Modern Buddy

Yes please.....

http://blog.motorcycle.com/2011/10/17/m ... xi-scoter/

With all the super/maxi/sport scooters coming out, from everywhere, it's going to be a pretty awesome next couple of years.........

Okay...We need to define what makes a "scooter"...Looks like a middleweight sportbike clad in plastic to me...A LOT of fun, but a scooter?...lets discuss?

I think the usual definition for being a scooter is that it's a step-through with an automatic or a Vespa-style hand shifter. Maxi-scooters usually have the humps in between your feet, but that kind of seems to go against the idea of it being a step-through.

viney266 wrote:Okay...We need to define what makes a "scooter"...Looks like a middleweight sportbike clad in plastic to me...A LOT of fun, but a scooter?...lets discuss?

More like a overweight sportbike.
I'd rather just get the Tmax, or a real sportbike if im gonna go big.

This looks similar in style to a Blur. I'd consider that a scooter without being a step through...

I would almost say it's more reminiscent to a Honda PCX, personally.


PCX


Blur

It has much less step-through-ability than the Blur... and idk, I don't think I would really consider this new Aprilia a "scooter" per say, it's more like an automatic, hand brake-using motorcycle.

Personally, I just like to ride two-wheeled vehicles, step-through or not, powered or not...

Including these::)


I guess this could considered to be a step-through...

It's a rebadged and slightly retooled Gilera GP800, which was never sold in the US. There's a chance of this one coming in 2012. The engine has already cleared EPA; it's the same one in the Aprilia Mana. It's also the world's fastest production scooter. Yay.

The Gilera has gotten some less than glowing reviews, though. Hopefully some of the criticisms have been addressed on this one.

I have a feeling US price on this may come in under the BMW C650. Problem is whether an Aprilia can compete with buyers (who don't yet know they want a scooter) who really want a BMW.

I'm more excited about the Beverly BV 350 ST coming to the US!

The cool thing about the Aprillia 850, not only is it automatic but it can be shifted via a button without a clutch. Cool huh I wish they would do this on the BV 500. Now that would be an awesome scoot.

2wheelNsanity wrote:The cool thing about the Aprillia 850, not only is it automatic but it can be shifted via a button without a clutch. Cool huh I wish they would do this on the BV 500. Now that would be an awesome scoot.

The Mana has an automatic transmission with three riding "modes" as well as 7-speed shifting. I don't think the GP800 has this; all the info on it and the RSV850 say it's a CVT.

One of the big criticisms of the GP800 is the chain drive. Don't know if this is also in the Aprilia version.

FWIW, the Mana is just under $10K MSRP.

Well… converted to US price the price of a GP800 overseas is around $11K. About the same or even more than the Mana once they get it over here. Hm!

I don't consider that Aprilia a scooter. It's a motorcycle.

The problem with the Mana 850 is the lack of a left hand lever. Whether it's a clutch or brake handle, there should be one. I wish they had dumped the foot brake and made it a left hand lever just like a bicycle or scooter. To have nothing is just weird.

I can't tell if the new motorcycle posted has that same missing handle. You can't tell from the photo.

k1dude wrote:I can't tell if the new motorcycle posted has that same missing handle. You can't tell from the photo.

It has a left (I assume brake) handle.

ericalm wrote:Well… converted to US price the price of a GP800 overseas is around $11K. About the same or even more than the Mana once they get it over here. Hm!

You can't just convert the Euro to $.
People do the same with cars and they think a car will be like $60k one converted when they are actually like $45k.

Let's just wait and see.
It will be slighlty more than the MP3 500, but not sure about how much.
The engine already being available and certified in the States might help tremendously!

It is chain final drive, and as it is a reskin of the Gilera, the 10 hour process to replace the chain (as mentioned by an owner of the GP on modernvespa) is a deal killer.
Apparently an awful lot of the bike has to be dismantled.

Alexbv200 wrote:You can't just convert the Euro to $

Oh, I know! I'm just ballparking and hypothesizing.

Now I can't remember which comments I've made on MV and which here. Forum overload!

ericalm wrote:

Alexbv200 wrote:You can't just convert the Euro to $

Oh, I know! I'm just ballparking and hypothesizing.

