reported it and attempted to get it fixed under warranty then Genuine will NOT have any data to determine IF this is a defective part.

Your Vehicle number and date of manufacture should lead back to a specific lot number on this component. Given sufficient numbers of defects Genuine should initiate a corrective action request through PGO's Quality Assurance Department.

Please make the effort to let Genuine Know of this issue- IT COULD LEAD TO A PRODUCT RECALL.
This type of failure could also happen due to vibration while riding and or hitting a bump while driving. Which could be catastrophic.

I would report it directly to Phil at Genuine Scooters

Len, this thread is from 2009. In 6 years, we've had fewer than 10 reports that I can find of this happening. No one has ever reported this happening while riding or doing anything other than putting the filter on. I know mechanics who have done hundreds of Buddy oil changes. I'll ask, but none have ever told me about this happening. (And I often hear about this kind of thing.)

Mandatory recalls only happen when there's a clear safety issue, which this is not. At worst, maybe a handful of defective bolts out of thousands in a six year period. That doesn't even warrant a voluntary recall. Some of the breaks were likely due to over-torqueing the filter.

I had totally forgotten about this whole thing. It's nice to see the forum is still up and running.

This was the only time it ever happened. I replaced the part easily and everything was smooth sailing for another 6 weeks or so before a texting teenager crushed me and my Buddy between his SUV and the one I was sitting behind while waiting for a stoplight to turn green. A quick trip to the ER for me and I turned out ok.... Not so much for the buddy though.

Oh well, I'm glad this post and forum is still around just in case someone needs that odd advice on something that I truly belive is a once in a lifetime event. There is no defect.

sl4x7 wrote:I had totally forgotten about this whole thing. It's nice to see the forum is still up and running.

This was the only time it ever happened. I replaced the part easily and everything was smooth sailing for another 6 weeks or so before a texting teenager crushed me and my Buddy between his SUV and the one I was sitting behind while waiting for a stoplight to turn green. A quick trip to the ER for me and I turned out ok.... Not so much for the buddy though.

Oh well, I'm glad this post and forum is still around just in case someone needs that odd advice on something that I truly belive is a once in a lifetime event. There is no defect.

Still here. Yup.

Sorry to hear about the crash! Glad you're okay. My Stella was taken out by an inattentive teen as well. I was lucky to limp away.

Thanks for your reply.

I think you definitely need to make a warrenty claim. I am not a mechanic but I am a metalsmith and that really looks like a bad casting. Either the temp wasn't quite right or the alloy was off. That is what it really looks like. There was no distortion of the threads or cracking on the outside that you would get if you gave it so much torque that it broke. If the alloy wasnt quite right, or if for some reason the temp was not correct to maintain the correct melting point and it cooled unevenly, yours would not be the only faulty piece like that and Genuine needs to know that.

Good luck and hope you get it fixed soon.

Mutt the Hoople wrote:I think you definitely need to make a warrenty claim. I am not a mechanic but I am a metalsmith and that really looks like a bad casting. Either the temp wasn't quite right or the alloy was off. That is what it really looks like. There was no distortion of the threads or cracking on the outside that you would get if you gave it so much torque that it broke. If the alloy wasnt quite right, or if for some reason the temp was not correct to maintain the correct melting point and it cooled unevenly, yours would not be the only faulty piece like that and Genuine needs to know that.

Good luck and hope you get it fixed soon.

Again, this thread is 3 years old...

That's it. I'm making an appointment to get my eyes checked in the morning. Did not see the orig. date. Whoops!

Mutt the Hoople wrote:That's it. I'm making an appointment to get my eyes checked in the morning. Did not see the orig. date. Whoops!

lol Every so often these long dead threads get brought back. Usually by spammer robots. It's easy to miss.

Well, I for one am GLAD the thread got resurrected because Buddylicious's list of all the things it was analogous to had me crying with laughter! 'That is like saying, "I was cleaning my tire and it tore in half" or "I twisted my throttle and the front end fell off"' -- zomg that list is hilarious.

I wonder what happened to jfrost2? Used to be, he would post at least once an hour, but now it's been almost a year. Where are you Frosty? We miss you.

Syd wrote:I wonder what happened to jfrost2? Used to be, he would post at least once an hour, but now it's been almost a year. Where are you Frosty? We miss you.

He had some mechanical issue, got really frustrated and never came back!

ericalm wrote:

Syd wrote:I wonder what happened to jfrost2? Used to be, he would post at least once an hour, but now it's been almost a year. Where are you Frosty? We miss you.

He had some mechanical issue, got really frustrated and never came back!

Really? Too bad. He's probably riding a SunL now!