Modern Buddy

So, I'm installing LED surge protectors to protect (go figure) my new LEDS from surges. The LED's replace the deadlights and are being used with lil Buddy's deadlights to running lights mod harness thingy... The surge protector installation seems simple enough but as I am no electrical wiz I thought I'd post a quick post to gather advise and see if I should keep anything particular in mind while doing this mod. The brilliant and detailed surge protector installation instructions are posted below. Best I can tell, you just cut the ground wire and insert the protector between the cut. Is that it? Anything more to it?

lil Buddy, if there is a way to attach the protector to the harness directly that would be my first preference.

Thanks all.

Skootz Kabootz wrote:lil Buddy, if there is a way to attach the protector to the harness directly that would be my first preference.

Thats the best way to do it.....don't cut the wires coming from your scooter. You can either cut the black wire on my adapter a couple inches before the plastic clip and install it there. Or, send the adapter and protectors to me and I will put clips on the protectors so that nothing is cut. They would just plug into the adapter and then into the running light clips. PM me for details on that if you are interested.

Lil Buddy wrote:

Skootz Kabootz wrote:lil Buddy, if there is a way to attach the protector to the harness directly that would be my first preference.

Thats the best way to do it.....don't cut the wires coming from your scooter. You can either cut the black wire on my adapter a couple inches before the plastic clip and install it there. Or, send the adapter and protectors to me and I will put clips on the protectors so that nothing is cut. They would just plug into the adapter and then into the running light clips. PM me for details on that if you are interested.

Sweet. Thanks LB. Really nice to have that option. I expect the protectors to arrive today or tomorrow. I'll give them a look over and figure out which is the best way to proceed. Cheers.

Thought ya'll might like to see what arrived. 2 protectors. Total cost $4. Looks like installation should be simple enough...

I'm not an electrical engineer, but those look line in-line resistors to me. Kinda looks like you paid $4 for nothing. If you want surge protection (Never heard of power surges in cars or bikes blowing out LED lights but whatever), use a fuse.

Just looking at those things raises my BS flag.

The surge comes when the bike is started. There's lot's of threads here discussing this. Think you can safely lower your flag...


http://autolumination.com/equalizers.htm

can't be much of a surge if it doesn't fry your light bulbs and electronic speedo (rattler)

I find it hard to believe that the output from the stator is unregulated

Ray Knobs wrote:...I find it hard to believe that the output from the stator is unregulated

Or that the stator is so feeble it can't generate enough juice to power the two stock amber bulbs in the deadlights when you connect them. Who'd a thunk it.

Speaking of all this,is there any way to up the wattage output on the Buddy.Or for that matter any scoot.Or is this one of those things that can only be manufactured at the factory from the git go.I think I already know the answer but thought I would ask just to be sure.

BuddyLicious wrote:Speaking of all this,is there any way to up the wattage output on the Buddy.Or for that matter any scoot.Or is this one of those things that can only be manufactured at the factory from the git go.I think I already know the answer but thought I would ask just to be sure.

I've been wishing for the same thing. I would so love to be able to put some really bright PIAA's or Silverstar's lights in where my deadlights are (assuming they wouldn't melt the housing...). Maybe in a future model year Genuine will upgrade the max wattage...

Ray Knobs wrote:can't be much of a surge if it doesn't fry your light bulbs and electronic speedo (rattler)

I find it hard to believe that the output from the stator is unregulated

LED's are very sensitive to voltage. In a system that already uses LED's, the protection is already in place. The Buddy has incandesent bulbs (the stock blinkers...now the running lights in this case) so no protection is there.

BuddyJ wrote:I'm not an electrical engineer, but those look line in-line resistors to me. Kinda looks like you paid $4 for nothing. If you want surge protection (Never heard of power surges in cars or bikes blowing out LED lights but whatever), use a fuse.

I used to be an electrical engineer. Let's see if I can remember any of it.

A key characteristic of an LED is that it has a constant voltage drop, usually around 1.7V. If you apply less voltage, nothing happens. Exceed that voltage and it glows.

Since nobody supplies EXACTLY that voltage there has to be some resistance somewhere else in the circuit. If the supplied voltage is close, the resistance of the wire may be sufficient. Normally there's an added resistor in series with the LED.

