Oil filter torque

ScooterLou · Post by **ScooterLou** » Tue May 10, 2011 4:26 am

I'm getting ready to do my first oil change. The only torque wrenches at a reasonable price start at 10ftlbs. The owners manual of the buddy 150 states that the recommended torque for the oil filter is 8Nm. At it's lowest setting a 10ftlb torque wrench equals 13.5Nm. Will It be all right to use this value?
Lou

ScooterLou · Post by **ScooterLou** » Tue May 10, 2011 6:34 am

My bad ,just saw the genuine 1st service video which recommends 12 ftlbs. Still doesn't explain why the manual states 8Nm though.
Lou

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue May 10, 2011 3:27 pm

It's possible you are overthinking this. I just put the filter on snug and check it again after the first short ride. I think the bigger risk with the oil filter is the possibility that the previous gasket remains stuck to the face of the casting. It is hard to visually inspect the attachment area so that could happen if you don't check the old filter carefully. If that occurs, the new filter only goes on the threads a turn or two and can't be snugged down. Under those circumstances the filter can easily come loose, fall off, and no more oil

.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue May 10, 2011 5:07 pm

Torque it! There have been numerous instances of hand-tightened oil filters spinning off and destroying engines in a flash. Even dealers have done it. 12ft. lbs. and you're good to go!

gearhead · Post by **gearhead** » Tue May 10, 2011 5:32 pm

i use a stubby hand ratchet with a 21mm socket on the end of it and tighten it as much as possible with one hand on the stubby ratchet handle. At least it is tight but not over torqued since you dont have the leverage with a longer handled ratchet.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Tue May 10, 2011 6:17 pm

Yeah, I took pause a bit watching the Genuine first-service video and watching the guy tighten up both the drain bolt and the oil filter with just a ratchet, saying that you should really do this to 12 ft-lbs. Now granted, if I were doing it all-day-every-day, I'd have a pretty good feel for it, but if you're going to the trouble of doing a demo video, why not use the right tools?

ScooterLou · Post by **ScooterLou** » Tue May 10, 2011 9:48 pm

Since this is my 500 mi. Fluid change and after watching the first service video I'm taking it in to have the dealer do it. I think it might be running a little rich anyway cause I'm not getting quite the mileage I think I should (60mpg).

xtetra · Post by **xtetra** » Fri May 13, 2011 5:45 am

ericalm wrote:Torque it! There have been numerous instances of hand-tightened oil filters spinning off and destroying engines in a flash. Even dealers have done it. 12ft. lbs. and you're good to go!

I agree and I'll tell you why. I've always been a torque wrench fanatic. This spring was the first that I didn't use it when I changed my 2006 buddy 125's oil, and guess what happened on my way home tonight? Yep, oil everywhere but in the crank case. A friend helped me out with a quart of oil and then followed me home but buddy isn't sounding right. I was lucky enough not to seize the engine but it seems a bit louder now and has a few funny ticking noises. It doesn't seem to have lost compression, but I haven't checked it with a guage yet

Not sure what I'm in for in the way of repairs. The valves were due so I'll look after that, change the oil/filter and then see what I've got. If anyone has any suggestions as to additional checks I should make I'd appreciate it.

Semper Vigilance to all you oil changers! Viva la torque wrench!

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:34 pm

I'll resurrect this thread to say:

Torque it. Filter came loose on my wife's buddy, and the oil leaked out.

Jury is out on the damage, but it can't be healthy.

xtetra · Post by **xtetra** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:09 am

An update on my 2006 if anyone has this happen to them and is viewing this in angst. I put a heavier oil in and ran it for a bit. She was quiet for a few miles then the noise came back. It sounded like jigsaw or something as I recall. She has sat in the garage since. I'm on roads that aren't scoot friendly these days. That will change this spring...so since I live alone I'm going to bring Tammy into the kitchen and get her motor out on the table and tear it down. I'll post pics of the damage, but it will take me a few weeks to get to it.

KrispyKreme · Post by **KrispyKreme** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:30 am

Torque it is the safest bet. I myself just use regular socket wrench and get it snug. As Dooglas mentioned, I too check it for the next day or so for leaks and such. Never had a problem. Remember to put some oil on the rubber gasket before screwing on. I know this is oil change 101 stuff, but better safe than sorry.

eljohno · Post by **eljohno** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:19 pm

Just bought 2 Buddy's a 125 for wife and a 150 for me. Go buy a torque wrench in inch # and torque filter and drain plug to 144 inch #

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:27 pm

I have a 'cheap' torque wrench that, like the one mentioned at the top of the thread, goes from something like 10-120 lb/ft. The problem with these tools is that they're not very accurate at the high or low ends of their range. Without calibrating it with real hanging weight, I'm not confident about dialing in 12 lb/ft.

george54 · Post by **george54** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:58 pm

Are you guys over-thinking this or are Buddys somehow different than any other motor vehicle?