Now I can't remember which comments I've made on MV and which here. Forum overload!

No kidding

For example (!) an Audi R8 supercar is $150K in the US, but $250K in Europe!

Good thing I bought my R8 in the US.

ericalm wrote:Good thing I bought my R8 in the US.

Worthless without pics...

ericalm wrote:Good thing I bought my R8 in the US.

You and me too!

Akshully, what is interesting is it seems BMW motorcycles are priced about the same in the UK compared to the US.
Japanese bikes seem much cheaper in the US than the UK

viney266 wrote:Okay...We need to define what makes a "scooter"...Looks like a middleweight sportbike clad in plastic to me...A LOT of fun, but a scooter?...lets discuss?

Agreed. I was thinking/ saying the same thing the other day about the Beamer mega scoots.

Ethan Allison wrote:I think the usual definition for being a scooter is that it's a step-through with an automatic or a Vespa-style hand shifter. Maxi-scooters usually have the humps in between your feet, but that kind of seems to go against the idea of it being a step-through.

Yes and yes. The biggest reason I kind of just don't like the bigger scoots... they don't seem like scoots to me. They seem like small cycles.

Alexbv200 wrote:

ericalm wrote:Good thing I bought my R8 in the US.

Worthless without pics...

I traded this one for the convertible.

Oops, there goes the secret identity.

Upon first encountering his wife following the purchase, Eric wisely protects his now secondmost prized possessions behind the door of the R8.

LunaP wrote:

viney266 wrote:Okay...We need to define what makes a "scooter"...Looks like a middleweight sportbike clad in plastic to me...A LOT of fun, but a scooter?...lets discuss?

Agreed. I was thinking/ saying the same thing the other day about the Beamer mega scoots.

Ethan Allison wrote:I think the usual definition for being a scooter is that it's a step-through with an automatic or a Vespa-style hand shifter. Maxi-scooters usually have the humps in between your feet, but that kind of seems to go against the idea of it being a step-through.

Yes and yes. The biggest reason I kind of just don't like the bigger scoots... they don't seem like scoots to me. They seem like small cycles.

One of the most hilarious and telling things about the scooter community is that we can't agree on what a scooter is. This is the fundamental disagreement that's the starting point for us disagreeing about everything and anything!

People have different definitions of what qualifies as a "scooter," often using arcane and arbitrary qualifiers like tire size, engine size, body design, engine placement, etc. There are exceptions to almost every one of these that usually still count as scooters, though.

Personally, I like the broad federal definitions.
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards §571.123, S4:

Scooter means a motorcycle that:
(1) Has a platform for the operator’s feet or has integrated footrests, and
(2) Has a step-through architecture, meaning that the part of the vehicle forward of the operator's seat and between the legs of an operator seated in the riding position, is lower in height than the operator’s seat.

FMVSS §571.3:

Motorcycle means a motor vehicle with motive power having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground.

States have their own definitions, though…
(Above pasted from last time this was discussed )

So, that's footrests—not necessarily floorboards—and "step through" in a not so literal way, simply meaning the part in front of the seat is lower than the seat. (As broad as the FMVSS definitions are, there are still exceptions and models that don't quite fit anywhere. Always have been. Always will be.)

These definitions all us to lay the claim that the first true motorcycle was in fact a scooter! FTW!

If a gigantic Harley, a Honda tourer with hard cases sticking out of every possible angle, a dual sport, a little trail bike, a 1200cc sportbike, this and this can all be motorcycles, why do we have such narrow definitions of scooters?

Some vintage enthusiasts point to a definition that the Motorcycle Manufacturers Association (ANCMA) came up with in 1951:
"An engine-powered vehichle without pedals for human propulsion characterised by an open frame in the front and rear parts joined by a continuous footrest, and by two wheels the diameter of which is no greater than 12 inches."

Sixty years ago, though, that was pretty much what there was as far as popular scooters went. Now, that's just not the case. A Kymco People is obviously a scooter. Tire size isn't a relevant dividing line anymore.

