Modern Buddy

I know I know, this forum is about Buddys but this is Very Cool Indeed:

http://news.com.com/2300-11389_3-6184309-1.html

"The Maxi-Scooter from Vectrix, an all-electric scooter that can go from 0 to 50 miles per hour in 6.8 seconds, will soon be available in the U.S., Jeff Morrill, director of marketing for the Americas for the company, said at the Clean Energy Venture Summit taking place here this week.

Like electric car companies such as Tesla Motors, Vectrix is attempting to show that electric vehicles are a practical option for getting around town and that they can compete on many fronts with traditional gas burners. The $11,000 scooter, which runs on nickel metal hydride batteries, can hit 62 miles per hour, go from 0 to 30 miles per hour in 3.5 seconds, and can be recharged in 2.5 hours from a standard outlet. (Eighty percent of the battery can be recharged in two hours.)

It will go about 68 miles at 25 mph before needing a recharge, Morrill said. And, like other scooters and motorcycles, you can store helmets and other items in an empty space below the seat. The bike is powered by a hub motor on the rear wheel."

Seems cool, but the price is a bit steep for a scooter, and the style is not really anything I would like. I like vintage stlyling like the Stella or retro-modern like the buddy. An all electric buddy or stella for under $3000.00 would be something that interests me. Even a hybrid scooter. But I figure you are already doing pretty well in terms of emissions on a scooter anyway. Cool that someone has come up with a zero emissions scooter though, probably the way of the future no doubt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEk2J85PXNg - wow - that is cool

It weighs twice as much as the Buddy 125.
Batteries have such an awful energy storage to weight ratio.

The biggest design constraint on vehicles is that they have to carry their energy source with them (electric trains and streetcars excepted).

Where's my diesel hybrid scooter already?

I agree the price is a bit steep but the fact that they are moving the technology toward electric is awesome!

Remember when calculators first came on the market at a price tag in the hundreds? (Maybe you're too young... ) Sure it will be a while for the price to become more reasonable, but by then I will have worn my little gas-powered Bud out or become 'vintage', and hopefully there will be an affordable electric waiting to take its place. Woo hoo!!

I heard Piaggio was working on a hybrid.

Looks a lot like the Honda Reflex. I like it.

Batteries are only heavy if they're the affordable ones. (lead acid) I use Lithium Polymer batteries in my RC planes, and they are amazingly light for their energy density. Like lithium ion, but even lighter.

But if it is $11k now, with lead acid or nickel batteries, it would be $30k with lithium polymer.

I wonder how much it costs to charge the thing, or what the projected battery lift and battery replacement costs are?

not my kind of styling either, but w00t for electric/hybrids!

I want one!

Something I wonder with Electric cars/scooters is where the electricity to charge the battery is coming from. Doesn't it usually come from a dirty, polluting power plant? And how does it effect your electric bill?

codemonkey wrote:Something I wonder with Electric cars/scooters is where the electricity to charge the battery is coming from. Doesn't it usually come from a dirty, polluting power plant? And how does it effect your electric bill?

Sure it affects your power bill, but it's a cheaper source of power than gasoline.
How your electricity is produced depends on where you live, but most of it in the US comes from coal. This sounds bad, but the coal plants are getting cleaner and more efficient all the time, and we don't have to rely on other countries to get coal. You will always be able to produce cleaner energy at a stationary plant than on a moving vehicle because of design constraints.
All the buzz around hydrogen is that it has the potential to store the energy from a power plant in a smaller and lighter way than electric batteries can, and the vehicle can be "refilled" in seconds rather than hours like a battery.

sunshinen wrote:I heard Piaggio was working on a hybrid.

They have built a couple "concept" hybrid versions of the Vespa LX 50 and Piaggio X8 125 and have been testing them in Italy.

http://www.retrothing.com/2006/04/introducing_two.html

Photo gallery of the LX:
http://2strokebuzz.vh.retro.coudal.com/ ... temId=1813

Oh nice: they're not just hybrids, but plug-in hybrids.

davel wrote:All the buzz around hydrogen is that it has the potential to store the energy from a power plant in a smaller and lighter way than electric batteries can, and the vehicle can be "refilled" in seconds rather than hours like a battery.