Resistors have the characteristic that the voltage drop across them is proportional to the current flowing through them. You can calculate how big a resistor you need by the equation V = I x R.

V = voltage = supplied voltage - 1.7V
I = current = whatever the milliamp rating is of your LED (typically 35 mA)
R = resistance of the resistor

Now getting back to scooters. The headlight circuit on a scooter is USUALLY unregulated AC, direct from the stator, that is clipped by the voltage regulator to around 17 VAC. This means that if the voltage regulator is hooked up and working the headlight doesn't see anything worse than 17 V.

If the regulator ISN'T working the headlight can see voltages as high as 75 VAC, which is why blown headlights usually mean a bad regulator.

Turn signals, on the other hand, are powered by the battery. The voltages there are usually between 12 and 15 VDC (depending on the state of the battery and the charging circuitry). You'll only see the higher voltages if the voltage regulator IS working.

I know this has gotten long (I've been inspired this morning!) so let's get to the bottom line:

The items in the picture look to be resistors. If you're using automotive LEDs (designed for 12V systems) they are unnecessary.

If you want surge protection for your LEDs beyond what's provided by the voltage regulator, get a 17V Zener diode and install it ACROSS (not in series!) the LED.

I really don't think these things are necessary.

Thanks Kurt. I knew someone here would be able to explain this

I'm hoping you're wrong though about these being resistors. After all, they are specifically sold as surge protectors Here's the link They're at the bottom of the page.

I've sent the protectors and my harness to lil Buddy who is going to do the harness mod for me (mad props to lil Buddy for great customer service ) He knows more about this stuff than I. If the protectors are indeed the wrong thing for the job, we'll figure it out and report back.

On an entrepreneurial side note... as so many of us are using the LED bulbs in our no-longer-deadlights, Lil Buddy, maybe you could start making a "premium" deadlights harness that has the LED surge protection already built in? I'd'a bought one...

Thanks for the explanation Kurt. Scooter electrical systems are new ground for me and that cleared up a lot.

Lil Buddy wrote:In a system that already uses LED's, the protection is already in place.

Like the standard LED brake light?

Skootz Kabootz wrote:Lil Buddy, maybe you could start making a "premium" deadlights harness that has the LED surge protection already built in? I'd'a bought one...

Haha, already looking into it!!

Orange Guy wrote:Lil Buddy wrote:
In a system that already uses LED's, the protection is already in place.


Like the standard LED brake light?

Don't know. My 06 has an incandescent brake light.

Kurt wrote:The headlight circuit on a scooter is USUALLY unregulated AC, direct from the stator, that is clipped by the voltage regulator to around 17 VAC. This means that if the voltage regulator is hooked up and working the headlight doesn't see anything worse than 17 V.

Turn signals, on the other hand, are powered by the battery. The voltages there are usually between 12 and 15 VDC (depending on the state of the battery and the charging circuitry). You'll only see the higher voltages if the voltage regulator IS working.

The OP was refering to running lights hooked up to the ignition, not the headlight or blinkers. I'm guessing this set up is subject to a higher range of voltage. Correct? Maybe its time I dust off the old voltage meter
One set of LED's I have says "for use in 12V-13.8V applications"


On a side not, I did some experiments today with my BOB adapter. Trying LED's in different configurations and what not. I noticed that the LED bulbs I was using (2 different sets) had resistors built into them. Once I get out and ride some more I will report on how my LED's are holding up. I will be running LED's in both the DOT blinkers and running lights (with my BOB adapter installed).

Skootz....Do you know if your LED bulbs have a resistor built in?

Lil Buddy wrote:Skootz....Do you know if your LED bulbs have a resistor built in?

Heck, beats me. I would think my first set did not because they're all disco (fried) now. I just bought a pair of these when I got my protectors and I kinda doubt they do either. At least, it doesn't mention it specifically anywhere.

I believe all LED's have them....but I could be wrong. But that leads me to this question.....If the LED has a resistor already, what good will adding another resistor do (besides obviously lowering the resistance further)?

In the photo you can see the top of a light blue resistor inside the bulb.



