Piaggio Fly 50cc vs. Genuine Buddy 50cc

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:01 pm

I'm new to the scooter world. I don't even own one yet. My main mode of transport is my trusty touring bicycle. I'm now looking to get a 50cc scooter to help me get further for commuting purposes and for jobs. My choices were/are Genuine Buddy, Piaggio Fly, Kymco Agility. I could use your knowledge to get a greater sense of these threre types of vehicles. Below, I lay out what I have found out although I don't know if the information I gathered is necessarily credible.

Originally I was looking at the Kymco Agility 50cc only. Everything I read online semmed good and the price was really good at just about $1,500!. When I visited our local dealer (who deals in Kymco, Sym, and Genuine) he said that Kymco has moved their Agility assembly line to China and likely for that reason the dealer has been seeing issues now with with Agility and no longer recommends customers getting it! These problems only started appearing this year or last year, he said. I was bummed. Is that true? What have you folks heard?

Then I asked him about the Sym, which was our second choice. He said the same thing. Sym moved certain models for assembly in China and they are exhibiting quality issues. Bummer!

Then I asked him about the Piaggio Fly 50cc which is the third in our line. The only thing he said was something like this: Like all European motorcycle companies, their parts are not easy to come by. They seem to have an attitude of "oh the customer can wait for the parts." So in other words, he's saying that parts for the Piaggio are not easily obtainable in the U.S. because the manufacturer is a little neglectful of the U.S. market or customers. What do you guys think about his statement? True?

So then he turned our attention to the Genuine Buddy 50cc which we've never considered. We like it, though I'd say the Piaggio Fly is better looking for my tastes. And, I have some doubts about the 2-stroke Buddy engine. According to the dealer, the whole debate about 2-stroke engines being less ecologically friendly isn't true. I have my doubts about that. Perhaps 2-stroke engines have come a long way from three decades ago but still, the less carbon footprint I can impose on the environment, the better. I do, after all, ride a bicycle and don't own a car! I know that 2-stroke engines have more "pep" but that's not really significant for me since I am not interested in drag races or that kind of stuff. I've spent over 15 years on a bicycle two-wheeling around and while it's not a scooter, riding a two-wheel vehicle isn't going to be the same for me as it is for someone used to running around town in a car and never used a bicycle for serious commuting and touring.

Now, we're considering the Genuine Buddy 50cc and the Piaggio Fly 50cc, both of which cost about $2,000 (+/- 100), so no real significance difference in price. How do these two scooters compare?

I have only recently learnt that winterising 50cc scooters is even more important than larger scooter engines. The way I envision me using the scooter would be something like this: mostly for commuting to work, transporting me to nearby parks or the track so I can go run without having to first bicycle there. And, the scooter would likely be sitting outdoors (no garage in this apartment!) although I would use a cover.

The Buddy and Fly are essentially the same price. I have to say I do like the fact that Piaggio is a European company but alas I also just found out that supposedly the Fly now is made or assembled in China just like Genuine's Buddy is too.

So any discriminating information you can impart with regards to the Piaggio Fly 50cc and the Genuine Buddy 50cc I would much appreciate!

Thanks!

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:58 pm

I can't say anything about how it compares to the Fly, but I can talk about the Buddy 50.

The ecological impact of the 2-stroke engine is a little complicated. They deliberately burn oil, and that puts particulate pollutants into the air; there's no getting around that fact. However they burn far less gasoline than a car and therefore produce less greenhouse gas. Of course any internal combustion engine is worse than a bicycle, but there are too many situations where my bike isn't enough, and at least the 2-stroke scooter is less harmful (overall) than my car (which... also burns oil).

To be honest I have mixed feelings about having a 2-stroke instead of a 4-stroke, because of the pollutants and the fact that they're noisier. But the additional "pep" is good for more than just racing. One difference between riding a bike and riding a scooter is that while a bike can slip in and out of traffic, taking the lane when you want it and hugging the curb when you don't, a scooter is traffic, and takes a lane no matter what. You don't just need to be able to go 35mph in a 35mph zone, you need to get up to 35mph as quickly as the cars behind you do, or risk their road rage. A 2-stroke is better at that.

Winterizing... depends on what you mean by "winter".

Here in Michigan it means bringing at least the battery indoors to keep it charged while the streets are too snowy to ride on. I bring the whole scoot in, but they can handle being left outside if you can't do that.

I use my Buddy in much the same way you describe wanting to use a scooter: commuting most of the year, getting myself to nicer places in town to exercise, and running errands around town. I've also been known to take it on the occasional thousand-mile road trip.

I'm sure there are other scoots out there that would be equally good for this, but I have no complaints about the one I bought.

To correct you on one point: the Buddy is manufactured in Taiwan, not mainland China, which is an important distinction. The company that builds them (PGO) sells essentially the same scooter domestically, so they aren't just a cheap machine built for export. And with nearly 12.5K trouble-free miles on mine, I can attest to their reliability.

heatherkay · Post by **heatherkay** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:37 pm

You might also check out the Yamaha Vino Classic. My husband got one a couple of months ago and LURVES it. It's a 4-stroke engine. I'm not sure where it was made, but Yamaha is a ubiquitous brand in the States.

ETA -- Looks like Honda Metros are 4-stroke as well.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:05 pm

TVB, thanks for the great information! Yeah, what I understand about 2-stroke engine pollution has me a little put off. I also just learnt that 2-stroke oil is not all that cheap! Hmm...!

Coming from a non-motorised transport mode, I personally like to futz around with machines and mechanics as LITTLE as possible, so my first reaction is that this whole thing is getting more complicated than I thought with getting the right kind of oil, wintersing etc.

Seems like to me a 4-stroke engine, especially one that is fuel injected is less complicated to maintain? I could be misinformed though.

