Modern Buddy

Hello good folks of Modern Buddy,
I'm a frequent lurker and infrequent poster with a question for the collective genius of this group.

Short version:
Will a battery that is on its last legs cause longer crank times and difficulties with kick-starting?

Long version with details:
I have a 2009 Buddy 125 with just under 10K miles. Over the past couple of weeks, the scooter has become harder to start. It used to take just a couple of seconds on the starter to roar to life. Now it sometimes takes several attempts to start, and sometimes I have to try to kick-start it. Kick-starting used to be much easier too. This morning everything failed and I had to drive (blech).
The only other symptom is a slightly lower idle and it will occasionally feel like it's about to die when coming to a stop. I just read about how to adjust the idle, and I will do that tonight. Once running, it seems just fine with no drop in power. I replaced the spark plug with an iridium plug. The old one looked fine and the new one didn't make a noticeable difference. The air filter looks clean.

Do I just need a new battery? What other things should I check? It seems odd that a dying battery would make it hard-to-impossible to kick-start.

Thanks!

Yes. If you haven't replaced the original battery yet on an '09 with 10k and in a cold climate, that's the first thing I would do. There's a stronger battery that fits the Buddy and I'd recommend it but I don't remember what I wound up getting. If I weren't so freaking lazy, I'd go check.

A dying battery can certainly give the electric starter problems, but it shouldn't have any impact at all on kickstarting; you should be able to kickstart the scooter even without a battery. I have no idea what the problem is, but I'm pretty sure that's what it isn't.

When's the last time you had the valves adjusted? I would suspect this first from what you're describing.

Then check the carb, make sure it's clean, especially the pilot jet and make sure the auto enricher is working (electric choke).

If you find that you scooter is taking longer and longer and longer to start, (and then one day does not start at all) then it is you stator. When my stator started going bad the scooter would crank away for longer and longer trying to start and then one day it was all crank, no start. Before the stator went south it was always instant start. If this does turn out to be the trouble it is a fairly easy fix to replace the stator. Once done your scooter will be back to normal.

gitsum79 wrote:When's the last time you had the valves adjusted? I would suspect this first from what you're describing.

Then check the carb, make sure it's clean, especially the pilot jet and make sure the auto enricher is working (electric choke).

What are valves? J/K. I used to check them back in the day when you could do your own car maintenance. I just looked over the awesome post in the tech library and will get right on it.

Thanks!

Skootz Kabootz wrote:If you find that you scooter is taking longer and longer and longer to start, (and then one day does not start at all) then it is you stator. When my stator started going bad the scooter would crank away for longer and longer trying to start and then one day it was all crank, no start. Before the stator went south it was always instant start. If this does turn out to be the trouble it is a fairly easy fix to replace the stator. Once done your scooter will be back to normal.

Cool - sounds like exactly my problem. That, and the valves, and the battery should take care of it. It's supposed to snow tomorrow anyway, so I'll have some downtime to get everything in tip-top shape.

Thanks for the great advice everyone!

Skootz Kabootz wrote:If you find that you scooter is taking longer and longer and longer to start, (and then one day does not start at all) then it is you stator. When my stator started going bad the scooter would crank away for longer and longer trying to start and then one day it was all crank, no start. Before the stator went south it was always instant start. If this does turn out to be the trouble it is a fairly easy fix to replace the stator. Once done your scooter will be back to normal.

Mine exhibited these same problems and was my starter. I tried to trouble shoot it on my own for a while- checking the battery, connections, switch, fuses, everything. Then one day the electric start was no more- wouldn't even crank at all (that's when I thought I had a bad switch). I finally gave up and took it in and it was the starter.

jmazza wrote:

Skootz Kabootz wrote:If you find that you scooter is taking longer and longer and longer to start, (and then one day does not start at all) then it is you stator. When my stator started going bad the scooter would crank away for longer and longer trying to start and then one day it was all crank, no start. Before the stator went south it was always instant start. If this does turn out to be the trouble it is a fairly easy fix to replace the stator. Once done your scooter will be back to normal.

