Dr. P Variator buzzing

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:20 pm

So I went ahead and did a new belt, slider weights, and the Dr. P variator.

First of all, shoutout to Mike at NW Buggy parts. The stuff got here way quicker thank I thought, and he was great on the phone with me.

I was pretty careful to get the weights oriented the right way. The scoot feels good with acceleration and deceleration being much smother. The old rollers definitely had some flat spots, and an awful lot of dirt.

Guess my big question is I am hearing a very definite buzz at higher RPMs, (around 1/2 to 3/4 throttle). It also just sounds a lot weirder at times, kind of like something rubbing or otherwise rattling in there. Not consistent except at those higher RPMs.

Any ideas? Do I need to open it back up again and check the orientation of the weights?

Also, what do people use to clean all the black stuff out of there? I am going to have to open it up again, since the gasket lost a couple of pieces too...

I have a poor video of it hear, but you maybe can hear part of the rattle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry4qVFPsC68

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:11 am

You should take some photos in the day time tomorrow of how you installed it. Maybe something in plain sight may be the answer. A video in the day time of it running too may help.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:11 am

Well, if it was as dark as your video when you installed your variator, you may have assembled something wrong.

Just in case, did you happen to look at the variator install instructions for the Blur (same as Buddy) in the Technical Library threads?

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:45 am

jfrost2 wrote:You should take some photos in the day time tomorrow of how you installed it. Maybe something in plain sight may be the answer. A video in the day time of it running too may help.

Video with the cover off? Can you tell from that!

If the weight is in wrong, would I not be getting a continuous rattle? (My newest thought).

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:47 am

babblefish wrote:Well, if it was as dark as your video when you installed your varitor, you may have assembled something wrong. Just in case, did you happen to look at the variator install instructions for the Blur (same as Buddy) in the Technical Library threads?

LOL.

No I did it all in the day light and I did refer to the Blur instructions, thanks!

Maybe I should invest in night vision goggles!

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:55 am

babblefish wrote:Well, if it was as dark as your video when you installed your varitor, you may have assembled something wrong. Just in case, did you happen to look at the variator install instructions for the Blur (same as Buddy) in the Technical Library threads?

Hmm, just went back and looked again, and realized you were the author!!!! Thanks a lot, I would not have even tried this without that!

2 thoughts, I did not really see the splines you were are referring to on the washer; might that have caused these symptoms?

Also, i could not get the nut to go back on as far as you show in your pic, just assumed that it was due to buddy vs blur thing. I will take a look at those the next time i get some daylight to work on it...

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:05 am

Ed Hit wrote:
babblefish wrote:Well, if it was as dark as your video when you installed your varitor, you may have assembled something wrong. Just in case, did you happen to look at the variator install instructions for the Blur (same as Buddy) in the Technical Library threads?
Hmm, just went back and looked again, and realized you were the author!!!! Thanks a lot, I would not have even tried this without that!

2 thoughts, I did not really see the splines you were are referring to on the washer; might that have caused these symptoms?

Also, i could not get the nut to go back on as far as you show in your pic, just assumed that it was due to buddy vs blur thing. I will take a look at those the next time i get some daylight to work on it...

The Blur and Buddy both have the exact same transmission which means they both have the splines. If your nut doesn't look like mine (I just know someone is going say something about this...), then your variator plate is probably not tight and is rattling around on your shaft (OK, go ahead, let's hear all the jokes...). You have to go back in there and fix this because the variator may come apart while you're riding.

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:21 am

babblefish wrote:
Ed Hit wrote:
babblefish wrote:Well, if it was as dark as your video when you installed your varitor, you may have assembled something wrong. Just in case, did you happen to look at the variator install instructions for the Blur (same as Buddy) in the Technical Library threads?
Hmm, just went back and looked again, and realized you were the author!!!! Thanks a lot, I would not have even tried this without that!

2 thoughts, I did not really see the splines you were are referring to on the washer; might that have caused these symptoms?

Also, i could not get the nut to go back on as far as you show in your pic, just assumed that it was due to buddy vs blur thing. I will take a look at those the next time i get some daylight to work on it...
The Blur and Buddy both have the exact same transmission which means they both have the splines. If your nut doesn't look like mine (I just know someone is going say something about this...), then your variator plate is probably not tight and is rattling around on your shaft (OK, go ahead, let's hear all the jokes...). You have to go back in there and fix this because the variator may come apart while you're riding.

No jokes from me! My backup software occasionally says it is "reticulating splines":roll: . No idea what that means, but I will definitely try taking off the variator nut and seeing where we go from there... Thanks again, and I will update. Ed

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:00 am

If you do take it all apart again, have you or someone else take photos of how you're putting it together.