Regarding bicycle riding in traffic, I'm from the school of Effective Cycling which demands that bicycles be treated like legitimate vehicular traffic. John Forrester is a great advocate of this. I do ride on the right side of the lane when I can but there are many times when I ride in the MIDDLE of the lane blocking cars from passing me when I see situations where it's too dangerous for them to pass me. Examples of this would be:
a) when curving on a blind curve, I take up the middle of the lane in order to prevent cars from overtaking me
b) when there are dangerous ruts or "splits" in the right-side of the road and to protect myself I ride in the MIDDLE of the lane
c) parked cars on the side of the road means I need to ride at least a door's width away from the cars
With a bicycle, I ride in traffic all the time, and riding on the sidewalk is most of the time a no-no for me.

--------

Heatherkay, thanks for the pointer to the Vino Classic! My husband and I just went to another dealer today to look at scooters. First time I saw a Piaggio Fly and my that thing is a little big for my taste! I was a bit put off by the size of the thing. It looks like a regular size motorcycle! So, I'm beginning to think maybe I won't consider the Piaggio Fly as an option.

We did see a Yamaha Zume (2011 model that comes with fuel injection and is 4-stroke)! It looked great and the fit seemed very well put. The only issue was the price is ANOTHER notch above what I wanted! We had already gone from $1,500 (Kymco Agility) to $2,000 to accomodate the possiblity of Genuine Buddy. Raising it another $500 to accomodate the possibility of Yamaha Zuma (total $2,500) was not attractive.

We went home and just discovered the Vino Classic which is lower in price! So now I'm going to do some research on that, especially the 2010 models that are around $2,100.

We are still considering the Geunine Buddy 50cc though.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:20 pm

AH! Just called the local dealer and they do sell the Vino Classic. At $2,250 the price is $750 above my original scooter budget of $1,500. But, this seems worthy of consideration. Thanks for pointing this out, Heatherkay!

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:18 pm

teabow1 wrote:TVB, thanks for the great information! Yeah, what I understand about 2-stroke engine pollution has me a little put off. I also just learnt that 2-stroke oil is not all that cheap! Hmm...!

It isn't? To be honest, I don't even know what I pay for 2T oil, in part because I buy it so infrequently. A quart lasts several hundred miles, so it's really a pretty insignificant expense.

Coming from a non-motorised transport mode, I personally like to futz around with machines and mechanics as LITTLE as possible, so my first reaction is that this whole thing is getting more complicated than I thought with getting the right kind of oil, wintersing etc. Seems like to me a 4-stroke engine, especially one that is fuel injected is less complicated to maintain? I could be misinformed though.

I'm about as interested in dealing with the mechanics of my scooter as I am in breeding and slaughtering my own livestock for my supper (i.e. not at all). It's not as big a deal as you make it out to be. For one thing, because a 2T burns the oil, you don't have to change it, just refill the oil reservoir from time to time when it runs low. A fuel-injected engine might deal better with temperature changes, but I've ridden my Buddy 50 in everything from 25-95ºF without any adjustment... or trouble. My car is more hassle than my scooter, and I use it a lot less.

Regarding bicycle riding in traffic, I'm from the school of Effective Cycling which demands that bicycles be treated like legitimate vehicular traffic... With a bicycle, I ride in traffic all the time, and riding on the sidewalk is most of the time a no-no for me.

Same here. My point was that on a scooter, the sidewalk and the gutter are never an option, which takes a little adjustment to your thinking. But if you're already a same-rights-same-rules bicyclist, you'll have little difficulty getting used to riding a scooter.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:58 pm

Hmm...the Genuine Buddy does look attractive still.

TVB, glad to know that the maintenance of the 2 stroke Buddy isn't much. I live in the Durham/Raleigh area recently moved from the West Coast. Summers are hot and humid. Winters, as I understand can go below freezing though certainly not as bad overall as MI.

Regarding the Vino Classic: can it accomodate a rear top case? I forget which Yamaha model it is, but one of them you refuelled from the from the back where a top case would sit, so some reviewers were saying adding a top case was not a convenient easy thing. Don't know about the Vino classic

I also was looking around at the Honda Metropolitan and the price is great at only about $2,000!

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:07 pm

Don't forget you have to take into account your riding gear too...

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:22 pm

Drum Pro, that's a good point. For the scooter alone, I'm willing to shell out about $2,000 before tax.

Ethan Allison · Post by **Ethan Allison** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:40 pm

Hate to break it to you but scooters usually cost around $500 over retail price. Tax is about $100-150 (for a $2000 scooter), destination fees are $150ish (shipping it from the factory to the dealer), unpacking and prep is $100-150, and other stuff (title, plates, etc.) is another $100ish.

For example, Buddy 50 and RH50 units are $1999 retail, but they're $2505.39 at Scooterville (local dealer). If your limit is $2000 your only options for something that isn't one of the crappy Chinese brands are the Agility and maybe the CF Moto 150cc models.

As far as gear goes, you can get a DOT helmet and a decent jacket for under $100 on Amazon. If you can afford it, you should probably get your helmet at the dealer so they can help with fitting and price concerns (i.e. cheapest one that isn't crap).

heatherkay · Post by **heatherkay** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:45 pm

I looks like it depends on what kind of top case you're planning to get. The gas cap is between the rack and the seat, so a case wouldn't necessarily prevent access to the case. But I can imagine how a case might make it difficult.