Mine exhibited these same problems and was my starter. I tried to trouble shoot it on my own for a while- checking the battery, connections, switch, fuses, everything. Then one day the electric start was no more- wouldn't even crank at all (that's when I thought I had a bad switch). I finally gave up and took it in and it was the starter.

I guess that is the other way it could go. Mine never stopped cranking. Just stopped starting

Skootz Kabootz wrote:

jmazza wrote:

Skootz Kabootz wrote:If you find that you scooter is taking longer and longer and longer to start, (and then one day does not start at all) then it is you stator. When my stator started going bad the scooter would crank away for longer and longer trying to start and then one day it was all crank, no start. Before the stator went south it was always instant start. If this does turn out to be the trouble it is a fairly easy fix to replace the stator. Once done your scooter will be back to normal.

Mine exhibited these same problems and was my starter. I tried to trouble shoot it on my own for a while- checking the battery, connections, switch, fuses, everything. Then one day the electric start was no more- wouldn't even crank at all (that's when I thought I had a bad switch). I finally gave up and took it in and it was the starter.

I guess that is the other way it could go. Mine never stopped cranking. Just stopped starting

Yeah that was the only difference I saw! These kinds of problems are frustrating- for a while I was convinced that not only was the electric starter going but that it was getting harder to kickstart as well (like the OP says). I was thinking all kinds of engine problems but I think the kickstart issues were all in my head.

The thing is, it's also possible you have more than one problem developing, maybe even three problems,. You may well need a battery and a starter and a valve adjustment. I'd get the battery tested at a battery store first. See what the scoop is there. If you swap out your battery for a new one, that should help your starting problems. If it's still balky about starting, but the starter doesn't seem sick then check your valve clearances. If your starter acts sick with a new battery, see jmazza's post above. You used to do that on a car so it shouldn't be a big deal to do it on the Buddy motor.

Well one thing, if it is the stator and it behaves like mine, it will be dead for good very soon. Then you'll know

jrsjr wrote:The thing is, it's also possible you have more than one problem developing, maybe even three problems,. You may well need a battery and a starter and a valve adjustment. I'd get the battery tested at a battery store first. See what the scoop is there. If you swap out your battery for a new one, that should help your starting problems. If it's still balky about starting, but the starter doesn't seem sick then check your valve clearances. If your starter acts sick with a new battery, see jmazza's post above. You used to do that on a car so it shouldn't be a big deal to do it on the Buddy motor.

Right!

The thing to do in a situation like this is go from the easiest thing to deal with/eliminate and escalate from there. These symptoms can be caused by several issues. It's not like every time someone coughs, it's tuberculosis. Battery could by dying; start with that. It might be due to the weather if it's been cold, or maybe you're not riding long enough to charge it. Make sure your terminals are clean and the cables look good. Check the voltage and get it charged. Also, charging the battery will help diagnose other possible issues.

(Also remember that many attempts to start the engine without success will run the battery down again pretty fast.)

Next would be the stator. If you have a multimeter, you can check voltage at the stator and at the battery. Check the battery while revving the scooter, too (stand on the center stand to steady it; never do this on kickstand!). Under load, the voltage from a charged battery should read 13.5-14.5 volts or thereabouts, IIRC. If it's weaker, very well could be the stator.

If the stator's good, move on to the starter.

I'd also check the wiring harness for any obvious weak points. Look for worn insulation or places where the wire may have been pinched in a bad way, possibly around/beneath the underseat storage.

Other possibility: If the weather's changes, your air fuel/mix may need adjustment. Cold weather, parts contract, things get out of whack.

Then move on to valves and jets if necessary.