It's true that on the big end, scoots like this and the Honda Integra are edging very close to motorcycles. This has the same engine as the Mana motorcycle. But it's still a scooter.

I get that many of us are drawn to and have attachments to "classic" style scooters with an essentially Vespa-like shape. But as with cars or motorcycles or other vehicles, people are usually only going to like a small subset or type.

A LOT of people whose opinions I respect disagree with me on this, especially in respect to the GP800/RSV850, which has a chain drive and

ericalm wrote:A LOT of people whose opinions I respect disagree with me on this, especially in respect to the GP800/RSV850, which has a chain drive and...?

And what?

Oh, from what I've heard, the defining definition of a "scooter" is having the engine integral with the rear swingarm.

Roose Hurro wrote:

ericalm wrote:A LOT of people whose opinions I respect disagree with me on this, especially in respect to the GP800/RSV850, which has a chain drive and...?

And what?

Oh, from what I've heard, the defining definition of a "scooter" is having the engine integral with the rear swingarm.

Whose definition is that? I've heard that too from some people, but it's not like the motorcycle industry is using it.

A lot of these new scooters—that the industry is calling scooters and selling as scooters—have frame-mounted engines. That also includes several maxiscoots. Early Lambrettas didn't have a swingarm mounted engine. A lot of the underbone bikes are scooters and have frame-mounted engines while miknibikes and some other motorcycles have had swingarm-mounted ones.

I'm not pushing my definition. I just think it's good to have one beyond "I know it when I see it." I like a broad one because it promotes scooters as a diverse group of vehicles with appeal for many types of riders. Either way, there is no perfect definition—not the one I use, not any that I've ever heard.

Like a lot of things in life, there will always be fanatics/snobs who will insist certain things must adhere to certain guidelines (usually their own ) otherwise, it's wrong. Take for example wine - wine bottles with twist caps? No way! Wine that dispenses out of a box? Heresy! Anyway, like I said before, if it has two wheels, I'll ride it.

BTW: Anyone from the SF Bay Area going to the International Motorcycle Show that's coming up this month?

The only thing I can think of is that motorcycles have a gear selector petal and scooters do not.

Other defining features are:

An enclosed engine section (swingarm or not) to keep engine gunk off of casual clothing (that's from something I read but can't source at the moment about the original design of scooters). This one is HUGE because of the main side effect: engine heat is kept from the rider which makes for a MUCH more comfortable experience in warm weather.

A legshield or otherwise well developed lower fairing.

On board storage? This one mainly applies to modern scoots with their under seat buckets.

Low center of gravity for easier handling - this is characteristic of having the fuel tank placed lower than the saddle but most easily observed by a lack of a tank hump.


I think those are the main ones. Scooters are designed to be easier to operate and more convenient for around town type activities. The flip side is that they are often harder to work on due to the amount of panels that must be removed compared to a "proper" motorcycle. If you've ever tried to change the oil in a full faired sport touring motorcycle, you'd laugh your ass off at that generalization, though.

I'm looking forward to more diverse options here in the States. We're embarrassingly behind the rest of the world in motorcycles (which includes scooters).

Lostmycage wrote:The only thing I can think of is that motorcycles have a gear selector petal and scooters do not.

Some do! Symba, Cub, some other old Hondas have a pedal selector, usually with clutch-less shifting.

ericalm wrote:

Lostmycage wrote:The only thing I can think of is that motorcycles have a gear selector petal and scooters do not.

Some do! Symba, Cub, some other old Hondas have a pedal selector, usually with clutch-less shifting.

I consider them motorcycles (or mopeds, beefed up as they may be for that classification). Go figure, lol.

Lostmycage wrote:

ericalm wrote:

Lostmycage wrote:The only thing I can think of is that motorcycles have a gear selector petal and scooters do not.

Some do! Symba, Cub, some other old Hondas have a pedal selector, usually with clutch-less shifting.

I consider them motorcycles (or mopeds, beefed up as they may be for that classification). Go figure, lol.

