Terrible clattering sound

JettaKnight · Post by **JettaKnight** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:43 pm

My Buddy ran dry today.

The oil filter worked itself loose and lost a fair amount of oil. While riding it suddenly lost power and I pulled over and saw what was happening. I filled it up (AutoZone was only a block away) and when I restarted it there was a awful clattering / pinging / clicking noise that hasn't gone away after two miles.

Any idea what I destroyed to do this?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:10 am

Awww, man...DON'T tell me this! I just had the same experience and I too keep hearing noises that didn't used to be there. Not so bad as yours, though.

The noises could be various things, depending on where the oil starvation occured. I keep hearing "clattering" type noises in the case, leading me to believe that perhaps the rod bearing was damaged. That could be the case with yours as well. This would mean a total engine rebuild. It could also be valve-train noise if the noise is coming from that end.

I'm hoping mine will hold out until the big-bore kits are available.

Also, since it isn't a malfunction of any particular mechanical part, it's doubtful it would be covered under the warranty. That being said, there have been a number of us have experienced this...perhaps it's a design flaw.

--Keys

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:46 am

How many miles on the Buddy? And have you or the dealer done an oil change? It's possible it was not properly installed by them at some point (pre delivery, oil change) and they may be responsible for a repair. Convincing them of that may not be too easy...

Corsair · Post by **Corsair** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:49 am

MAN! That sucks. Has anyone contacted Genuine about this? This really seems like something they should make a recall for if so many people are having this problem.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:02 am

A recall normally only happens if something proves defective and can cause permanent damage or injury. I don't think this is the case with the dropped oil filters. If so, it's a problem with the threading on the Buddy they should correct but it doesn't seem to occur with enough frequency to warrant a recall. These filters are used with other scoots which don't have this problem. If it were a widespread problem with the Buddys, it probably would have popped up on the BuBu or Ligero and have been corrected by PGO by now.

I suspect, instead, they're just not being tightened correctly and are working loose. I could be wrong, but it's still probably not a recall issue.

JettaKnight · Post by **JettaKnight** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:38 am

The oil filter worked itself loose after the 200 mi. oil change last night. It appears I didn't get the Piaggio filter on tight enough.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:41 am

Eric is probably right. It's gonna be just one of those things you oughta check at least once a week.

--Keys

San Francisco · Post by **San Francisco** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:31 am

JettaKnight wrote:The oil filter worked itself loose after the 200 mi. oil change last night. It appears I didn't get the Piaggio filter on tight enough.

Are you saying that YOU did the oil change?

Assuming it was the dealer [which I guess it was not in your situation] I
always check the scooter for leaks, failure to tighten things down, etc.

Those Jiffy Lube places are notorious for screwing up the drain plugs and
filters to where engines have blown up. Cause: the help they hire to
do the work.

I have a friend whose son worked at one of those. He was a crackhead
loser, yet he was doing the oil changes and other critical stuff on cars.

Sorry for what looks to be a loss. At least it's only a scooter. For as low
as the cost will probably be for the dealer to fix, I'd put a new engine in it
rather than fool with a repair or rebuild.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:24 am

JettaKnight wrote:The oil filter worked itself loose after the 200 mi. oil change last night. It appears I didn't get the Piaggio filter on tight enough.

Yeah, the dealer and Genuine are obviously not responsible in that case, sorry.

Also, the first service is the only one that MUST be performed by your dealer in order to keep the warranty valid. It's important because they (should) give the scoot a full once-over in addition to changing the oil, cleaning the air filter and so on.

JettaKnight · Post by **JettaKnight** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:43 pm

Yes, I did the oil change. I rode to work the morning after without any leaks. Probably three miles into my ride home it was pumping oil onto the ground.

I guess I'll take it over to the Vespa dealer and have them take a listen. Perhaps this is the impetus I need to buy the 177 kit.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:52 pm

JettaKnight wrote:Yes, I did the oil change. I rode to work the morning after without any leaks. Probably three miles into my ride home it was pumping oil onto the ground.

I guess I'll take it over to the Vespa dealer and have them take a listen. Perhaps this is the impetus I need to buy the 177 kit.

The impetus may be there. Now all we need is a kit!

jgalar · Post by **jgalar** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:25 pm

Just an educated guess...
From looking at the service manual the cam and lower end bearings appear to be roller bearings so they should survive a momentary loss of lubrication??

My guess is the wrist pin started to seize in the piston. The pin/bushing is most likely lubed by splash. As the pin started to seize in the piston you would loose power. The rattle noise may be the piston is now loose on the pin.

The cam followers also ride on bushings so could receive wear but are operating at 1/2 the speed of the crank/piston.

JettaKnight · Post by **JettaKnight** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:35 am

jgalar wrote:Just an educated guess...

My guess is the wrist pin started to seize in the piston. The pin/bushing is most likely lubed by splash. As the pin started to seize in the piston you would loose power. The rattle noise may be the piston is now loose on the pin.

I think that's it. Metallic rattle, increases with speed. Now I'll make my educated guess, if I continue to run it it will eventually wear out the cylinder and maybe wear the big end of the connecting rod, but won't cause a catastrophic failure e.g. blow rod. Comments?