ALL good advice, but you ALL forgot the FIRST THING...Put a new spark plug in it. Buddy's rarely need one, but it is ALWAYS the weakest link in any motor. Do that and the battery first. Then go from there

viney266 wrote:ALL good advice, but you ALL forgot the FIRST THING...Put a new spark plug in it. Buddy's rarely need one, but it is ALWAYS the weakest link in any motor. Do that and the battery first. Then go from there

True! I'd probably check the battery first, but I like playing with my multimeter.

viney266 wrote:ALL good advice, but you ALL forgot the FIRST THING...Put a new spark plug in it. Buddy's rarely need one, but it is ALWAYS the weakest link in any motor. Do that and the battery first. Then go from there

I've got a 2009 with 23K and original battery. Now if I let it sit more than a week, it wants to play hard to start but the ONLY time my little blue scoot wouldn't start it was a spark plug cap that wasn't holding onto the spark plug any more. Spark plugs are cheap and easy to change yourself. +1 to starting there

Just to add a bit of 'folksy humor' "Batteries are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get"
It just depends on........... I have no clue what.
In my now nearly 18 year old Jeep, I've had four (4) batteries, the first one (factory) lasted exactly three years, the second one lasted 5 years, the third one lasted NINE years!! Now the fourth one is six months old and just about shot!!!

I've had my Buddy just shy of three years, 12000 miles, the battery is still strong and I've not used a tender, (yet)

Batteries are easy to figure out. Keep them 100% charged at all times and keep them at 77 degrees F or colder for maximum life. Anything you do to them outside of that will reduce their life span.
Deep discharges are bad.
Waiting to recharge is bad.
Over charge is bad.
Under charge is bad.
Heat is bad.
Combine any of the above and it's worse. No magic. It's just lead and acid. There is some know how needed in making a good battery, but most of the major names have it down.

jijifer wrote:

viney266 wrote:ALL good advice, but you ALL forgot the FIRST THING...Put a new spark plug in it. Buddy's rarely need one, but it is ALWAYS the weakest link in any motor. Do that and the battery first. Then go from there

I've got a 2009 with 23K and original battery. Now if I let it sit more than a week, it wants to play hard to start but the ONLY time my little blue scoot wouldn't start it was a spark plug cap that wasn't holding onto the spark plug any more. Spark plugs are cheap and easy to change yourself. +1 to starting there

The OP already told us he changed to a new Iridium plug in his original post...

"I replaced the spark plug with an iridium plug. The old one looked fine and the new one didn't make a noticeable difference."

KABarash wrote: I've had my Buddy just shy of three years, 12000 miles, the battery is still strong and I've not used a tender, (yet)

OK..... So I doth speak too soon, (maybe I jinxed matters) this evening when coming out from work, (2300) 'Simon' didn't want to to start up!!!
I cranked the starter a few moments and the battery seemed to just about NOT want to do anything.....

BUT however, I did successfully kick start it for the first time since I've had it!!!

Cold temps slow down the chemical reaction inside a battery. Weak batteries will provide less cranking amps. If yours has been kept charged, it's trying to tell you that it's getting old. Give it a charge and see if it was just low. If it does it again, it's time for a new battery.

Lotrat wrote:Cold temps slow down the chemical reaction inside a battery. Weak batteries will provide less cranking amps. If yours has been kept charged, it's trying to tell you that it's getting old. Give it a charge and see if it was just low. If it does it again, it's time for a new battery.

Exactly what went through my mind, wasn't too upset over the situation knowing the age of the battery. It wasn't the coldest I had had the scoot out and needed to start it but however, it was the first time I had an issue (especially after bragging about it) I was slightly bummed.
Didn't even attempt to take it out today as it was raining, I'm planning to purchase a tender this weekend, something I've been putting off too long.....

OK so, I went out today and bought a 'Tender Jr.' after my non-start issue the other night I thought I'd put off too long.
Question is now, even though the battery didn't have the necessary juice to start the 'tender' had gone 'green light' within thirty minutes, do I have a battery in need of replacement? (I wouldn't doubt it though, original purchase of the scoot was spring '08.)

KABarash wrote:OK so, I went out today and bought a 'Tender Jr.' after my non-start issue the other night I thought I'd put off too long.
Question is now, even though the battery didn't have the necessary juice to start the 'tender' had gone 'green light' within thirty minutes, do I have a battery in need of replacement? (I wouldn't doubt it though, original purchase of the scoot was spring '08.)

