Buddy 150 - hard start, dies at idle, runs under load

Gin · Post by **Gin** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:37 am

Hi all,

I don't post much, but I lurk. And I have a large problem. I have a Buddy 150 that has sat in unused for 9 months or so (long story). I put stabilizer in the gas, but the tank was only 1/3 full or so when I had to leave it. On a battery charger the whole time. It has low miles and has been babied when I'm around. Anyway, I had a heck of a time getting it started. Right now, I can start it only by giving it some throttle once I hear it kick over. If I keep the rpms up high, it keeps running. Seems a little uneven though, but it will run up all the way. The minute the throttle comes off, though, it dies with a clunk. Just no willingness to run at idle whatsoever. Doesn't matter where the idle adjustment speed is.

I have cleaned the carb jets (the idle jets didn't look clear, but the main jets did). It seemed a bit better after that, but it still takes throttle to start and dies immediately if I come off the throttle all the way. I couldn't easily drain the tank (tips anyone? only a bit flowed out of the fuel line when I detached it from the carb and tried to drain it). But I added 2/3 a gal of fresh gas, with a couple of ounces of sea foam. Not a lot of change. I can start by goosing the throttle once it kicks, then hold it up. I can ride it at speed. I can even come off the throttle as lond as I have some back compression off the engine. But when I bring it home, come in without the compression, and come off the throttle, it dies right away.

Ty the way: I've scoured the thread and gotten the ideas for blowing out the jets, trying the sea foam, etc. I see lots about the stator. Would that make sense with what I'm experiencing?

Any and all ideas welcome. I'll be transporting the scoot to my permanent home (I have been keeping it at a relatives' place where I visited) and can work on it more there. I was just trying to get it running first. Love scooting in this area and would like to take a few final treks here.

Thanks.

beastmaster · Post by **beastmaster** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:51 am

5 hail marys and 10 our fathers sprinkle some holy water in the gas tank and shell start right up!!

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:34 am

I'm thinking it's still an issue in the carb.

If it's starting under these conditions it's unlikely to be electrical or the plug. Could be fuel supply.

Did you pull the carb out, take the whole thing apart and clean it?

Other possibility is a clogged or stuck valve.

My best 2 guesses at this point!

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:57 am

Gin wrote:I see lots about the stator. Would that make sense with what I'm experiencing?

No. The most likely problem is your carb. The only other thing I've seen produce exactly that symptom was a stuck valve. I can't remember if it was intake or exhaust, but it produced exactly that symptom.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:37 pm

It's possible, though unlikely, that your idle adjust screw has worked itself loose and isn't providing gas when the throttle is at rest. Even if the jets are clean, this may hurt you. Try taking a couple of clockwise turns on the idle screw (where the throttle cable meets the carb's throttle arm - NOT the screw on the side of the carb body!!). See if it will hold idle.

Gin · Post by **Gin** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:37 pm

I did pull the carb out, cleaned out the jets, and hit any other obvious places (like the channel for the air/fuel mixture screw) with several shots of pressurized carb cleaner. On restart, I thought for a split second that had done the full trick. It acted like it wanted to idle. But that was momentary.

But it might be worth a second cleaning. My site here isn't optimal -- limited tools, no workbench, etc. If I do it again, I'll wait until I transport it home.

Meanwhile, though, a stuck or clogged valve, heh? How would I (a) check to see if that's the issue, and (b) unstuck or unclog it?

Thanks everyone.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:33 pm

How sure are you that you actually got the idle jet clean? All your symptoms nicely describe a clogged idle jet. Have you tried replacing the jet? That is easy and cheap.

Gin · Post by **Gin** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:53 pm

The idle speed screw seems fine, don't think that's the problem, but I appreciate the thought. It's entirely possible I didn't get the jet(s) cleaned out well. Really am limited in terms of tools and work space here. Guess I will try again. Still interested in how to check for a stuck valve. Looked at the tech article on adjusting the valves. Not obvious to me that I would know if a valve were clogged or stuck by pulling off the valve cover. Any advice on that?

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:30 pm

I'm thinking that if one of your valves were dorked up, your performance at higher RPMs would suffer as well. This explanation hurts my head a little.

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:20 pm

PeteH wrote:I'm thinking that if one of your valves were dorked up, your performance at higher RPMs would suffer as well. This explanation hurts my head a little.

I mentioned it because that's what Rob's Buddy did on the '08 Cannonball. We took the carb apart and cleaned every circuit and every jet twice. It still ran, still made power, but would not idle. Finally, he took it to a Genuine dealer and they figured it out, fixed it, and sent him on his way. I was really embarrassed because I'd been so sure it was a carb problem.

Anyway, that's why I mentioned it.

Gin · Post by **Gin** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:33 pm

Slight update -- this a.m., with scoot totally cold, and after yesterday's efforts to blow out the cobwebs, the Buddy started right up without a hitch. Ran at idle for about 1 minute, then bogged down and died. I figure that the choke (whatever serves that function) had kicked on, but with just a little warm up (weatherwise, it was already warm out) the choke went off, and Buddy died.