My point exactly!

ericalm wrote:

Lostmycage wrote:

ericalm wrote: Some do! Symba, Cub, some other old Hondas have a pedal selector, usually with clutch-less shifting.

I consider them motorcycles (or mopeds, beefed up as they may be for that classification). Go figure, lol.

My point exactly!

Yeah! Exactly!

What... what?

rsrider wrote:

Yes please.....

concur. with a cherry on top

it looks AWESOME

Lostmycage wrote:

ericalm wrote:

Lostmycage wrote: I consider them motorcycles (or mopeds, beefed up as they may be for that classification). Go figure, lol.

My point exactly!

Yeah! Exactly!

What... what?

Bahahaha

I see what you mean, Eric. I like the vague federal guidelines and I'm okay withe definitions being vague- I suppose I almost expected people to have different opinions about it. But the one thing I'd put my foot down about is the 'step through' part. This doesn't even remotely look step through to me. I suppose I am being too literal.

Maybe there is something I am not seeing here but a new chain can be attached to an old chain and pulled through not requiring 10 hours of disassembly. Now that countershaft sprocket... is another topic altogether.

Scooter or not by definition or looks, that's one sweet looking machine.

brianwheelies wrote:Maybe there is something I am not seeing here but a new chain can be attached to an old chain and pulled through not requiring 10 hours of disassembly. Now that countershaft sprocket... is another topic altogether.

You are replacing more than just the chain.
The countershaft sprocket (as you have mentioned) and other ancillary parts also need replacing.

10 flippin' hours - which means the bike needs to be partially disassembled. To replace a wear part? Crap design, no thanks.

just to clear up the cvt/chain issue, the mana has both. its a servo controlled cvt system with the final drive duties left to the chain/sprocket. maintenance, yes, expensive. 12k miles for belt change at $180 for just the belt (last I looked anyway). I can't imagine 10 hours for a chain replacement on the scooter version. I'm sure it takes more than 5 minutes though.

I still have the training materials for the mana engine. its not a simple machine. lots of sensors and I for sure wouldn't want to diagnose without a navigator.

I saw a gp800 at piaggio tech in 2009, I was told it can make 600cc sportbikes feel real stupid.

aaronnobody wrote: I saw a gp800 at piaggio tech in 2009, I was told it can make 600cc sportbikes feel real stupid.

How so? It weighs about 100 lbs more than them and makes about 40hp less.
Unless it is a 600cc sportbike rider that does not know how to ride.

desmolicious wrote:

aaronnobody wrote: I saw a gp800 at piaggio tech in 2009, I was told it can make 600cc sportbikes feel real stupid.

How so? It weighs about 100 lbs more than them and makes about 40hp less.
Unless it is a 600cc sportbike rider that does not know how to ride.

A scooter will always outhandle a sportbike due to it's much lower CG. It may not be as fast on the straights, but in the curves, lookout!

k1dude wrote:

desmolicious wrote:

aaronnobody wrote: I saw a gp800 at piaggio tech in 2009, I was told it can make 600cc sportbikes feel real stupid.

How so? It weighs about 100 lbs more than them and makes about 40hp less.
Unless it is a 600cc sportbike rider that does not know how to ride.

A scooter will always outhandle a sportbike due to it's much lower CG. It may not be as fast on the straights, but in the curves, lookout!

I can't agree with that at all. Sportbikes are set up for performance. A scooterist can out handle a squid (squirrley-kid?) on a sportbike perhaps, but if a rider knows what they're doing a sportbike can be the precise scalpel to the scooter's box cutter with the same rider. There's just a level of control you can't get with a scooter that you can with a sportbike.

Lostmycage wrote:

k1dude wrote:

desmolicious wrote: How so? It weighs about 100 lbs more than them and makes about 40hp less.
Unless it is a 600cc sportbike rider that does not know how to ride.

A scooter will always outhandle a sportbike due to it's much lower CG. It may not be as fast on the straights, but in the curves, lookout!

I can't agree with that at all. Sportbikes are set up for performance. A scooterist can out handle a squid (squirrley-kid?) on a sportbike perhaps, but if a rider knows what they're doing a sportbike can be the precise scalpel to the scooter's box cutter with the same rider. There's just a level of control you can't get with a scooter that you can with a sportbike.

