What's the final verdict on the Prima Pipe?

KidDynomite · Post by **KidDynomite** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:18 pm

On the verge of breaking down and getting one. However, until the cylinder upgrade is available and affordable, I don't believe the Buddy can afford a downgrade in performance--for my needs.

Those of you that have put the Prima--or any other--Pipe into use for a while now.......How's it perform?

San Francisco · Post by **San Francisco** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:35 pm

KidDynomite wrote:On the verge of breaking down and getting one. However, until the cylinder upgrade is available and affordable, I don't believe the Buddy can afford a downgrade in performance--for my needs.

Those of you that have put the Prima--or any other--Pipe into use for a while now.......How's it perform?

I put on the Prima straight from the dealer when I bought the Italia, so
I don't know if it improves performance or not.

Generally, any decrease in the restriction in the pipe [aka baffling] will
show some increase in performance, albeit I suspect it is modest on
these little scooters.

But I can say that for a 125 the Buddy really screams off the line at stoplights.
I am very surprised. IMHO it is just as fast, if not faster, than any of my
150 cc scooters. But that is not due to the pipe, which at best is a
placebo if one thinks the Buddy sounds faster.

Even if the performance is not that much improved, see my post where I
say that the increased noise difference is a safety feature. This is because
people can hear the Prima pipe. In fact, when I am passing vehicles I
make a point of gunning the Buddy so the pipe sounds off. When doing this
I can see people looking in their mirrors, acknowledging my presence.

The pipe dresses up the Buddy nicely. Looks way more "custom"
than the stock pipe.

And I think the sound is much more pleasing to the ears than a stock can.
Paying for better sound is nothing to be ashamed of. Most bike owners
pay $600 to $1500 for cans, NOT for a performance upgrade, riders
simply want better sound. In fact, look at all the ads in cycle magazines.
Few mention better performance [because there is little if any increased
performance on most street bikes]. They market the sound.

So get the pipe.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:21 pm

wow, im now convinced and im looking to pawn something to go get a pipe now.

what are the choices of pipes anyway?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:36 pm

Um. In terms of designed specifically for the Buddy, that is your only choice. You can do what I did, though, and adapt something else. I put a small SuperTrapp muffler on the original pipe. Bolted right up, too. I would imagine you could use any number of small slip-on mufflers that are on the market...

--Keys

merlin · Post by **merlin** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:38 pm

do you have a link to the other cans?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:45 pm

To be honest, I don't. A buddy of mine had the 'Trapp and just gave it to me. It was just serendipity that it fit. You might try scooting down to the local motorcycle bone-yard and seeing what they have. The end-pipe out of the original muffler is the diameter you need to slip over.

--Keys

rajron · Post by **rajron** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:15 pm

One source for the Super Trap:

http://www.heeters.com/ScooterPerformance.shtml

scroll down a little then you will see them

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:05 am

Max at Motorsport mentioned (on MV, I think) that your really need to adjust your roller weights to get performance increases out of a pipe because the benefits occur at certain RPMs. I'm paraphrasing, so possibly off the mark, but will search for the source comment.

JokerJim · Post by **JokerJim** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:07 pm

Hey KidDynomite.

Olive and I could not keep up with you on the ride to Lawrence. Now that she is broken in and the pipe was added I bet it would be a different story.

You can test drive my scoot if you want before making a final decision.

I know some on here would never consider letting another ride their scoot.
If you wreck it, you fix/replace it, no big deal.

Let me know.

Joker

golfingirl · Post by **golfingirl** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:26 pm

I am also considering getting a new pipe for my Buddy 125. For looks and sounds... not performance... my Buddy is plenty fast for me.

Is the Prima pipe the only option? How about the Sito pipe? Could I install it myself?

KidDynomite · Post by **KidDynomite** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:04 pm

Thanks Jim....I mainly wanna hear it. I trust that if you didn't loose any performance I won't either.