I guess we will see if this does indeed work. Your first set of LED's went disco pretty quick didn't they? Is this the company that let you return them for new ones?

I think the first bulb went bad in about 2-3 weeks. The second followed shortly after.

Lil Buddy wrote:Is this the company that let you return them for new ones?

No. First bulbs came from some place on Ebay. They were pretty cheap.

The bulbs I have waiting to install come from the same place as the surge protectors. Seems weird they would sell surge protectors and warn about LED's dieing prematurely if their bulbs already have adequate protection installed. If there indeed is protection in the bulbs, maybe it is just not sufficient for the type of electrical supply we have?

Could also be that my first bulbs just sucked big time...

I just read a bunch of MB threads and figured I'd follow all the advice about surge protectors...

Skootz Kabootz wrote:Seems weird they would sell surge protectors and warn about LED's dieing prematurely if their bulbs already have adequate protection installed.

Well, now I'd like to take a minute to talk to you about our rustproof undercoating ...

Lil Buddy wrote:.....In the photo you can see the top of a light blue resistor inside the bulb.....

Not trying to nitpick, but I don't think that that'd be a resistor. Looks like 3 blue bands, which would give it a value of 66M Ohms: so large that the LED's would never be able to draw enough current through it.

Looks more the color coding for an inductor or capacitor. It also looks as if that whitish thing with the copper-colored band (slightly behind and to the right of the blue-banded component) might be a small wound coil of some type. I'm only going on a hunch here, but I think that there's a lot more to the innards of that bulb than meets the eye, i.e., some sort of constant voltage or constant current circuit. (It's be nice to bust one open and take a look at the components).

Resistors alone can't protect LEDs adequately in circumstances where significant voltage swings are expected. For example, let's say that your LED is powered by a very steady 12 volt source. In that case (and I won't get into Ohm's law and such), you would determine that a resistor of value "X" would be sufficient to allow the LED to draw it's recommended amount of current. However, a significant voltage spike would result in the LED drawing more current. In other words, the resistor is passive and cannot adapt to voltage changes. If you try to compensate for the maximum anticipated voltage by using a larger or additional resistor, the your LED won't be able to draw enough current at "normal" voltage and will not glow as brightly.

When I was into model railroading, one of the desired effects on locomotives was to have as near to "constant intensity" headlights as possible. Using an LED as a headlight for example, the ideal was to have it shine at a constant brightness (i.e., drawing a constant current) at track voltages varying from it's initial threshold voltage (2 or more volts, depending upon the type) up to 12 or more volts. Since resistance can't provide this funtionality, we wound up home-brewing constant-current circuits from TL431's.

Whoa, sorry for getting all technical, but sometimes I just can't resist.

charlie55 wrote: Whoa, sorry for getting all technical, but sometimes I just can't resist.

Sorry for what? Go ahead and let all that infomation spew out. Until we find an EE that is also a scooter guru and all around Einstien that just happens to be a member here, its all gonna be trial and error.

OK, this is so totally over my head I have not the slightest clue about what any of you all are talking about.

With that in mind...

I would like to replace as many of the lights as possible with LEDs. I found different threads that detail what bulbs I am looking for so I am going to order those. I am going to order LB's plug and play mod (hopefully with the whatever whatchamacallit thing that is being discussed here-we will discuss that by PM).

I ALSO am hoping that by replacing the stock bulbs with LEDs I will "free up" enough capacity to handle adding some additional LEDs to my system. I purchased some orange "Electropods" see www.electropods.com and I am hoping to add a few of these. LB, is this what you have on your scoot?

I think the electropods products that have the on off switches come with all of the stuff needed to safely hook directly to the battery.

Advice, thoughts, ideas, warnings?

Thanks,
-v

Vic:

If you, or another person can let me know the type number of the original incandescent bulbs and how many there are of them, I can give you a figure as to how much current they draw in total.

Then we'd need to find out what types of LED's you want to use. Given a little time, I can try to find out how much current they draw, and, consequently, how many of them you can safely use in place of the incandescents.

Just lemme know.....

charlie

Charlie55 and Vic and everyone else playing along,

Here is some info on using LED's on the buddy.....
topic11096.html

It includes the total watts for different set-ups.