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:05 am

OK, so I think the splines was the issue. Thanks so much Babblefish. definitely owe you a cold one if you are ever in Chicago, (As I do Jfrost, Kaos and many MB Members!).

I took the variator nut back off. My new problem is I really could not get the variator fan back off. I suspect that when I put the nut looking big piece with the splines on, and did not line it up, that I probably lost or messed up some of the teeth.

I rotated it by hand until it seemed to grab, and tightened it in there. Then I impacted it again, and the nut went on further than it did before.

So the good news is, I took it around my parking lot (and while I can only get to full throttle for about 2 seconds, i took it up there a bunch of times, and no rattling what so ever.

Do you think I am any risk of issues here? I could not take a detailed enough picture to show, but I think the teeth are a little messed up, and again, I could not really get the variator fan off...

I can't actually see on any of the parts figures; what part are those teeth actually on?

Appreciate any input on that. Ed

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:03 am

Your crankshaft will have splines on it. The outer variator plate and the washer that goes between the variator plate and the nut will have mirror image splines on them to match those on the crankshaft (see photos in my tech article). If you managed to force the washer on with the splines NOT in alignment with the crankshaft splines, then chances are that's what is preventing you from removing the outer variator plate. You'll have to pry it off somehow with a couple of stout screwdrivers or pry bars and then replace the washer with a new one from Genuine (a generic GY6 part may work, but I'm not 100% sure). Hopefully, the splnes on your crankshaft are ok. It's highly doubtful that the splines on your variator plate are damaged because it would be just about impossible to install it with the splines out of alignment - but then again, some people can break a crowbar in a sandbox...

BTW: In case you didn't know, that washer has protrusions sticking outward that looks like, for lack of a better term, the top of a Rook from a chess set and is used to engage your kickstarter hence the splines to make sure it doesn't slip on the crankshaft when kickstarting. If the splines are really messed up, your kickstarter may not work correctly.

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:27 pm

So the outer variator nut, the washer and the larger Nut looking thing that looks like the top of a rook all come off easily. What I cannot get off smoothly was the variator fan, and the splines that look a little messed up are right there stopping it. I am sure I can get it off, just was disinclined to try to force it.

Is that actually the crankshaft where the the splines are a little messed up?

The kick start still works fine but actually does not require as much of a kick, much smoother all around, but starts up fine.

I am more or less thinking it is ride able as long as I am not hearing any rattling or buzzing?

bpnwmike · Post by **bpnwmike** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:29 pm

It seems like you should be fine - until you need to change your belt again, and then you'll have to get that plate off at that point.

Otherwise think of it as extra security that the variator won't fall apart on ya!

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:15 am

Ed Hit wrote:So the outer variator nut, the washer and the larger Nut looking thing that looks like the top of a rook all come off easily. What I cannot get off smoothly was the variator fan, and the splines that look a little messed up are right there stopping it. I am sure I can get it off, just was disinclined to try to force it.

Is that actually the crankshaft where the the splines are a little messed up?

The kick start still works fine but actually does not require as much of a kick, much smoother all around, but starts up fine.

I am more or less thinking it is ride able as long as I am not hearing any rattling or buzzing?

I'd say get a pulley puller and get it off ASAP. The last time I saw this happen, the owner rode it till needing to replace the belt, and had to replace the crank at the same time, because he'd worn off the splines.

It MIGHT be ok, but you got that way because the variator plate wasn't on all the way. Its likely STILL not on all the way, and could break loose and do more damage.

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:22 am

Kaos wrote:
Ed Hit wrote:So the outer variator nut, the washer and the larger Nut looking thing that looks like the top of a rook all come off easily. What I cannot get off smoothly was the variator fan, and the splines that look a little messed up are right there stopping it. I am sure I can get it off, just was disinclined to try to force it.

Is that actually the crankshaft where the the splines are a little messed up?

The kick start still works fine but actually does not require as much of a kick, much smoother all around, but starts up fine.

I am more or less thinking it is ride able as long as I am not hearing any rattling or buzzing?

I'd say get a pulley puller and get it off ASAP. The last time I saw this happen, the owner rode it till needing to replace the belt, and had to replace the crank at the same time, because he'd worn off the splines.

It MIGHT be ok, but you got that way because the variator plate wasn't on all the way. Its likely STILL not on all the way, and could break loose and do more damage.

Okaay... So by pulley puller you mean something to get off the variator fan piece? I am pretty sure I can get it off. Is that the piece that woudl need to be replaced? Or is pulley puller an actual tool of some kind?

Can you tell me what piece is the variator plate? is that the rook looking piece? Maybe this weekend, I will pull it all apart and post pics?