Ericcalm.....How do I change roller weights and at what level will I know I'm maximizing my performance?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:23 pm

I'm not aware of a Sito pipe that would work. The Sito's I'm familiar with are designed for two-stroke Vespa-type engines and even if you COULD adapt it, it wouldn't work for a 4-stroke.

--Keys

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:10 am

KidDynomite wrote:Ericcalm.....How do I change roller weights and at what level will I know I'm maximizing my performance?

Roller weights are changed by removing the variator. I don't know the precise process for this on the Buddy, nor do I know the size or weight of the stock rollers—I don't know anyone who's done this mod. Your dealer/mechanic may be able to help you out on this.

I do know that removing the variator can be tricky—for my Vespa, the step by step process appears straightforward but it requires a pretty good knowledge of what's what in the transmission and is aided by special tools.

Here's the original MV post in which Max of Motorsport recommends lighter weights for a pipe. Keep in mind, his recommendation of 9.3g weights is for a Vespa ET4 with a stock variator—the weight will differ for a Buddy.

glhboy · Post by **glhboy** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:22 pm

ericalm wrote:
KidDynomite wrote:Ericcalm.....How do I change roller weights and at what level will I know I'm maximizing my performance?
Roller weights are changed by removing the variator. I don't know the precise process for this on the Buddy, nor do I know the size or weight of the stock rollers—I don't know anyone who's done this mod. Your dealer/mechanic may be able to help you out on this.

I do know that removing the variator can be tricky—for my Vespa, the step by step process appears straightforward but it requires a pretty good knowledge of what's what in the transmission and is aided by special tools.

Here's the original MV post in which Max of Motorsport recommends lighter weights for a pipe. Keep in mind, his recommendation of 9.3g weights is for a Vespa ET4 with a stock variator—the weight will differ for a Buddy.

Stock size rollers for the Buddy 125 are 18 x 14 I believe and come stock with 11.5g rollers. I would recommend a 10g or even 9g with the pipe. Also you will have to rejet the main and idle jet when you add on the Prima Pipe or you are asking for trouble later down the road. I have the pipe and the rollers, jets on order. should be here soon.

Corsair · Post by **Corsair** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:36 pm

How do these mods effect fuel economy and engine wear?

glhboy · Post by **glhboy** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:56 pm

Corsair wrote:How do these mods effect fuel economy and engine wear?

Fuel economy may go down a little, but I wouldn't imagine too much. I know on my Honda Ruckus, it didn't effect it much at all. Of course how you drive it may.

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:09 pm

Corsair wrote:How do these mods effect fuel economy and engine wear?

Changing the rollers may decrease fuel economy because it will allow the engine to rev higher before changing gears.

San Francisco · Post by **San Francisco** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:15 pm

glhboy wrote:Stock size rollers for the Buddy 125 are 18 x 14 I believe and come stock with 11.5g rollers. I would recommend a 10g or even 9g with the pipe. Also you will have to rejet the main and idle jet when you add on the Prima Pipe or you are asking for trouble later down the road. I have the pipe and the rollers, jets on order. should be here soon.

When my dealer put the Prima pipe on my 125 he said that it did not
need to be rejetted. So you are saying it does? If so, what trouble
will occur down the road?

I am taking it in for a 200 mile oil change and I will have them rip out
that pipe if they can't/won't rejet it [since you imply the engine will be
damaged or some other doom] or if the jets are not available for a few weeks.

This is very upsetting. I never do anything that will cause damage to
my bikes or scooters and this is bad news when I thought all was cool.

Can you tell me exactly why the Prima pipe needs a rejet so I can tell
the dealer why such is so. That is better than saying "some guy on
MB said so."

Thanks

golfinguy · Post by **golfinguy** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:52 pm

Does anyone who's changed the roller weights have any advice on what tools (and where to get them) for holding things in place to get the nut off the variator? I want to lighten the weights on my Buddy 50 to spool up a little faster.