Jenetic · Post by **Jenetic** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:47 pm

Op, since you haven't mentioned it & you have mentioned a budget, are you aware that the prices ur seeing are not actually what ur going to pay at least not at most dealers. They tack on several hundred for p.d.I. & freight. Don't mean to burst your bubble & maybe u already know but if not u need to figure anywhere from $500-$1000 over the price ur being quoted for pdi, freight, taxes, DMV & doc fees depending on the dealer & ur location. That $2k quickly becomes $3k to get out the door not to mention gear. Thoughtyou should know this isstandard practice in the scooter industry. On the bright side, Genuine is running a promotion through the end of the year for about $600 worth of free accessories which it sounds like u would want like front & rear racks. Only catch is u have to buy a new pre-2010 model. The thread is here under "dressed for the holidays."

To anyone else, there seems to be a persistant misconception that Genuine's are made in India. Does anyone know why?

Ethan Allison · Post by **Ethan Allison** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:49 pm

Stellas are made in India by LML. Everything else is from PGO in Taiwan.

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:59 pm

I'm sure there are deals to be found if you look around. don't forget used can be good too. As long as the person has the paperwork for it and has kept the scoot maintained. I'd hit up classifieds cos sometimes there's steals to be had, unless you want the warranty....

Jenetic · Post by **Jenetic** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:14 pm

Ethan Allison wrote:Stellas are made in India by LML. Everything else is from PGO in Taiwan.

Got it. Looks like we cross posted too. Great minds and all.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:24 pm

From reading things over, it seems that the best course of action may be to get a used bike to start with. It will cut down on costs and you can find some REALLY great scooter deals now that the weather's getting colder and many fair-weather riders are bound to give up on the bike now that it's cold. A used Buddy 125 can be had for a song, and a 50 for cheaper even then. I've seen quite a few Vino Classic 50's and Zumas for sale locally for under a grand even!

A good friend of mine just bought herself a new scooter (1 1970 150 Super Vespa w/new LML motor) and spent about $4k on it. REAL sharp, but now she's facing the motorcycle safety course, registration, inspection, emissions, insurance, helmet, jacket (which she has bought already), gloves, tools (since it's a vintage scoot), security by means of locks and chains....

She's quickly finding out the MSRP (or quoted resto price in her case) is only half of the total cost of the bike. Even when I bought my current bike, I ended up spending an extra $1500 on a new helmet, insurance, upfit parts and needed taxes and fees to get it legal. You can do it cheaper (not everyone is comfy spending $500 on a helmet for example) but it still will be expensive in a way.

Not trying to burst your bubble! For $2k you can get a real nice low mileage scooter, and if you look REAL hard you may even find a used Vespa 50cc automatic even if that's your thing. A used Buddy, Honda or Yamaha under that price is totally easy to find. And, you can get some good starter gear and still be under target. But, as far as *new* bike? That won't be possible with a 2k max budget at the moment.

jd · Post by jd » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:02 am

You really won't go wrong with any of the options you're considering, but here's another one to think about: A moped.

Tomos has been selling mopeds in the U.S. for a LONG, LONG time. They are cheaper than equivalent scooters, are built in Europe, not China, parts are cheap and very easy to get, and there's a ton of expertise and experience on the Internet regarding them.

The website sucks, but the bikes don't: www.tomosusa.com

My wife and I have owned three different Tomos mopeds over the years, and I still own one, which I refuse to give up because it's a lot more fun to ride than my Buddy 125. We bought scooters because we finally wanted to go above 50cc, but probably would have stayed with mopeds at the 50 cc level.

Oh, and they're MUCH, MUCH easier to work on and repair than any scooter.

jd

2wheelNsanity · Post by **2wheelNsanity** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:10 am

I might have an answer to your question. I found this while looking for a scooter myself. Maybe a dealer near you has some '09 Metropolitans on sale. http://www.chesterfieldvalleypowersport ... ov=1753334

Post by **ericalm** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:31 am

I believe the Piaggio Fly 50 is made by Zongshen in China. They make the 125/150s and the engines for the LXs.

In general, I don't think Piaggio/Vespa parts are so hard to obtain anymore compared to most other scooter companies. All scooter companies have parts issues at time, mostly due to the cost effectiveness of having all parts in the US when scooter sales here are so low. In general, though, parts will be more expensive for the Piaggio. And don't count on getting parts from Italy in the month of August. They're on vacation.

The Fly 50 has some good points, including the HI-PER 4v engine and 12" wheels. I think the seat height is taller than the Buddy's, which may be a problem for some riders. The prices are pretty much the same.

So, which one wis the day? I think you should sit on both, try them on for size and see what kind of deals you can get. I bet you'd be pretty happy on either!

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:58 am

I've ridden a Fly, and frankly it's a good commuter appliance. It's much more roomy as far as space goes than the Buddy and the footdeck is HUGE in comparison. But, to me the Fly is so "normal" it's scary. It's made to commute and not be offensive in ANY way. That's honestly a great thing in a commuter bike, but when I was looking to buy I wanted more soul (I may of bought too much "soul" than I can afford at the moment, but right now I'm still trying to justify my vintage purchase while sneaking in a Buddy).

As for "China" made, there is a WORLD of difference between bikes made in plants in China owned by Honda or Piaggio DIRECTLY, and scooters cranked out of one of the hundreds or thousands of generic light machine plants in China. Those use poorly copied GY6 clone motors and press out the bikes like toasters with very little QC given. They are there to make a quota. And, once their order for those bikes have been filled, they will retool the entire line and go back to making a completely different bike, rickshaw, generator or other motorized device.

The factories that are actually OWNED by companies by the likes of Honda and Piaggio control what goes in and out. They have a certain brand quality that customers expect, and the reason they go to China is to maintain that quality while saving money. Large companies like this know that if quality slacks, then they lose more than future sales... they lose previous customers and future loyalty. More is on the line for them to keep to a standard that is expected, so while it may be made in China, there's more effort put in because these companies will hear about poor quality OUTSIDE of China in their own countries and the countries of their loyal buyers where companies like Piaggio have spent decades building their brand.