Thanks a lot, Ed

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:24 am

Ed Hit wrote:
Kaos wrote:
Ed Hit wrote:So the outer variator nut, the washer and the larger Nut looking thing that looks like the top of a rook all come off easily. What I cannot get off smoothly was the variator fan, and the splines that look a little messed up are right there stopping it. I am sure I can get it off, just was disinclined to try to force it.

Is that actually the crankshaft where the the splines are a little messed up?

The kick start still works fine but actually does not require as much of a kick, much smoother all around, but starts up fine.

I am more or less thinking it is ride able as long as I am not hearing any rattling or buzzing?

I'd say get a pulley puller and get it off ASAP. The last time I saw this happen, the owner rode it till needing to replace the belt, and had to replace the crank at the same time, because he'd worn off the splines.

It MIGHT be ok, but you got that way because the variator plate wasn't on all the way. Its likely STILL not on all the way, and could break loose and do more damage.
Okaay... So by pulley puller you mean something to get off the variator fan piece? I am pretty sure I can get it off. Is that the piece that woudl need to be replaced? Or is pulley puller an actual tool of some kind?

Can you tell me what piece is the variator plate? is that the rook looking piece? Maybe this weekend, I will pull it all apart and post pics?

Thanks a lot, Ed

Yes, something to get the fan off, thats what I mean by variator plate. A pulley puller is a tool that'll get it off no matter how stuck it is.

The fan likely doesn't need replaced, though it might take some work with a file to clean up the teeth. You won't know till you get it back off how bad it is. Good luck!

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:57 am

Thanks a lot Kaos.

So it is the fan piece that has the teeth that the rook looking piece fits into? That makes sense to me. I will have a look this weekend, and I really appreciate the input.

I should add that I did ride today, took it very easy all the way in, and opened it up a little on the way home. It felt and sounded fine, but I agree I should just take it apart and have a look.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:22 am

Ed Hit wrote:Thanks a lot Kaos.

So it is the fan piece that has the teeth that the rook looking piece fits into? That makes sense to me. I will have a look this weekend, and I really appreciate the input.

I should add that I did ride today, took it very easy all the way in, and opened it up a little on the way home. It felt and sounded fine, but I agree I should just take it apart and have a look.

Yeah, more than likely you're just fine. But I'd hate for you to NOT be, and have to replace your crank at a much higher cost.

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:05 am

Hokay. So I got the variator fan off with a fair amount of effort.

I wound up gashing the inside part (of the variator fan; side that hits the belt) in a few spots (hammer and pulley puller), think I am OK with just using some emery cloth and steel wool to polish that up? Should I go so far as to metal polish it, or will that just mess up the friction that it needs for the belt? Should I just get it more or less smooth to the touch, and just take off the very small pointy parts that are on now?

I think it will be ok once I use my rat tail triangular file to clean up the teeth a little, (crank shaft and variator fan), but if it is a little loose on those teeth, should I try some loc tite?

I will try to post some pics later, but unfortunately I may not be able to do much work on this again for a few days, had some other issues come up. Hopefully others will learn from my misfortune, (to follow directions that is!)

And snow season is coming

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:40 pm

Ed Hit wrote:Hokay. So I got the variator fan off with a fair amount of effort.

I wound up gashing the inside part (of the variator fan; side that hits the belt) in a few spots (hammer and pulley puller), think I am OK with just using some emery cloth and steel wool to polish that up? Should I go so far as to metal polish it, or will that just mess up the friction that it needs for the belt? Should I just get it more or less smooth to the touch, and just take off the very small pointy parts that are on now?

I think it will be ok once I use my rat tail triangular file to clean up the teeth a little, (crank shaft and variator fan), but if it is a little loose on those teeth, should I try some loc tite?

I will try to post some pics later, but unfortunately I may not be able to do much work on this again for a few days, had some other issues come up. Hopefully others will learn from my misfortune, (to follow directions that is!)

And snow season is coming

Pictures would help. It'd depend on how badly you scored the pulley face if you even need to bother with cleaning it up.

I don't think a LITTLE loose will matter, more than a little, and you might end up in the same situation. Its a very soft metal after all.

Good luck!

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:39 am

Pics...

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:00 pm

The variator is shot. Further use could cause more damage to your crankshaft.

Speaking of the crank, it's hard to tell from the one pic, but are the ridges filed down to match the flat spots on the variator? Take a few more using the "Macro" mode on your camera. It might be salvageable. I wouldn't try riding it until you're positive the crank is good. Aside from the teeth being milled down, running it off balance under load could have caused the crank to bend, which could be part of the "buzz" you were feeling.