Dale.

glhboy · Post by **glhboy** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:14 pm

San Francisco wrote:
glhboy wrote:Stock size rollers for the Buddy 125 are 18 x 14 I believe and come stock with 11.5g rollers. I would recommend a 10g or even 9g with the pipe. Also you will have to rejet the main and idle jet when you add on the Prima Pipe or you are asking for trouble later down the road. I have the pipe and the rollers, jets on order. should be here soon.
When my dealer put the Prima pipe on my 125 he said that it did not
need to be rejetted. So you are saying it does? If so, what trouble
will occur down the road?

I am taking it in for a 200 mile oil change and I will have them rip out
that pipe if they can't/won't rejet it [since you imply the engine will be
damaged or some other doom] or if the jets are not available for a few weeks.

This is very upsetting. I never do anything that will cause damage to
my bikes or scooters and this is bad news when I thought all was cool.

Can you tell me exactly why the Prima pipe needs a rejet so I can tell
the dealer why such is so. That is better than saying "some guy on
MB said so."

Thanks

Jetting is based on your altitude of your location. Here my bike may run a little more rich, so I would maybe go down one jet size, say a 75 to a 72. Every bike I have had, that I put on an aftermarket pipe or filter needed rejetting. I would say that living in CA, you might be running a little Lean, so you may need a larger jet. Do a couple of Spark Plug Chops and see what your plug looks like. That will tell you one way or the other, black too rich, white too lean. Brown just right.

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:16 pm

golfinguy wrote:Does anyone who's changed the roller weights have any advice on what tools (and where to get them) for holding things in place to get the nut off the variator? I want to lighten the weights on my Buddy 50 to spool up a little faster.

Motorsport Scooters and a few other retailers sell special holders for just this task. Problem is, I don't know if they'd fit the Buddy. Even those made for Vespas only fit specific model ranges. You can do it without the tool, but I hear it's a real PITA.

Here's what it looks like:

Has anyone here actually cracked open the transmission and variator on their Buddy yet?

glhboy · Post by **glhboy** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:24 pm

Removing the variator is not hard at all. You can use a simple rag and shove it under the variator belt and have a socket to loosen it. I have never used a tool of any kind.

San Francisco · Post by **San Francisco** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:12 pm

glhboy wrote:Jetting is based on your altitude of your location. Here my bike may run a little more rich, so I would maybe go down one jet size, say a 75 to a 72. Every bike I have had, that I put on an aftermarket pipe or filter needed rejetting. I would say that living in CA, you might be running a little Lean, so you may need a larger jet. Do a couple of Spark Plug Chops and see what your plug looks like. That will tell you one way or the other, black too rich, white too lean. Brown just right.

Thanks for the info. I did not know you were talking about the
altitude/jetting issue. I recall discussion about people in higher altitudes
needing rejetting, but here at sea level, we don't. But I will double check
with the dealer on that.

When he put a POC can on my Chetak a few years back they did a rejet
so they obviously know when it is necessary. I can rest a little easier
now. But I will ask again, just in case.

Again, thanks for the quick response.

sparty · Post by **sparty** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:17 pm

I finally got my pipe from Scooter Works in the mail. For some strange reason...the package came with a pack of green apple candies but no sales recipe... very strange.

Now my question is.. seeeing that there are only a few (three?) bolts and no instructions included, is this something I can installed? looks like I can just take the bolts off the current muffler, put the new one one, and bolt it back. is that it?

eochaid27 · Post by **eochaid27** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:25 am

The Scooter Works page for the pipe states: "Be advised, this will void your warranty! You will want to check your jetting and possibly change your variator weights too." I am also looking at getting the pipe in the next month or two. I purchased a service contract on mine that will cover changes made by the shop so I'm not worried about the warranty but I'll definitely be asking them about the recommended changes.

Link for the page if you want to look:

http://www.scooterworks.com/Performance ... 65C290.cfm

sparty · Post by **sparty** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:54 am

called scooterworks today. they said no modification to the Buddy is necessary, just take off the bolts and then bolt the new pipe on. So, I went home and unpack the pipe .. turned out there are two metal rings/nuts. Where do they go? Do they go with the two bolts on the side or the bolts on the bottom of the scoot?