Of course, there is a conviction to some about buying (or not buying) from a particular region and letting the company know how they feel about their region of choice for production by the power of their bank account. This has been known to change company policy if enough customers do that. If you feel that strongly against Chinese manufacture in general, this could factor in. But, everyday I see devices of quality made in China and absolute junk made in China as well. So, for me personally, I look at the company who puts their name on the product. If they're willing to sign off on some general crap that uses a brand name to move whatever it can, I walk away. This is why I don't buy Lenovo products anymore: They use the Thinkpad name, but their new machines are NOT the quality that I found in my trusty T40 from years ago. But, I'll buy Samsung devices that use Chinese parts because they're putting out equipment that lasts me a long time and are providing me with great use.

So, in short: Research is needed to see HOW a Chinese product is built. Then, when you figure out WHO is building it and HOW, then you can make a more educated decision

Rippinyarn · Post by **Rippinyarn** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:43 pm

I agree with all of the above, and just want to add that Kymco products are top-notch. My modest Agility 125 was near perfect and was built on the mainland. I like the Agility 50 and really appreciate that funky adjustable seat. I'd gladly have another Kymco, but I agree with Neotrotsky that the PGO scoots (Buddy and Blur) have more personality, and a are a better fit for me.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:17 pm

Thank you for all the comments.

Regarding Scooter price mark up from MSRP, hmm...I didn't know that! I hope this isn't going to be the case with the Honda Metropolitan! Last night I was on the Honda scooter website and sent in a request for a local dealer to send me a quote for the Honda Metropolitan. The Metropolitan seems to be a good scooter with a balance between price, assumed dependability (due to name), and features.

Regarding China-made, yes I understand that China-made doesn't necessarily signal bad. Apple products are often made in China and many if not all of their current products are excellent.

Regarding the Kymco Agility 50cc, I too have heard great things about them. As I said, they were originally my first choice. But, once the dealer of Kymco here locally in Durham said that since Kymco moved their assembly to China they have been seen great issues this past year, I had my doubts. The dealer even steered us AWAY from Kymco Agility to the Genuine Buddy. I'm sure the Agility 50cc made before this past year were great. I'm only afraid of getting a bad one for ones from this year.

I had considered getting a used scooter. If I can be certain the scooter was treated well I have no problems buying used. But I do say I'm so afraid of all kinds of mechanical complications that I'd rather spend a little more for the warranty and newness.

still shifting · Post by **still shifting** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:17 pm

There may be good used scooters around from good brands too. Yamaha C3 comes to mind The Vino and zuma of gourse and has no one mentioned a People 50. There are always a crop of good used scooters coming up every Autumm. R

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:19 pm

Ethan Allison wrote:Hate to break it to you but scooters usually cost around $500 over retail price. Tax is about $100-150 (for a $2000 scooter), destination fees are $150ish (shipping it from the factory to the dealer), unpacking and prep is $100-150, and other stuff (title, plates, etc.) is another $100ish.

By the way, why would a 50cc scooter need a title and plates? I am ignorant in these matters so I am speaking from that position

You see, my assumption is that since a scooter of 50cc or less does not need a license in North Carolina, there is no need to get a license for it, or a title, or plates of any kind. And, it doesn't even need any liability insurance. Essentially in North Carolina, a 50cc scooter is a bicycle!

Am I mistaken in my assumptions and understanding here?

==================

By the way, Honda is offering $200 off for the Honda Metropolitan.
http://powersports.honda.com/2009/metro ... ffers.aspx

Jenetic · Post by **Jenetic** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:54 pm

teabow1 wrote:
Regarding Scooter price mark up from MSRP, hmm...I didn't know that! I hope this isn't going to be the case with the Honda Metropolitan!

It most certainly will be the case. This is an industry-wide practice and has nothing to do with the brand. Also, it would probably be in your best interest not to call it "markup" because dealers may not know what you're talking about and say there isn't any. These are separate charges that will be listed individually on the invoice. It's just like when you buy a car and you see "dealer prep" & "destination charge" on the invoice. It's the exact same thing. On a scooter this is about the only thing you can negotiate for a current year model as most dealers stick to msrp unless they are overstocked or have some other circumstances forcing them to dump stock. At least that's the case in SoCal as scooters are in demand year-round. This is really where the dealer makes most of their profit.

"Am I mistaken in my assumptions and understanding here? "

It sounds like you're making a LOT of assumptions. I don't know the law in NC & these are things you need to research starting with asking the dealer. Ask them for the "out the door" price & get it itemized so you can see exactly what each & every charge is for. Then you can start negotiating. Many states allow you to drive a 50cc scooter without a special license endorsement. This does not necessarily mean the scooter does not need plates or to be registered. As far as title, that is your proof of ownership so I don't know how one would get around that or why one would want to. But again, I don't know the laws in NC. And anyway in most states, laws are bare minimum standards - that's not necessarily what's best or smartest for you.

Regarding not getting insurance, my first reaction is "Are you nuts?!" No offense, but do you understand how dangerous riding is? Even if the law allows you to ride without insurance (which I find hard to believe even for a 50cc) if you have ANY assets at all, like a house, etc. riding without insurance is financial suicide! If you got into an accident, regardless of fault and there was any property damage or injuries, the other party can sue the crap out of you and potentially take everything you have! Insurance for a scooter is not that expensive depending on your location and your personal driving history. There are reports of people getting insurance for less than $100/year. All due respect, I think insurance is a MUST & it's really too cheap not to protect yourself. And I haven't even mentioned how easy it is to steal a scooter. I'm sure you don't want that happening with no insurance.