Problem is that with the stock flasher in the Buddy, you can't just replace all of the incandescent lights with LED's. You need enough current to make it flash at the correct rate. Or you need to find a new flasher that does not have the "bulb out" function or one that is made for LED's. And then it has to fit the Buddy

Rather than looking for another flasher to accommodate the lower current draw of the LEDs, you could always put a dummy load (resistor of suitable value and wattage rating) in parallel. That way, the LEDs would draw whatever current they needed, the dummy load would draw the current it needed, and the total of the two would be enough to keep the flasher happy.

It'd take a bit of math to figure out, but shouldn't be all that hard to do. I'd be more than happy to lend a hand with the calcs.

charlie55 wrote:Rather than looking for another flasher to accommodate the lower current draw of the LEDs, you could always put a dummy load (resistor of suitable value and wattage rating) in parallel.

Just curious, aside from the ease of installation, and actually finding something on the shelf that will work....why would you reccomend a load resistor over a new flasher? The Buddy is pretty cramped behind the front cover. It could be tricky to find a spot to mount the resistor away from any plastic and wires. But then again, also tricky to find a flasher that will work.

charlie55 wrote:It'd take a bit of math to figure out, but shouldn't be all that hard to do. I'd be more than happy to lend a hand with the calcs.

Are you talking about using a bare resistor? Not a ready made one with heat sink already in place?

Either way, wanna play with the numbers for turning all of the current incandescents to LED's?
That would mean LED's as:
DOT blinkers (20 watts stock X 2), running lights that double as blinkers (10 watts stock X 2), and rear blinkers (10 watts stock X 2).

And back to the original post, what info would you need to come up with a plan to protect LED running lights that are on as the scooter is starting?

I am one of those who managed to put together a 3 way switch, and only needed to glance at the reference books a few times in the process, and was shocked and thrilled when it actually worked. That is the extent of my electrical experience and knowledge. Sadly, it does me absolutely no good here.

I am wondering if adding the dead lights as an additional load (making them turn signals also) would help with pulling enough to make the blinkers work properly? I have no clue what kind of a load is necessary and how much the stock bulbs or how much of a difference the LEDs pull.

Does anyone know how much "juice" there is "to spare" from a stock Buddy's system? Also, how do you know if you are pulling too much (short of walking out and finding you have a dead battery).

Thanks,
-v

well Vic, I think lil buddy said there is about 20w extra power, just enough for the stock running lights. I wired mine to the horn and walked out to a dead battery (buddy 50 = crappy little 3Ah battery) so I upgraded the battery to a 12V 8Ah battery. btw if you want to do this on a buddy 50 it will require some cutting of the plastic battery cover. I haven't had any problems since. If you were to use LEDs instead of the stock bulbs there should be plenty of juice left for extra LED lights.

Folks:

I've seen a flaw in my thinking (using a parallel resistance to load the flasher relay into normal operation).

The problem is that I'd essentially be squandering the power saved in switching to LEDS by merely using that power to heat up a resistor. So, scratch that idea.....

However, I was poking around a Kawi forum and they were discussing similar problems in converting to LEDs. The suggestion was to go for an electronic (as opposed to electromechanical) flasher relay. Did some further poking and came up with this:

http://www.tobefast.com/custom-led-elec ... r-955.html

Looks to be pretty much what you guys would need in that it'll trigger under loads from half an Amp (500ma) to 10 Amps.

Working off the numbers in that other thread cited by Lil' Buddy, it looks as if the worst case scenario (i.e., most LEDs, lowest current draw) chewed up 32 Watts. I'm assuming that this would be in hazard flasher mode since it's given as a "times 2" result. That being the case, pure directional use would use up 16 Watts, which at a nominal 12 Volts, would mean a current draw of 1.33 Amps. According to the electronic flasher spec, this should be more than enough to trigger the flash cycle.

Hope this helps.....

If by chance you're going with <a href="http://www.superbrightleds.com/flashers ... ds.com<</a> (scroll down to bottom of page), they have their own digital flasher relays that you can wire into your bike. They have a flat or pin connector. Supposedly, they flash at the same rate no matter what the load is. This is the way you want to convert to LED turn signals (at least if you're doing it for electrical draw savings).

charlie55 wrote:Folks:
I've seen a flaw in my thinking (using a parallel resistance to load the flasher relay into normal operation).