We'll have hydrogen fuel cell motorcycles and scooters in the next few years, too. Some of the big companies (Honda) have shown prototypes or have publicized their work. The first production fuel cell bike may be the ENV.

It's here.....the first one in CA is in San Diego!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UavzO53aImY

The Piaggio hybrids will be out next year. I think the MP3 hybrid is first, hen maybe the kickin' new Vespa S or LX. A MP3 hybrid strikes me as an awesome idea—lots of appeal to commuters who would not have looked at scooters before—but it's underpowered. The LX or S should be great, though!

ENERGY IS NOT FREE, its a simple law of energy conservation, and converting the energy from combustable to electric wastes more energy and causes more greenhouse gass then just sticking to a small energy efficient gas motor.

not to mention all the energy and chemicals put into creating that type of battery and the impact that will have when it is eventually put back in the earth. trust me people when i say that in terms of energy conservation and greenhouse gass emitions, there is no difference between that electric scooter and a scooter of similar size with an internal combustion engine. The only difference is that it is the electric power plant is creating the extra emissions needed to charge the scooter, so you can walk around feeling good about yourself when actually you did nothing to positively effect the environment. The best way you can make an impact with our current technology is to just keep riding what your riding (small efficient motors).

just something to think about

poop colored buddy wrote:ENERGY IS NOT FREE, its a simple law of energy conservation, and converting the energy from combustable to electric wastes more energy and causes more greenhouse gass then just sticking to a small energy efficient gas motor.

not to mention all the energy and chemicals put into creating that type of battery and the impact that will have when it is eventually put back in the earth. trust me people when i say that in terms of energy conservation and greenhouse gass emitions, there is no difference between that electric scooter and a scooter of similar size with an internal combustion engine. The only difference is that it is the electric power plant is creating the extra emissions needed to charge the scooter, so you can walk around feeling good about yourself when actually you did nothing to positively effect the environment. The best way you can make an impact with our current technology is to just keep riding what your riding (small efficient motors).

OK, I admit that I am just a lurker with a major case of scooter lust, but I had to register just to reply to your post. Firstly, you assume that the source of electricty is something (coal? oil?) being burned. I know that where I live there is an electricy company that allows you to choose ALL wind power. Obviously someone could also set up a solar panel or generate their own power in green, creative ways.
Secondly, yes, some batteries are filled with nastiness. Most of it can be recycled. Some new lithium battery technologies aren't very nasty at all. I contend that the energy to make a battery is less than the energy to refine/transport the gas that you are going to burn.
All the rest of your post's points about efficiency are based on the assumption that someone is burning coal somewhere to make electricy. Therefore I do not trust your assertion that gas scooter impact = electric scooter impact. The real answer is "it depends". Oh and the best thing that you can do at our current level of technology is to get on a bicycle.

sosoyoyo wrote:

poop colored buddy wrote:ENERGY IS NOT FREE, its a simple law of energy conservation, and converting the energy from combustable to electric wastes more energy and causes more greenhouse gass then just sticking to a small energy efficient gas motor.

not to mention all the energy and chemicals put into creating that type of battery and the impact that will have when it is eventually put back in the earth. trust me people when i say that in terms of energy conservation and greenhouse gass emitions, there is no difference between that electric scooter and a scooter of similar size with an internal combustion engine. The only difference is that it is the electric power plant is creating the extra emissions needed to charge the scooter, so you can walk around feeling good about yourself when actually you did nothing to positively effect the environment. The best way you can make an impact with our current technology is to just keep riding what your riding (small efficient motors).