Again, no offense but it sounds like your total budget to get up & running safely with gear, training, taxes, ins, etc. needs revision if you're going to go new. You might be able to do it used as others have mentioned.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:43 pm

Wow, oops! That's my first reaction after reading the above post

Seems like I might have touched on some nerves here!

Regarding insurance, I'm only saying that it's not required in NC to get it. I'm not saying I won't.

And I have found out (and confirmed with a member on this board) that in NC, you don't need a license, permit, tags, inspection, or whatever with a 50cc scooter. That's what I thought was true (after having done the research before, but had my doubts I was understanding it correctly).

Look, I'm not an experienced scooterist here but I am an experienced bicyclist commuter and tourer of over 15 years. I don't own a car.

To me, a 50cc scooter does have some differences with a bicycle but by and large there are lots of similarities to one when considering how it is operated in traffic.

A bicycle is even easier to steal than a 50cc scooter, so I do know. And basically from what I have learnt (and correct me f I'm wrong) wherever you can park a bicycle you can park a 50cc scooter too. Depending on the area of town, that 50cc scooter of mine (if I do end up owning one) is likely going to be chained to an immovable post or object when I'm shopping or when it's outside.

Regarding the MSRP, I should have been clearer. I know that the total price is going to be higher than the MSRP but what I meant by that is I'm only considering what the scooter sans delivery price, sans tax price would be. I'm very doubtful though that the price after MSRP for that $2,000 scooter is going to be $1,000 more. When I was looking at the Yamaha Zuma yesterday (priced at $2,250) the dealer said the total price is going to be close to $3,000 after everything is considered.

Honda is currently running a $200 off promotion for their Metropolitan. MSRP is $2,000, so beginning price should be at $1,800. That seems like a good thing for that 50cc.

With regards to asking the dealer about "Out-The-Door" quote, that's a good tip. It's good to know there's the term "Out-The-Door".

------
P.S. And a clarification, when I used the word "assumptions" in my posts above, I wasn't "guessing" out of the blue! I had talked to a dealer and found out what I could from the internet. But, just because the dealer said "No you don't need a license for 50cc in North Carolina" and just because some people on the internet said x, y, z about scooter laws in North Carolina doesn't make it true. I've known dealers to be either misinformed or only give a partial answer to my detailed questions. So when I haven't confirmed and double confirmed some new information, I do use the word "assumption" since I don't necessarily know for a fact.

As an example, the scooter dealer I talked to said 35mph is the maximum a non-licensed scooter can go at in North Carolina (i.e., a 50cc). But actually, what I could find out from the internet about North Carolina is it's 30mph, not 35mph. Somewhere, the info is wrong: either the dealer or the NC website.

Okay, hope I don't get...touch any nerves

They're not intentional.

jd · Post by jd » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:14 pm

There's a lot of misinformation about registration and licensing requirements for vehicles under 50 cc, probably because the rules are different in every state. A lot of the dealers don't know what the hell they're talking about, either, as I have learned from experience.

The only information you should trust is that provided by the state in which you live and will be riding.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:25 pm

teabow1 wrote:By the way, why would a 50cc scooter need a title and plates? I am ignorant in these matters so I am speaking from that position You see, my assumption is that since a scooter of 50cc or less does not need a license in North Carolina, there is no need to get a license for it, or a title, or plates of any kind. And, it doesn't even need any liability insurance.

Correct. In many states a 50cc scooter needs to be registered as a "moped" (a token fee with a numbered sticker for ID purposes), but not in NC.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:40 pm

TVB wrote:
teabow1 wrote: In many states a 50cc scooter needs to be registered as a "moped" (a token fee with a numbered sticker for ID purposes), but not in NC.
This is helpful to know. And as I continued to dig deeper, I found out that in places like Boston you need to register a 50cc scooter! Man, that's going to make things like cross-country trips difficult. Okay, so I'm not really planning on scootering cross country but I have dreams of scootering to visit in-laws in Virginia and D.C., but I realise now that I have to investigate what 50cc scooter laws are in Virginia and D.C.

The whole point of me getting a 50cc is precisely so I don't have to get a motorcycle endorsement. I do have a car driver license though.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:44 pm

jd wrote:There's a lot of misinformation about registration and licensing requirements for vehicles under 50 cc, probably because the rules are different in every state. A lot of the dealers don't know what the hell they're talking about, either, as I have learned from experience.

The only information you should trust is that provided by the state in which you live and will be riding.

Indeed, seems to be true. Unfortunately, North Carolina's DMV website doesn't seem to be very well organised and so I've had a difficult time confirming information. I've been able to find third-hand (i.e., not from NC DMV website) what the laws are but I couldn't verify it with the official source. I've resorted to emailing the DMV folks for clarification.

This is a great contrast to ICBC of British Columbia, Canada (equivalent to DMV in the United States with the addition that motor vehicle insurance in BC is all provided by ICBC) where it is was easy and quick to find out what the 50cc scooter regulations are. All clearly laid out in a table format.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:44 pm

Jenetic wrote:It sounds like you're making a LOT of assumptions. I don't know the law in NC....

With all due respect, you're making a lot of assumptions here. If you don't know, please let people who do know answer the question, rather than guessing.

For your information: The laws in many states do not require insurance for 50cc scooters/mopeds. A vehicle title is often not required either, because they are considered bicycles with motors (not "motorcycles"), and the state doesn't get involved in issuing titles for bicycles. Whether these laws make sense or not is certainly debatable, and of course you can express your opinion about whether someone should buy insurance regardless of whether it's required, but that is what the laws commonly say, believe it or not.

heatherkay · Post by **heatherkay** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:12 pm

teabow1 wrote:The whole point of me getting a 50cc is precisely so I don't have to get a motorcycle endorsement. I do have a car driver license though.