Like I said, this is going to be trial and error. We will get it though........

charlie55 wrote:Working off the numbers in that other thread cited by Lil' Buddy, it looks as if the worst case scenario (i.e., most LEDs, lowest current draw) chewed up 32 Watts. I'm assuming that this would be in hazard flasher mode since it's given as a "times 2" result

The X 2 in my post was for right and left. So actually, with all LEDs (DOT blinkers, Running lights and Rear blinkers, the lowest load with all LED's would be 18 watts. If your LED's are pulling 3 watts. That seems to be about the average load for 1156 LED's.

So thats a current draw of .75 amps when the blinkers are on....very nice!

I have looked at that exact flasher you mentioned above. The Buddy has a 3 wire flasher relay. This on is two but it says it can work with three with some modifications. Will see, gonna order it soon.

Skootz Kabootz wrote: I'm hoping you're wrong though about these being resistors. After all, they are specifically sold as surge protectors Here's the link They're at the bottom of the page.

Well, this is what that "surge protector" is. I ordered two, then removed the shrink tube.

Skootz Kabootz wrote: I've sent the protectors and my harness to lil Buddy who is going to do the harness mod for me (mad props to lil Buddy for great customer service )

Thanks for the props
I'm sending you the "new and improved" (on the right) as well as the original. Give the new one a try with your LED's installed. We will all be waiting to hear how it works!

Most excellent. Thanks lil Buddy. Cross your fingers every one...

Anyone recognize what the little beige thingy in the surge protector is?

[edit to add: did some digging and I think the beige thingy might be a 1/4Watt resistor w/5% tolerance... anyone?]

Yup, it's just a resistor. If the colors on my screen are accurate, it's banded brown-black-brown, which would make it 100 Ohms.

Calling this a "surge protector" is, shall we say, a bit of a stretch.

charlie55 wrote:Yup, it's just a resistor. If the colors on my screen are accurate, it's banded brown-black-brown, which would make it 100 Ohms.

Calling this a "surge protector" is, shall we say, a bit of a stretch.

Thanks for the confirmation. Hey, for $1.99, if they save my bulbs they can call them anything they want Keep your fingers crossed!

New harness with surge protectors/resistors is installed (thanks lil Buddy). So far so good. New bulbs look great, much brighter than my old ones. Going on a 70 mile ride tomorrow which should give things a pretty good initial test. Fingers are crossed. I'll keep ya posted...

I purchased the dead to running light harness about 6 months ago. I then install the 25-bulb superwhite LED's. I haven't had a single problem with them.
The reason why I mention this is: if there is a serious surge issue when starting the scooter, shouldn't EVERY scooter blow the LED's? It doesn't seem like there could be exceptions. Is it possible that some folks got bad LED's?

Most of this discussion is over my head, but I am interested in more lighting, so I following along as best I can.

Howard

Glad to hear you have had no problems. That is reassuring. I think definitely the quality of the LED's is a factor. My first ones to be sure were el cheapo's. The new one's I've just put in are much brighter so no doubt that speaks to better quality. Between better quality bulbs and some surge protection, I just hope the problem has been solved!

So far so good. Everything is absolutely perfect. Now... the test of time. I'll post another update in a few weeks....

Bump for update, please?

My white LED running lights have lost several of the LED bulbs, so I'd like to know if I should order these protectors when I replace them. THANKS.

So far everything is perfect. I've ridden somewhere around 500 miles since the install. I was going to wait until after we ride from LA to San Jose and back (about a 1000 mile trip all in all) to make my final determination. I figure if nothing goes wrong after that long a ride, things are probably AOK.

Personally, I think it has more to do with the quality of LED's more so then the surge protectors. But only time will tell...............

UPDATE: Well, I've put 2000 miles my new LED adapter with surge protectors and my MatrixII LED bulbs and everything is AOK. It looks like the dead battery and fried LED bulb gremlins have been whipped. Sweeeet.

Is there a place, like a radio shak or some other place, I can go out and purchase the resistor?

What do I ask for? Type? Etc.

Lil Buddy sells the pre-made adaptors.