OK, I admit that I am just a lurker with a major case of scooter lust, but I had to register just to reply to your post. Firstly, you assume that the source of electricty is something (coal? oil?) being burned. I know that where I live there is an electricy company that allows you to choose ALL wind power. Obviously someone could also set up a solar panel or generate their own power in green, creative ways.
Secondly, yes, some batteries are filled with nastiness. Most of it can be recycled. Some new lithium battery technologies aren't very nasty at all. I contend that the energy to make a battery is less than the energy to refine/transport the gas that you are going to burn.
All the rest of your post's points about efficiency are based on the assumption that someone is burning coal somewhere to make electricy. Therefore I do not trust your assertion that gas scooter impact = electric scooter impact. The real answer is "it depends". Oh and the best thing that you can do at our current level of technology is to get on a bicycle.

educate yourself:
the United States consumed 22.6 quadrillion Btu of energy from coal, accounting for 94 percent of total coal consumption in North America and 48 percent of the OECD total. U.S. coal consumption rises to 34.1 quadrillion Btu in 2030 in the reference case. The United States has substantial coal reserves and has come to rely heavily on coal for electricity generation (http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/coal.html)

It isnt up for debate....it is the LAW of the CONSERVATION OF ENERGY, basic physics.

bottom line, the U.S. uses coal as its main form of energy production for electricity. It isn't up for debate. Coal is the dirtiest form of fuel and creates the largest amount of CO2, not to mention dirt and soot in the stratosphere.

"coal will continue to be the dominant fuel used for electric power production. The low cost and abundance of coal is one of the primary reasons why consumers in the United States benefit from some of the lowest electricity rates of any free-market economy." (http://www.energy.gov/energysources/electricpower.htm)


Last, wind power that you buy is SUBSIDIZED not actual wind power, unless you live somewhere really close to wind plants or solar fields, you are recieving coal burned, hydro or nuclear power, and beleive it, we rely on mostly coal.

Im not trying to argue, but these are facts and I study them everyday. I wish there was a clean way to have electricity in the U.S. but there isnt, not yet at least. So unless your scooter itself is powered by solar power, you in fact are with out a shadow of a doubt contributing to more pollution then a small efficient gas powered motor.

Im not trying to sound rude but arguing against this is foolish and ignorant. the sooner we all realize this the sooner we can find an ACTUAL energy source that is clean and cheap.

davel wrote:It weighs twice as much as the Buddy 125.
Batteries have such an awful energy storage to weight ratio.

Good point. Batteries are one thing, but did you know that there are a bunch of companies out there working on high-tech capacitors? Capacitors have two big advantages over batteries: 1) Lighter 2) They only take a few minutes to charge. Different designs of ultracapitors have been shown in the past, but they always suffered from one problem or another that made them impractical. Supposedly, there is a company now showing around an ultracap that does not have the problems we've seen in the past (e.g. dielectric which crumbles under vibration). If they really have a viable product, an ultracap-powered Buddy-class electric scooter is a real possibility.

As with most things there is no easy solution. Hydrogen burns clean but takes a lot of energy to extract from water, burning, coal produces CO2 no matter how "clean" , lithium can be recycled, but first you need to do a lot of mining to obtain the raw product. solar is great if you have acres and acres of unused land...and not too many cloudy days, wind is wonderful excepth for the migratory birds that get chopped up by them and the "eyesore" factor. four strokes don't burn oil like a two stroke...but waste oil has a habit of finding its way into the groundwater. The good news? People are talking about it and coming up with some great ideas!

poop colored buddy wrote:
educate yourself:
the United States consumed 22.6 quadrillion Btu of energy from coal, accounting for 94 percent of total coal consumption in North America and 48 percent of the OECD total. U.S. coal consumption rises to 34.1 quadrillion Btu in 2030 in the reference case. The United States has substantial coal reserves and has come to rely heavily on coal for electricity generation (http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/coal.html)

It isnt up for debate....it is the LAW of the CONSERVATION OF ENERGY, basic physics.

bottom line, the U.S. uses coal as its main form of energy production for electricity. It isn't up for debate. Coal is the dirtiest form of fuel and creates the largest amount of CO2, not to mention dirt and soot in the stratosphere.

"coal will continue to be the dominant fuel used for electric power production. The low cost and abundance of coal is one of the primary reasons why consumers in the United States benefit from some of the lowest electricity rates of any free-market economy." (http://www.energy.gov/energysources/electricpower.htm)


Last, wind power that you buy is SUBSIDIZED not actual wind power, unless you live somewhere really close to wind plants or solar fields, you are recieving coal burned, hydro or nuclear power, and beleive it, we rely on mostly coal.