I have to say that, as someone who was a bicycle commuter here in Kansas, getting the motorcycle endorsement was (laughably) easy. So it's probably something you should consider getting anyway. YMMV, so check out the requirements in NC.

I went in and took the written test before I picked up the scooter at the dealer. There is MSF handbook that many states use as their manual. Most of it is common sense stuff that you should probably know anyway if you're going to ride on the roads, and much of it is stuff that you probably already know. For example, ride in the tire ruts and make sure to watch out for slick spots when it first starts to rain.

In Kansas, you get a learner's permit after you take the written test, which allows you to ride solo with some restrictions (for example, you can't ride after dark). Some states do require that you ride with an experience rider if you just have a permit.

After a couple of months of careful riding, I went in and took the riding test. It consisted of riding slowly in a straight line to test balance (much easier than an equivalent task on a bike). I had to weave between cones, again, very easy on the scooter. And I had to make a normal stop, not even a quick stop.

Now, I understand that there are many other skills that are valuable and necessary to be a safe rider. But I didn't have to demonstrate many of them to get the license in Kansas.

jd · Post by jd » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:23 pm

teabow1 wrote:...I realise now that I have to investigate what 50cc scooter laws are in Virginia and D.C.

You probably don't.

States have reciprocity for registration requirements. Just carry a copy of your state's registration requirements with you and you'll be fine. I've ridden in multiple states with riders from multiple states, and everyone just needs to make sure that their bikes are legal in their home states.

Licensing requirements are state-specific, however. You need to pay attention to each state's rules for driver's license requirements, age, helmets, etc., as you cross borders.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:42 pm

heatherkay wrote:
teabow1 wrote: I have to say that, as someone who was a bicycle commuter here in Kansas, getting the motorcycle endorsement was (laughably) easy. So it's probably something you should consider getting anyway. YMMV, so check out the requirements in NC.
Wow! Your description of it does sound easy, especially since many greater than 50cc scooters are automatic transmission. Hmmm...!

Well, maybe one thing at a time. First start with the 50cc and then graduate to 150cc?? With highway speeds comes the necessity of having more experience (it would seem) to ride safely on a motorised two-wheel

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:43 pm

jd wrote:
teabow1 wrote:...I realise now that I have to investigate what 50cc scooter laws are in Virginia and D.C.
You probably don't.

States have reciprocity for registration requirements. Just carry a copy of your state's registration requirements with you and you'll be fine. I've ridden in multiple states with riders from multiple states, and everyone just needs to make sure that their bikes are legal in their home states.

Licensing requirements are state-specific, however. You need to pay attention to each state's rules for driver's license requirements, age, helmets, etc., as you cross borders.

Hmmm...but in North Carolina (as I understand) we don't need to register a 50cc scooter. So I'd essentially be scootering around in NC without any license or registration. If Virginia requires their in-state scooters to have a registration, would I then be illegal in Virginia if my NC scooter enters their territory?

so confusing!

jd · Post by jd » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:19 pm

teabow1 wrote:
jd wrote:
teabow1 wrote:...I realise now that I have to investigate what 50cc scooter laws are in Virginia and D.C.
You probably don't.

States have reciprocity for registration requirements. Just carry a copy of your state's registration requirements with you and you'll be fine. I've ridden in multiple states with riders from multiple states, and everyone just needs to make sure that their bikes are legal in their home states.

Licensing requirements are state-specific, however. You need to pay attention to each state's rules for driver's license requirements, age, helmets, etc., as you cross borders.
Hmmm...but in North Carolina (as I understand) we don't need to register a 50cc scooter. So I'd essentially be scootering around in NC without any license or registration. If Virginia requires their in-state scooters to have a registration, would I then be illegal in Virginia if my NC scooter enters their territory?

so confusing!

Generally not. Just bring a copy of your state's registration rules regarding mopeds.

That said, I have a friend in Connecticut (that also does not require registration of small bikes) who has put a "MOPED" license plate on his bike because he rides out of state frequently. It doesn't have any legal standing, but he believes it might help him avoid some problems with out-of-state constabulary. BTW, the cops have better things to do than bother mopedsters and scooterists. If you're riding responsibly, obeying the law and wearing a helmet (even if they don't require one), cops just aren't going to bother you. I've ridden lots of miles in lots of states (and Ontario) and never been bothered by the police.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:21 pm

teabow1 wrote:Hmmm...but in North Carolina (as I understand) we don't need to register a 50cc scooter. So I'd essentially be scootering around in NC without any license or registration. If Virginia requires their in-state scooters to have a registration, would I then be illegal in Virginia if my NC scooter enters their territory?

You might get pulled over, but if you explain to the officer that you're a NC resident (and prove it with your driver licence) where registration isn't required, you'll probably be OK.

I took my scooter into Ontario last year, where provincial laws require a 50cc scooter to be registered as a "low power motorcycle" or summat. I just had my Michigan "moped" sticker, but the Canadian border guards didn't give me any trouble over it. (The US border guards tried unsuccessfully to run my moped registration number through their vehicle registration system, but that was just because they didn't know what else to do with me.)

But as jd says, you'll still need to abide by the local state laws that apply to the operation of the scooter, which might include having a driver licence, wearing a helmet, no passengers, etc.

Jenetic · Post by **Jenetic** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:28 am

TVB wrote:
Jenetic wrote:It sounds like you're making a LOT of assumptions. I don't know the law in NC....
With all due respect, you're making a lot of assumptions here. If you don't know, please let people who do know answer the question, rather than guessing.

For your information: The laws in many states do not require insurance for 50cc scooters/mopeds. A vehicle title is often not required either, because they are considered bicycles with motors (not "motorcycles"), and the state doesn't get involved in issuing titles for bicycles. Whether these laws make sense or not is certainly debatable, and of course you can express your opinion about whether someone should buy insurance regardless of whether it's required, but that is what the laws commonly say, believe it or not.