Not sure if that is a clue that helps with the puzzle, but I thought I'd let you know.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:59 pm

jrsjr wrote:
PeteH wrote:I'm thinking that if one of your valves were dorked up, your performance at higher RPMs would suffer as well. This explanation hurts my head a little.
I mentioned it because that's what Rob's Buddy did on the '08 Cannonball. We took the carb apart and cleaned every circuit and every jet twice. It still ran, still made power, but would not idle. Finally, he took it to a Genuine dealer and they figured it out, fixed it, and sent him on his way. I was really embarrassed because I'd been so sure it was a carb problem. Anyway, that's why I mentioned it.

Who knew? OK, I suppose it's a possibility as well, although the last new bit of symptomology makes things interesting. Could still be a valve clearance thing as it comes up to temperature?

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:59 pm

Hmm… There's an auto choke that will engage/disengage as needed. Could be that.

Or… fuel petcock?

This gets more difficult to pin down each day!

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:01 pm

Yeah, but the Bud doesn't really have a choke - it's a fuel enricher - admits more gas rather than less air when cold.

My head still hurts.

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:42 pm

PeteH wrote:My head still hurts.

Sorry, didn't mean to give you a headache. Just reporting what I saw. Wish I'd been there at the dealer so I'd know exactly wht they found and how. All Rob told me was they told him a valve was sticking.

P.S. This was the scooter that broke down a few days later within site of the finish line, so that may tell you something. Or it may just make your headache worse...

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:49 pm

I'd say that nothing has really changed. It wouldn't idle warm before, and it won't idle warm now. If anything it is getting better - before it wouldn't start without throttle; now it will (until it warms up).

It still sounds like an idle jet/passage problem; one that the Seafoam is slowly cleaning up.

Campbell990 · Post by **Campbell990** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:38 pm

I agree with the idea that it is still the carb. I think it is a clogged pilot jet. When my scoot did this I used extra seafoam and fresh gas and once I got it started and let the seafoam/gas into the carb I let it sit over night. The next day I was able to raise the idle enough to keep it running and road it around varying the throttle like when I broke it in. It seemed like the vacuum from the engine sucked some of that stuff out on hard engine deceleration. The more I road it the better it got until I was able to lower the idle again.

gitsum79 · Post by **gitsum79** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:22 pm

Gin wrote:Slight update -- this a.m., with scoot totally cold, and after yesterday's efforts to blow out the cobwebs, the Buddy started right up without a hitch. Ran at idle for about 1 minute, then bogged down and died. I figure that the choke (whatever serves that function) had kicked on, but with just a little warm up (weatherwise, it was already warm out) the choke went off, and Buddy died.

Not sure if that is a clue that helps with the puzzle, but I thought I'd let you know.

Sounds like it idles fine with the enricher doing it's job and dumping extra fuel in.
After warm up, enricher closes and now it doesn't have enough fuel to idle properly.

Fuel delivery problem? Since you can keep the engine running adding some throttle, like everyone is suggesting I would suspect the pilot jet. Maybe the idle adjust screw or air/fuel mixture screw.

You could also check the float bowl level, vacuum and fuel lines as well as the fuel filter. Dumping a few ounces of Seafoam in the tank would be a good idea.

agrogod · Post by **agrogod** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:42 am

I've noticed everyone doing 'seagull on french fry' with the carb and valves, but have you done a basic fuel line check?
Just from some of my own past automotive problems, I had a bad fuel filter one time, exhibited some of the symptoms you have. Of course rust chips and /or sediment in the gas tank, bad fuel lines, gas gone bad, pinched hoses are a few things that come to mind.

I've used Seafoam and Stabil before but I am also a new supporter of

seems to work like an adrenaline shot for small engines.

Gin · Post by **Gin** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:34 pm

Great help and advice, everyone. Tried to give it about a 10 minute run yesterday, with some wide open throttle on parts of the run. Kept it running when I had to stop at a couple of intersections by goosing the throttle just enough to keep the idle up, but not enough to jump through the intersection. Ran well except for one thing -- a new backfire. (Likely an issue with where I set the fuel mixture screw after breaking down the carb. I'll lean it out a bit.) As I brought Buddy home, rolled off the throttle turning into the driveway, it quietly died. So the issue remains unresolved. Oh, I did check the spark plug afterwards. It looks good. No issues there.

At this point, I'm going to transport it back home as I originally planned. I'm giving up on riding it much around here, and I plan tear the carb down again when I get it home. I agree with everyone that it still sounds like a carb/fuel line issue. I'll work through the entire fuel delivery system as best I can. I'll report back with an update. Fingers crossed.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:08 pm

The observation that the scooter runs fine above idle is not pointing me to a fuel line obstruction, petcock failure, or other fuel system problem of this type. I am still back there with the idle jet and adjustments. Could it be something else? Sure. But I would still replace the idle jet (cheap) and readjust fuel mixture and delivery at idle before I headed off on a long list of other possibilities. (always start with the simplist explanation and eliminate it first

)

JettaKnight · Post by **JettaKnight** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:09 pm

Gin wrote: I see lots about the stator. Would that make sense with what I'm experiencing?