Agreed. As much as I love scooters, I've had both and done both. A good rider on a well set-up sportbike will out perform the like on a scooter, under certain riding conditions. That does not mean a sportbike is better than a scooter however. If I were riding around in the city, I'd prefer my Blur over my Suzuki 750 any day of the week. But, if I were taking a ride on Highway 1 (a fast, twisty two-laner along the coast), I'd want to be on a sportbike. What it boils down to is the right tool for the job. One doesn't use a tack hammer to build a house nor a framing hammer to make picture frames.

I remember reading an article about a decade ago where some of the best motorcycle racers in the world ride scooters in their off time. When asked why, one said there wasn't a person in the world who could beat him in the twisties when he was on his scooter. The others agreed to the superior handling of scooters and the pure fun of it. When asked why scooters weren't allowed on the race track, they pointed out the rigid rules set by governing committees that don't allow scooters due to image even though they are a superior machine. Just like bicycling didn't allow the superman position even though it was far superior. They suggested if it were a tech free-for-all and the best ride wins, motorcycle racing would turn into scooter racing. So some of the best riders in the world disagree with you.

Well, I can only go by my own personal experience but OK, if you read it somewhere, it must be true, you win.

k1dude wrote:I remember reading an article about a decade ago where some of the best motorcycle racers in the world ride scooters in their off time. When asked why, one said there wasn't a person in the world who could beat him in the twisties when he was on his scooter. The others agreed to the superior handling of scooters and the pure fun of it. When asked why scooters weren't allowed on the race track, they pointed out the rigid rules set by governing committees that don't allow scooters due to image even though they are a superior machine. Just like bicycling didn't allow the superman position even though it was far superior. They suggested if it were a tech free-for-all and the best ride wins, motorcycle racing would turn into scooter racing. So some of the best riders in the world disagree with you.

Ahahahahaha!

Sorry, you're serious aren't you?!!

You really should produce this mythical article ....
As the owner of numerous scooters and sport bikes, the scooters do not have a snow balls chance in hell in keeping up with a sport bike with riders of equal ability, on any kind of road.

I've owned and ridden Yam Tmax, Piaggio MP3 500, Stella 4T, Vespa PX, Buddy Black Jack, Vespa GTS 250 and others..

Scooters rock for what they are designed to do. Which is why I own them.
But to pull out claims like that...

Anyway, thanks for the laugh.

If I don't look like a sexy Italian on one it ain't no scooter!

Lokky wrote:If I don't look like a sexy Italian on one it ain't no scooter!

So...if you don't look Italian, it's not a scooter?

desmolicious wrote:[Ahahahahaha!

Sorry, you're serious aren't you?!!

You really should produce this mythical article ....
As the owner of numerous scooters and sport bikes, the scooters do not have a snow balls chance in hell in keeping up with a sport bike with riders of equal ability, on any kind of road.

I've owned and ridden Yam Tmax, Piaggio MP3 500, Stella 4T, Vespa PX, Buddy Black Jack, Vespa GTS 250 and others..

Scooters rock for what they are designed to do. Which is why I own them.
But to pull out claims like that...

Anyway, thanks for the laugh.

And NONE of the scooters you mentioned have one single racing feature put into them. Whereas sportbikes have a century's worth of racing developments put into them. If you put an equivalent amount of engineering into a scooter, a scooter would win EVERY SINGLE TIME.

It's really very simple, it comes down to simple physics. Given two bikes with equal technology, riders, power, and weight, the one with the lower center of gravity will ALWAYS win. A scooter has a FAR lower center of gravity.

If the governing bodies in racing would allow technological development to exceed the rigid standards they set for themselves, the first thing you'd see is lower engines and lower fuel tanks. But no, they won't allow that. Because if they did you'd wind up with a scooter.

Argue all you want. The laws of physics disagree with you. And that's what those racers know that you don't.

How to put his best...

I can see how a scooter might have the advantage accelerating out of a sharp turn, but generally I feel like the nod is going to have to go to the guy with the clutch...

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