I never said the law said any different. In fact, I specifically said I didn't know the law in NC as you quoted. I merely expressed my opinion that whether required by law or not IMHO it's crazy not to have insurance. Absolutely nothing in there about what I think the law is or should be.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:05 am

(not worth trying)

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:09 am

Anytime I see a fly going through my dealer, there is a horror story attached to it. They simply don't seem to be all that good as far as build quality.
The buddy on the other hand seems to be a bulletproof machine, both mechanically and operationally. I have seen plenty of buddies being dropped and escaping with very minor cosmetic damage (mostly the headlight bezel and the front cowl) where a scooter with a different geometry would have been covered in scratches and need new/repainted panels.

To me the buddy wins hands down, no contest.

Jenetic · Post by **Jenetic** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:17 am

TVB wrote:
Jenetic wrote:I never said the law said any different.
Right, you admitted that you didn't know, then told us that you couldn't believe the law would say... what the law says.

This is what I wrote:

"Even if the law allows you to ride without insurance (which I find hard to believe even for a 50cc) "

Saying "...I find it hard to believe..." is completely different from saying I couldn't believe. I did indeed find it difficult to believe. Nothing in there says I don't believe or that I know otherwise OR that I think the op is mistaken.

Go give someone else a hard time. I did nothing but express my opinion on insurance in general and stated repeatedly throughout the post that I did not know the law in NC and was not answering from that perspective. Last time I checked, this was a forum for conversation. Both fact & opinion.

Roose Hurro · Post by **Roose Hurro** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:57 am

teabow1 wrote:Heatherkay, thanks for the pointer to the Vino Classic! My husband and I just went to another dealer today to look at scooters. First time I saw a Piaggio Fly and my that thing is a little big for my taste! I was a bit put off by the size of the thing. It looks like a regular size motorcycle! So, I'm beginning to think maybe I won't consider the Piaggio Fly as an option.

We did see a Yamaha Zume (2011 model that comes with fuel injection and is 4-stroke)! It looked great and the fit seemed very well put. The only issue was the price is ANOTHER notch above what I wanted! We had already gone from $1,500 (Kymco Agility) to $2,000 to accomodate the possiblity of Genuine Buddy. Raising it another $500 to accomodate the possibility of Yamaha Zuma (total $2,500) was not attractive.

We went home and just discovered the Vino Classic which is lower in price! So now I'm going to do some research on that, especially the 2010 models that are around $2,100.

We are still considering the Geunine Buddy 50cc though.

Well, since you have access to a Yamaha dealer, why not check out a C3?

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/produ ... /home.aspx

And here's a review: http://www.justgottascoot.com/yamahac3.htm

Aaand a video review: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYLYEg8O674

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:29 am

Jenetic wrote:
teabow1 wrote:Regarding Scooter price mark up from MSRP, hmm...I didn't know that! I hope this isn't going to be the case with the Honda Metropolitan!
It most certainly will be the case. This is an industry-wide practice and has nothing to do with the brand. Also, it would probably be in your best interest not to call it "markup" because dealers may not know what you're talking about and say there isn't any. These are separate charges that will be listed individually on the invoice. It's just like when you buy a car and you see "dealer prep" & "destination charge" on the invoice. It's the exact same thing. On a scooter this is about the only thing you can negotiate for a current year model as most dealers stick to msrp unless they are overstocked or have some other circumstances forcing them to dump stock. At least that's the case in SoCal as scooters are in demand year-round. This is really where the dealer makes most of their profit.

Dealer markup on scooters is actually pretty low, though it varies by make. It's actually quite low for Piaggios and Vespas. The profitability on scooter sales is pretty bad overall. This is very different from cars and even motorcycles.

In addition, many dealers don't own their stock but pay for it via flooring plans—i.e., credit. They're paying interest on every scooter that doesn't sell. This comes right out of their margin. This is also a big part of why so many dealers have closed over the past 2 years.

Dealers make most of their money on accessories, parts and service.

The differences on MSRP and OTD (out the door) vary but there are some flat charges. In CA, OTD includes registration and taxes, which the buyer pays themselves in many other states. The shipping charges are charged to the dealer by the manufacturer. This also varies by state.

For the most part, the only charge the dealer has any control/wiggle room on (without sacrificing making a profit on the sale) is PDI (or prep) fees. Some (few) add an additional fee for, um, whatever. Other dealers will list all charges on their price tags, including the final OTD price. It's a good practice.

Always ask for an itemized list of what the dealer is charging. I hate to say it but there are a few unscrupulous dealers out there padding charges.

Until 2010, it was very rare to see any discounts on scooters. After sales dropped calamitously in 2009, there was little reason to drop prices and many manufacturers wouldn't allow dealers to do it. There was so much stock left when gas prices dropped and and the recession hit that manufacturers were offering the scooters to dealers at lower prices and selling them for less.

SO, it's not like (most) dealers are trying to screw you or pull a fast one. Ask for a list of fees. Do the math. And know that most scooter dealers—even some of the biggest ones in the country—are barely getting by right now. Sales have risen, but are still uneven and below '07 levels.