I did pop off the head cover and did a cursory check - everything looks good and feels tight. I don't think there was a sustained oil loss to do damage there.

jgalar · Post by **jgalar** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:02 am

I can't comment much on the engine except for looking at the crummy photos in the online service manual. I don't know if the piston is pressed on the pin and it pivots on a bushing in the rod or if the pin is pressed on the rod and pivots in the piston. I would guess the first. If it is a loose piston that wouldn't be too expensive, but if the bushing in the rod is hosed you would need a new crankshaft unless a machine shop could install a new bushing. The crankshaft is most likely pressed together.

JettaKnight · Post by **JettaKnight** » Sun May 13, 2007 2:13 am

I got it back today. $1600 and a new engine and the old one in the box. They replaced the entire drivetrain from the starter all the way to the brake shoes.

Any want to buy a damaged engine?

C'est la vie.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Sun May 13, 2007 6:07 am

JettaKnight wrote:I got it back today. $1600 and a new engine and the old one in the box. They replaced the entire drivetrain from the starter all the way to the brake shoes.

Any want to buy a damaged engine?

C'est la vie.

maybe....how much?

EBee · Post by **EBee** » Mon May 14, 2007 11:18 am

Ugh. So much for doing your own oil changes. Now I'm even MORE intimidated.

Luckily for me my dealer isn't too far away...

jgalar · Post by **jgalar** » Mon May 14, 2007 12:33 pm

Tear the engine down and part it out. You should be able to get back some of your expense although it will take awhile.

Sooner or later someone is going to need a bolt or some misc. part.

Post a topic here stating you have Buddy engine parts for sale and bump it up from time to time.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Wed May 16, 2007 7:42 am

Did they tell you exactly what parts failed? Since this also happened to me on a smaller scale, I have somewhat of a vested interest...

--Keys

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:51 am

Keys wrote:Did they tell you exactly what parts failed? Since this also happened to me on a smaller scale, I have somewhat of a vested interest...

--Keys

sounds like its time to see if the blur top end will fit!

JeremyZ · Post by **JeremyZ** » Wed May 16, 2007 11:18 am

To me, this sounds like a design flaw. To have it happen to one person, we could say that maybe he didn't do it right. But to have it happen to two people, one of whom has been working on bikes (and presumably changing oil on them) for years and years...

It sounds like these filters vibrate loose or loosen up due to excessive heat. The dealer probably torques them on sooo bloody tight...

Question for both of you: How tight did you put the oil filter on? Hand tight, as you would on a car, or super tight, with a wrench?

Another thing to consider: Does the Piaggio filter have a gasket or an O-ring? O-rings seal better than gaskets, as there is a further range of compression where a seal is made. Gaskets cannot afford to loosen up as much before the seal is broken.

Were you both using Piaggio filters?

jgalar · Post by **jgalar** » Wed May 16, 2007 12:30 pm

I would tear into the motor to find out what the damage was and what would be needed to fix it. Part it out or repair it.

Do a search on GY6 engines and see if any or all parts would fit. The GY6 is the Honda air cooled engine that the Chinese stole and copied. It is the engine in most all air cooled scooters. I have seen whole engines with transmissions for under $500 on web sights.

BlueMark · Post by **BlueMark** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:37 pm

jgalar wrote:The GY6 is the Honda air cooled engine that the Chinese stole and copied. It is the engine in most all air cooled scooters. I have seen whole engines with transmissions for under $500 on web sights.

The GY6 may have been 'stolen and copied' at the time, but it is legally long out of patent by now.

I don't doubt that PGO could have (legally) based their engines on the GY6, but I wouldn't assume they are part for part compatible. Anyone got the straight dope on this?

-Mark

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Wed May 16, 2007 10:30 pm

Naw. The PGO engine is not related to the GY6

Yes, the Piaggio filter has an "O" ring...so does the HiFlo I use.

As for tight...it was beyond hand tight, but not "strip the threads" tight. And near as I can tell, it is simply the vibration generated by the little single cylinder engine that loosens them. It has happened to 3 people that I'm aware of, but to be honest, I don't believe it's a design flaw. Motorcyclists learned generations ago that motorcycles are NOT appliances. They require your input and nurturing to function. In your hands, they almost become living things. As a result, you gotta mess with 'em from time to time rather than just expect it to be perfect every time. I simply learned to check it a couple times a week. What's the big deal...?

--Keys

jgalar · Post by **jgalar** » Wed May 16, 2007 10:38 pm

A $1600 repair bill is a pretty big deal for me!

With the recommending oil change interval being so low, is an oil filter really necessary.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Wed May 16, 2007 11:36 pm

Yeah, Jgalar, a $1600 repair bill IS a big deal. I couldn't do it. I was just stating that checking it a couple times a week isn't a big deal. I wasn't trying to belittle the problems you had. Sunshinen and I were just lucky...and I'm still not too sure about me! I still have more engine noise than I care for, but on the other hand, I HAVE put on about 2000 miles since my filter backed out. I'm just gonna keep riding it until it poops out.

As for whether or not they need a spin on filter, I couldn't tell you, but I WILL admit I never trusted those little screens most of the small engines have.

--Keys