I know I'm going against the grain here, but I had the same exact problem twice. Each time I changed the stator and it fixed it.

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:23 pm

JettaKnight wrote:I know I'm going against the grain here...

Danger, Will Robinson! Danger! Danger!

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:42 pm

JettaKnight wrote:I know I'm going against the grain here, but I had the same exact problem twice. Each time I changed the stator and it fixed it.

Well sure, many things are within the realm of possibility. On the other hand, I have put a bunch of miles on scooters. Never had a stator failure. Have had clogged carb jets any number of times. I wouldn't suggest that a rider react to every instance of rough running by replacing the stator to see if that helps. (now if you have tried all the simple and straight forward stuff.......

)

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:11 pm

Did this problem ever get sorted? Does anybody know?

mhardgrove · Post by **mhardgrove** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:24 pm

If you haven't gotten this figured out pull the idle jet in the carb and have it cleaned out. I had the exact same problem, it wouldnt start unless I had the throttle open and would never idle. The issue is that the idle jet was clogged but the main jet wasn't. With the throttle open the main jet takes over allowing the scooter to start, but once the fuel stops from the main and with a clogged idle jet it dies. I tried seafoam before pulling the jet, it was unable to get the gunk out of it.

I was able to clean the jet myself by boiling it in lemon juice you get from the store (the juice doesn't react with the jet becasue it is made from brass). Feel free to change out the strator, but pulling a jet to see if its clogged is free if you can do it yourself. Hope you get the scoot running right again.

CROSSBOLT · Post by **CROSSBOLT** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:13 pm

I had the same problem on a Yamaha Vino 50. The fix was to remove the "idle" jet, soak it in carb cleaner an use a VERY small wire from a stainless steel brush which appeared smaller than the hole in the jet to worry out the sludge from the jet hole. I HAD to use a magnifier to see this stuff and I did see the blob of crud come out. It fixed the problem which is the exact same symptoms of yours. The seafoam soak only gets to one side of the problem. Even soaking the jet in carb cleaner seems ineffective since the blob seems insoluable. Give it a try and let us ALL know how it works out.

Karl

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:32 pm

CROSSBOLT wrote:I had the same problem on a Yamaha Vino 50. The fix was to remove the "idle" jet, soak it in carb cleaner an use a VERY small wire from a stainless steel brush which appeared smaller than the hole in the jet to worry out the sludge from the jet hole. I HAD to use a magnifier to see this stuff and I did see the blob of crud come out. It fixed the problem which is the exact same symptoms of yours. The seafoam soak only gets to one side of the problem. Even soaking the jet in carb cleaner seems ineffective since the blob seems insoluable. Give it a try and let us ALL know how it works out.

Karl

Compressed air is probably a better first option than a wire… Unless, like me, you don't have your own compressor. Yet.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:54 pm

Yep, all it takes is one little fleck of grit making it past the fuel filter to ruin your whole idle-jet day.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:13 pm

I agree with others. it REALLY sounds like a clogged pilot. SOMETIMES you can heat the jet ( while holding in pliers) with a small lighter or "crack torch" and if its fouled fuel deposits it will melt right out, it WORKS!

I usually use compressed air, but when without, this trick often works!

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:22 pm

Gin wrote:I have cleaned the carb jets (the idle jet didn't look clear, but the main jet did). It seemed a bit better after that, but it still takes throttle to start and dies immediately if I come off the throttle all the way.

I think you answered your own question. I'd go back to that idle jet again. Carb jets are cheap. Get a new one and swap out the idle jet that doesn't look clear. See what happens then.

jijifer · Post by **jijifer** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:24 pm

and I'm always an advocate for changing the spark plug - you shouldn't have to pull the throttle to get it to start.

matty_x · Post by **matty_x** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:08 am

The simplest solution is the place to start. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and gets drunk like a duck, it's probably a clogged idle jet.

vicky59 · Post by **vicky59** » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:12 pm

My wife has always had a problem starting her Buddy 125 if it is not used for a few weeks.
Getting it started after Winter storage has always been very difficult. It went back to the shop last year to correct this issue, they said they cleaned the carburetor, and it was OK for about a month and then returned to the previous problems. I tried replacing the auto bystarter choke unit and this did not help.
I solved this issue by rerouting the carburetor air intake tube from under the plastic liner beneath the seat to just under the right rear cowling above the fender(see photos) #1 original position, #2 is tube rerouted, #3 & #4 are views from the right rear. If the scooter does not start immediately you hold your hand over the end of the tube and it starts, every time. This modification effectively manually chokes the carburetor. There have been no problems starting the Buddy since this was done.

Modern Buddy

Buddy 150 - hard start, dies at idle, runs under load

Buddy 150 - hard start, dies at idle, runs under load

Re: Buddy 150 - hard start, dies at idle, runs under load

Re: Buddy 150 - hard start, dies at idle, runs under load

Re: Buddy 150 - hard start, dies at idle, runs under load

Re: Buddy 150 - hard start, dies at idle, runs under load

Re: Buddy 150 - hard start, dies at idle, runs under load

Hard starting Buddy