I would seek the advice of your shop on this one, diagnosing via the internet with pics isn't going to get you the full story.

Keep us posted and good luck.

Also (and this one boggled me for a while, I couldn't figure out what you meant by "rook" because my head was stuck on cards and not chess) that piece you're referring to is the kick start gear, or at least what the kick start mechanism extends to engage the crankshaft.

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:18 pm

Ugh. That is worse than I was hoping.

If the cranskshaft is bent, would that not be obvious by sight? I have not filed it at all yet; just the pics. If I look at it dead on, it seems to be straight. I am pretty sure the damage is from the impact wrench pushing the variator on, and I even suspect some of it may be material from the variator fan.

If I put the stock variator back on, and all sounds and looks good, do you think I am OK? (with the Dr. P weights, the old ones are flattened.)

I am stuck with a week of snow forecast for now anyway, so I will being going pretty slow on this.

Assuming my crank is OK, and I need a new variator fan, anyone have a source for that? Buggyparts NW does not have just that piece.

Thanks LMC, Ed

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:34 pm

The only way to truly tell if the crank is bent is with some precision measuring instruments. That being said, if that damage is all from the impact, then the crank *might* be OK. There's still the concern that the splines are too far worn down to firmly grip the variator.

IF, the splines grip the stock variator, and you get a good seat on the retaining nut, there's a chance you might be in the clear. The Dr Pulley Sliders will work great with just the stock variator. You'll be able to tell quickly if the crank is bent because it'll shake like all hell when you run the engine (once you have the variator on, without the variator, there's nothing for it to spin out of balance except the shaft itself.

When reassembling it, use Blue Locktight and make sure everything is aligned before tightening. Finger tighten the retainer nut before touching it with anything powered so that you can be certain nothing has slipped out of place.

If it works out, you'll still probably be happy with the performance of the sliders and the stock Variator. That's what I've been running for a while now and I prefer that to the aftermarket variators. The expensive variators are more for the cheaper scoots where quality is hit or miss.

Good luck!

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:44 am

Well, so far so good. I have been really tied up with other life events, so could not get back to this, (and it has been snowing here anyway, so have not missed it too much.)

But I filed out the crankshaft splines until I could work the stock variator back on. I hand tightened everything and the nut is on as far as Babblefish shows in his pic.

It sounds fine, and when I rev the engine, it all sounds good. I cannot ride it with ice in the driveway, but powerwalking it on the deck felt OK. NO untoward vibration that I can tell.

I did notice that the Dr. P variator (when I had it on there) did sound smoother, and actually maybe whinier if that makes sense.

Autotech guy on EBay said he might be able to get me just a variator fan for Dr. P, so perhaps I will try again next year!

I will update again when I can take it out for a real ride.

Thanks again for all the help. Ed

Next step, Prima pipe! (will try directions a little better this time

)

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:21 pm

One more update.

I took it out for a ride last night.

Spent a while on back streets close to home, just toodling around at about 20 MPH. Then progressed up to faster roads and just a bit of WOT on a highway.

It is a lot colder at this point, and I had thought before this whole event that I needed to up my idle a bit. It died once while I was warming up and once while I was heading down the street at slow speeds.

I mention that in case it did have anything to do with the variator etc? to recap, I am on the stock variator with a new belt and Dr. P weights.

But I imagine the idle is just the idle.

But no vibration, no particular concerns that I can tell. Thanks again for all the help.

One more FYI, autotech355 (on ebay sells Dr P stuff from Taiwan) says he can get me a new variator fan for $35 plus shipping. So I will probably do that in the spring, at the very least to have a complete Dr. P set.

Moral of the story, I think I will try to do less at a time next time. (I remember getting off the variator and so on, and realizing I had never talked or researched putting on a new belt. That distracted me from getting the variator back together with attention to detail.) But a good learning experience, and hopefully I am all good.

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:37 pm

$35 isn't a bad price to pay for a learning experience. I'd go ahead, since you're pretty much already in for the variator, you might as well have a complete working one, hehe.

As for the idle, turning it up a little is what most people do in colder weather. The technicalities have been discussed about weather it needs to have the A/F ratio etc adjusted, but in the end it's always just accepted that turning the idle up is the most sensible solution. There's a guide for it in the Tech library, it takes a phillips screw driver and about 3 minutes.

Ed Hit · Post by **Ed Hit** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:48 pm

Yes, unfortunately, I have had more expensive learning experiences, so I do not count this one as too bad.

I have seen the Idle adjustment and will do that, but am just checking to make sure that it is not related to the variator. I think not...

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:52 pm

Not at all. Adjust away and enjoy not having to restart, hehe.