You may get a deal, but don't expect or demand one. You've a better chance of getting a deal on accessories or gear when you buy. If you don't get a deal it's not because you're getting hosed. Probably.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:41 am

Also, one thing to consider with the Honda: Prep, freight, and other dealer fees tend to be the MOST expensive with Honda in my experience. Not trying to be down on them, because Honda by all accounts DOES make the most reliable bike on the road no matter what it is (The only reason I was eyeing the 250R Fireblade as a graduation gift to myself next year... it's *almost* practical!). The PCX I was looking at was $3300, which is not bad at all for how much bike you get. But, after taxes, fees, freight and prep the total was around $4100!!! Granted, with a Honda you just fill it and go, and that's the extent of your worry, but it was a few hundred more than I wanted. Then again, I was looking for particular types of scooters, and used didn't bother me since I enjoy wrenching. Looking back I perhaps should've bit on that since my bike was supposed to be my main transport, but with school, finances and what not I've been stealing my wife's Vitara way too often

What's interesting is that the dealer with the least associated fees from what I've heard and my experience is Genuine! Their Buddy 125 cost $2600, and with all taxes and fees only came out to $3100 OTD, which was right in my sweet spot. I *should* of bit, but my P200e showed up on Craigslist and passion spoke before logic... I imagine the 50cc would run a bit less due to taxes. Dare I say, if you get around $300 in fees on a 50cc you're doing pretty good (at least by Arizona standards. They include pate fees since anything over 30mph requires full motorbike plates and emissions fees no matter what)

As for insurance: I am a 32 year old married male with one ticket. I do get a labor union discount, college grad discount, multi owner policy discount and my bike is quite a bit older, but in total I pay $100 a year for liability with under/un-insured motorist at $25k/$50k. That is a very small amount to pay for total piece of mind. That also means if I get whacked by an uninsured motorist, *that* guy is in a world of legal hurt and no loop-hole is going to bite me in the butt. After getting hit by a driver with no documents, no license and no proof of who owned the car he was driving, I saw just how valuable the stuff is. I would of gone full coverage with a nice new bike like a Piaggio LX150, but my scooter is vintage and they would NEVER repair it to spec for what it costs and would just total it out, so it's not worth it.

I know it's a TON to take in, but don't let that get you down! If it makes you feel better, in an effort to get stable transport for my family I ended up dropping $10k in one month, and we STILL have to make payments on her car

but at least we own the scooter outright. Wheels are expensive, but at least you're choosing the cheapest option.

Jenetic · Post by **Jenetic** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:03 am

neotrotsky wrote:
As for insurance: I am a 32 year old married male with one ticket. I do get a labor union discount, college grad discount, multi owner policy discount and my bike is quite a bit older, but in total I pay $100 a year for liability with under/un-insured motorist at $25k/$50k.

Would you mind sharing who your insurance company is? That's a great rate. I realize it's dependent on one's own record, location & various discounts but it sounds like a good place to start at least for a quote.

The lowest pdi & freight I've found so far on a Buddy in SoCal is $425. Add in tax & dmv fees and it's close to $800 total over msrp. One Vespa dealer wants $690 just for pdi & freight on an LX or S not even one of the higher end models which I think is outrageous! My guess is in other areas especially outside of CA, pdi & freight are much lower as dealer overhead is much lower. It's hard to imagine finding any dealer here who would do pdi & freight for anywhere near $300, but I'm gonna try!

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:39 pm

Jenetic wrote:Saying "...I find it hard to believe..." is completely different from saying I couldn't believe.

The two phrases are often used to mean the same thing, and given the condescending "Are you nuts?!" tone of your remarks, that's how it read to me.

Last time I checked, this was a forum for conversation. Both fact & opinion.

It's also about treating people with respect, and I found your remarks insulting. (Hint: When you have to start littering your comments with "no offense" and "with all due respect" disclaimers, that's a warning sign.)

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:41 pm

Roose Hurro wrote:
teabow1 wrote:]

Well, since you have access to a Yamaha dealer, why not check out a C3?

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/produ ... /home.aspx

And here's a review: http://www.justgottascoot.com/yamahac3.htm

Aaand a video review: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYLYEg8O674
Thanks! My husband suggested it and I thought the specs are really good but it's really ugly! I'd feel like I'm a delivery guy on that

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:50 pm

ericalm wrote: Dealer markup on scooters is actually pretty low, though it varies by make. It's actually quite low for Piaggios and Vespas. The profitability on scooter sales is pretty bad overall. This is very different from cars and even motorcycles. .... .

Very helpful advice on what one can expect to negotiate and about an itemised list.

I was at a local dealer the other day and he couldn't even bother to find out for us if the Fly could take a top rack and didn't offer to demonstrate the storage space of the Yamaha Zuma when I asked about it becaue it was locked. I wonder if such poor service is in part due to scooter customers being less valuable?

I was at another dealer and that guy was so helpful and spent a lot of time answering our questions and demonstrating. He's the local Genuine dealer. I'm not sure he deals in Honda since the other local dealer does. I'm hoping he does. I'm awaiting his reply on that.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:59 pm

neotrotsky wrote:....

I know it's a TON to take in, but don't let that get you down! If it makes you feel better, in an effort to get stable transport for my family I ended up dropping $10k in one month, and we STILL have to make payments on her car but at least we own the scooter outright. Wheels are expensive, but at least you're choosing the cheapest option.

Thanks for the advice on insurance. It's totally worth investigating, especially if it's only couple hundred bucks a year.

Wheels are expensive. My touring bicycle, my sole mode of transport, cost me about $1,400. Yes, a bicycle

That was 15 years ago and it still "runs" because I run. LOL. It's a Trek 520 stock except for the Shimano shifters and clipless pedals. Then of course there are the panniers (I have four Ortleibs), clothing, bike shoes, pump, tools which are all on top of the $1,400.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:03 pm

Jenetic wrote:
neotrotsky wrote:
.... My guess is in other areas especially outside of CA, pdi & freight are much lower as dealer overhead is much lower. It's hard to imagine finding any dealer here who would do pdi & freight for anywhere near $300, but I'm gonna try!
You could be right. I don't know about vehicles here, but regular sales tax is very low here. I was shocked. You see, six months ago I moved from San Francisco to Durham/Raleigh, NC.