Every vehicle manual and every oil filter with printed instructions on them all say to spin it on until the gasket touches the engine casing and then turn it 1/4 turn more and you're done.
I've changed the oil on the 20+ cars and 20 motorcycles I've owned and never had either a leak or a filter that couldn't come off.

(I've owned a torque wrench for over 20 years and have used it once.)

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:05 pm

george54 wrote:Are you guys over-thinking this or are Buddys somehow different than any other motor vehicle?

Every vehicle manual and every oil filter with printed instructions on them all say to spin it on until the gasket touches the engine casing and then turn it 1/4 turn more and you're done.
I've changed the oil on the 20+ cars and 20 motorcycles I've owned and never had either a leak or a filter that couldn't come off.

(I've owned a torque wrench for over 20 years and have used it once.)

This is what I've always done except I do 1/2 a turn or so. Never had one come loose. But, do whatever makes you comfortable.

KrispyKreme · Post by **KrispyKreme** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:23 pm

babblefish wrote:
george54 wrote:Are you guys over-thinking this or are Buddys somehow different than any other motor vehicle?

Every vehicle manual and every oil filter with printed instructions on them all say to spin it on until the gasket touches the engine casing and then turn it 1/4 turn more and you're done.
I've changed the oil on the 20+ cars and 20 motorcycles I've owned and never had either a leak or a filter that couldn't come off.

(I've owned a torque wrench for over 20 years and have used it once.)
This is what I've always done except I do 1/2 a turn or so. Never had one come loose. But, do whatever makes you comfortable.

I use a wrench to tighten but never used a torque wrench. Never had an issue.

Tocsik · Post by **Tocsik** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:28 am

ScooterLou,
There are numerous stories of Buddy oil filters vibrating loose and dropping all the oil out of the motor, causing catastrophic failure. Now, the filter on the 150 sits on an oil cooler and not on the motor itself. This will make vibration much less of an issue than it is with the 125's.
That said, it's still best to torque that sucker, just in case. But 12 ft/lbs isn't a ton so you could certainly wrench-tighten within reason and feel comfortable. Not too tight; the threaded nipple is aluminum.
Just check it every once in a while for the first couple hundred miles after the oil change.

But, since it's your 500 mile service, it may be best to take it to the dealer. They should give it a once-over to check for loose bolts etc with the first service. Probably better for your warranty to have the first one done by the dealer. Not required if you keep records and receipts for your own DIY upkeep, though.

Hopefully not too contradictory info here, just options.

About your mileage. Since your scooter is new, it's not broken-in yet. Your mileage and performance will both show a nice bump soon. The mileage should be better after 1000 miles or so and the performance will be there around 1500 miles.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:57 am

george54 wrote:Every vehicle manual and every oil filter with printed instructions on them all say to spin it on until the gasket touches the engine casing and then turn it 1/4 turn more and you're done.

The difference between this scooter and 99.44% of other motor vehicles is that all those other spin-on filters have a flat-profile rubber washer that seals up nice and tight to the crankcase with just a wisp of oil on the face of the washer. The Piaggio-designed filter also used by PGO has a donut-shaped O-ring (not a flat surface), so it requires a bit more torque to squish down the O-ring tight against the mount. Thus PGO calls for 12 lb/ft. That being said, there's probably some fraction of a turn after contact that corresponds to the correct squish, but I don't know what it is.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:11 am

My internal torque meter tells me that 12 ft.lbs is WAY too much. I've always used my internal torque meter and it has never failed me. But I don't advise this technique unless you have a finely tuned internal torque meter and a sixth sense understanding of how much to tighten things.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:52 am

k1dude wrote:My internal torque meter tells me that 12 ft.lbs is WAY too much. I've always used my internal torque meter and it has never failed me. But I don't advise this technique unless you have a finely tuned internal torque meter and a sixth sense understanding of how much to tighten things.

I think what k1dude is trying to say is that when one has done a lot of mechanical work, particularly on cars, motorcycles, and such, one develops a feel for how tight things should be. Being mechanically inclined doesn't come from being born with it, but from experience. And btw, 12 ft/lbs of torque on an oil filter seems a bit high to me, too. After all, the cylinder head nuts are spec'd at 14-15 ft/lb, and they definitely have to be tight. But again, whatever floats your boat...

kmrcstintn · Post by **kmrcstintn** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:17 pm

I used to do my own oil/filter changes on my Buddy 125's; filters were HiFlo Filtro with the slotted top & I used a ratchet with extension and slotted adaptetr I bought from ScooterWest; after getting filter spun on by hand I would use ratchet to ease the filter tight, let it sit 30 seconds to seat compress the gasket then loosen and slowly tighten with ratchet until the resistence started to increase (which is close to hand tighten and additional 1/4 turn); never had a problem with overtightening or working loose...

GregsBuddy · Post by **GregsBuddy** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:31 pm

+1 k1dude