Im not trying to argue, but these are facts and I study them everyday. I wish there was a clean way to have electricity in the U.S. but there isnt, not yet at least. So unless your scooter itself is powered by solar power, you in fact are with out a shadow of a doubt contributing to more pollution then a small efficient gas powered motor.

Im not trying to sound rude but arguing against this is foolish and ignorant. the sooner we all realize this the sooner we can find an ACTUAL energy source that is clean and cheap.

Hey, brother, I am right there with you on the grid and the law of conservation. I just thought that you left out an important caveat in your analysis of the environmental impact of electic power. Charging batteries off the grid equals pollution- I totally get it. I was just trying to point out that not all electricity comes off the grid and that there are options there. Arguing about the relative efficiency of scooters is kind of pointless. Your neighbor who leaves their porch light on 24/7 probably pollutes more than an electric scooter and a 90 mpg scooter is probably the most efficient, reasonable transportation on the road. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to call ELF and tell them to stop trashing Hummers and start shooting out streetlights.

PS You seem like you have some kind of idea about what would make for a clean grid, care to share? What is it- hydrogen? nuclear? some combo thing?

The one thing that would scare me about an electric scooter is people seem to already have a problem seeing scooters and then with an electric one they wouldnt hear you either .... seems like a crash waiting to happen ...

You guys are bringing up some interesting points. I'd just remind everyone to keep the tone respectful and refrain from criticizing others' opinions or becoming argumentative.

poop, I must admit that though I know the principles behind your points, my fervor for new tech and gadgetry sometimes overcomes this knowledge. At the same time, I'm still enthusiastic about a lot of these developments.

I think that it's still important to encourage the development and adoption of new energy sources and technologies. This is partly to help change cultural mindsets about the "need" for dependence on fossil fuels. It's also for economic reasons: to create more demand for these alternatives; to demonstrate to manufacturers of cars, motorcycles, scooters, lawnmowers—whatever—that such a market exists; and to enable further research and development.

Buddy_wannabe wrote:The one thing that would scare me about an electric scooter is people seem to already have a problem seeing scooters and then with an electric one they wouldnt hear you either .... seems like a crash waiting to happen ...

I was actually thinking about this while riding today. Yeah, scary. Maybe someone will invent a fake exhaust that just makes noise.

What happens if you crash a battery loaded vehicel? Havent there been some issues with hybred cars ?

Buddy_wannabe wrote:What happens if you crash a battery loaded vehicel? Havent there been some issues with hybred cars ?

Most of the batteries are sealed and stored in a fairly secure place. I mean, it's not like driving around sitting on top of a take of some highly combustible liquid...!
Anecdotally, yesterday I saw the aftermath of a collision between a Toyota station wagon and a Prius. The station wagon had caught fire and was toast. Prius unscathed. I'm sure this had little to do with it being a hybrid and much more to do with how the Toyota had rammed it. Still made for an interesting sight.

Buddy_wannabe wrote:What happens if you crash a battery loaded vehicel? Havent there been some issues with hybred cars ?

The electricity itself is probably way more dangerous. Even the smallest electric scoter is toting around potentially lethal voltages. The problem with cars is that they may try to cut you out in an accident and could cut through the cables going to the motor. In hybrids, they actually clad the wires in an orange plastic thing as a "don't cut me!" warning.

I think the idea thats cool behind electric vehicles isnt so much what they do now to save the environment, but what they have the future potential to do. The idea is that we can support these ventures through buying the products, and hopefully down the road the technology will advance enough to compensate.

Sosoyoyo, as far as some kind of idea? i have to be honest that i am totally stumped for clean energy ideas for the future. The big problem is that there are just way too many people on the planet, and we rely too much on electricity and fossil fuels (shoot, me included!) Nuclear lasts a while and is clean, until the material becomes too weak to use as fuel (but deadly as hell still!) and needs to be burried somewhere.

lets invent something.