San Francisco · Post by **San Francisco** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:35 am

FWIW, it takes the local dealer to "rat you out" to Genuine on voiding the
warranty. This is because any warranty claim is made through the
dealer and the dealer sends the bill to Genuine for reimbursement.

When you take in the scooter for repairs, it's at that time that the dealer
determines if the scooter repairs are covered under warranty. With
the reimbursement request to Genuine the dealer reports why the repairs
qualify as warranty work. [I assume you are aware that Genuine does not
send reps out to dealers to personally inspect warranty repair work, etc.].

So if the dealer where you bought the Prima pipe says that he or she will
NOT void the warranty if you buy the pipe, then you are covered.

When I brought up the warranty/Prima pipe issue to my dealer he said he
would NOT void the warranty if I bought the pipe and he installed it.

Actually, I'd question taking my Buddy to a dealer who offers to sell me
a Prima pipe but warns me that he will void the warranty if I have it
installed. Moreover, it's kinda weird if you step back and think about it.
A dealer is selling an add on for the Buddy, but he or she says it will void
the warranty.

You can think of all kinds of examples/analogies where that would be
ridiculous. E.g., "Here's an extended battery for your cell phone, but if
you buy and install it, such will void the warranty." "Here's some
super duper cleaner for your $700 flat panel LCD monitor, but if you use
it, the warranty is void on the monitor."

You get the idea. And note that the distinction being made here is that
the product is being sold by the dealer, not some performance house.

sparty · Post by **sparty** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:25 pm

It's a nice day, so I went and installed the prima pipe today. The process was pretty simple, thought me almost half an hour though, because I just for the love of god could not put pack one of the bolts on the back. In the end, I gave up and left the bolt half-way in... The two rings I mentioned before go in with the two bolts in the back, because of the new pipe being further from the mount than the original one. I am going to take a ride now to see how it goes. It does sound quite different and one thing I wasn't aware of before is the weight different between the two pipes. The original is almost twice the weight!

Update... One thing I noticed is that the pipe now gives out a "pop" sound whenever I let go of the throttle after any amount of substained riding. Is that normal? Did I something wrong?

ICEMAN · Post by **ICEMAN** » Thu May 31, 2007 5:21 am

For those that are rejetting, changing to the prima pipe and changing roller weights be very carfull when doing so, I goofed on my 2005 Kymco zx-50 and had it to lean.......it took no time at all to burn a dime size hole right through the brand new 70cc Malossi Piston and now my motor is trashed..or needs lots of attention anyway........

Make sure you are checking the spark plug.......if its black its to rich.....Brown is perfect...............white is LEAN and will end up burning a hole right through your piston.........its way to HOT..........

Excellent advice here to double check with your dealer and clarify what they will or will not do in regards to the warranty if you put a performance pipe on and rejet etc...

schroncc · Post by **schroncc** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:09 pm

I am also planning on installing the prima pipe on my buddy. My question is, how does one go about re-jetting their scooter? What should I do if my scooter is running to lean or to rich?

paige · Post by **paige** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:11 pm

Had the pipe installed on Saturday. Sounds great. I don't know that there was any rejetting done. Brat? How about you?

Marnor · Post by **Marnor** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:18 pm

Hey there...I had similar questions about the Prima Pipe for the 50cc. Does anyone have any experience with it? Anybody adjusted the roller weights in this model?

lou76 · Post by **lou76** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:58 pm

sparty wrote:I finally got my pipe from Scooter Works in the mail. For some strange reason...the package came with a pack of green apple candies but no sales recipe... very strange.

that is freakin hilarious...

brat · Post by **brat** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:11 pm

I had SFSC install it. And Barry never said anything about rejetting it. So I don't believe I have had this done.

BTW Paige...it si about freakin time!!

Modern Buddy

What's the final verdict on the Prima Pipe?

What's the final verdict on the Prima Pipe?

Re: What's the final verdict on the Prima Pipe?