It's hard to say based on the Battery Tender Jr thing. That's what my supposedly good battery does when I hook it to the Battery Tender Jr after a few days of sitting off the Tender. On the other hand, your battery is 3+ years old. It owes you nothing. If it were mine, I'd swap it out just to have the peace of mind. My logic being as follows: It's not going to last forever. Why wait until it dies and inconveniences you before you swap it out? I am well aware that there are people who vehemently disagree with me on this and I fully respect their right to be wrong.

I'm in this same boat with my wife's scooter. She doesn't ride it and the battery died sometime over the summer (got out of the tendering habit as I was riding my scooter & motorcycle). Since then I had been throwing it on the tender regularly thinking it would fire up without issue. Well today I went to start it and was greated with a nice click of the starter solenoid despite having it on the tender a couple days earlier. It fired right up first kick of the kick starter though. So I'm thinking battery. I'll swap it with mine to be sure.

KABarash wrote:OK so, I went out today and bought a 'Tender Jr.' after my non-start issue the other night I thought I'd put off too long.
Question is now, even though the battery didn't have the necessary juice to start the 'tender' had gone 'green light' within thirty minutes, do I have a battery in need of replacement? (I wouldn't doubt it though, original purchase of the scoot was spring '08.)

The light on the tender just indicates that the battery has reached float charge level and is no longer pulling current. It doesn't test the actual capacity of the battery. You'll need a volt meter on the battery while cranking the starter. If the battery drops below 10.5 volts within 15 seconds, then it's shot.

TVB wrote:A dying battery can certainly give the electric starter problems, but it shouldn't have any impact at all on kickstarting; you should be able to kickstart the scooter even without a battery. I have no idea what the problem is, but I'm pretty sure that's what it isn't.

Don't know if the Blur electrical system is different than a Buddy's, but mine won't kickstart under any circumstances, good battery or not. It will start everytime with the electric start though. Very strange. Nothing to do with the original OP's question, but still strange...

Kick starting is a lost art. I spent the day in the desert with my kids and they couldn't get the 4 stroke motor kick started all day... I ran between bikes to kick start them when needed.

#1 - You need to hold the brake lever when kick starting. I always forget this when kicking a scoot. It's not natural. (ignore this I was wrong)
#2 - Turn the motor with the kick lever until you feel some resistance. This is the point you want to kick it. Don't just kick it without getting to this point unless you want the exercise.
#3 - Kick with authority.
#4 - Do what ever you do with the throttle when you hit the starter. If you give it a little gas, hold it open, crack it while cranking, or other then do the same when you kick start it.

Hey gang,
general update time. I installed the new battery this weekend. After this post, although I knew it needed to be replaced, I didn't really think it was causing my starting problems. I talked it over with the wonderful folks at Sportique here in Denver. They thought it would be unlikely that the valves were out of adjustment. They said they sometimes check them with routine maintenance, but have never seen a Buddy with 10K miles that needed it.
They are convinced that the carburetor needs to be cleaned. I tried to half-ass it and just spray cleaner in the carb without taking it off. It started! Yesterday. This morning, not so much. It finally did, but there is obviously still a problem. It looks the next step is to follow the very helpful guides in the Technical Library from ScooterTrash and JettaKnight to disassemble and thoroughly clean it out. Then, replace the starter? Tune in next week for the exciting conclusion!

303mike wrote:Hey gang,
general update time. I installed the new battery this weekend. After this post, although I knew it needed to be replaced, I didn't really think it was causing my starting problems. I talked it over with the wonderful folks at Sportique here in Denver. They thought it would be unlikely that the valves were out of adjustment. They said they sometimes check them with routine maintenance, but have never seen a Buddy with 10K miles that needed it.
They are convinced that the carburetor needs to be cleaned. I tried to half-ass it and just spray cleaner in the carb without taking it off. It started! Yesterday. This morning, not so much. It finally did, but there is obviously still a problem. It looks the next step is to follow the very helpful guides in the Technical Library from ScooterTrash and JettaKnight to disassemble and thoroughly clean it out. Then, replace the starter? Tune in next week for the exciting conclusion!

Have you tried running SeaFoam through? It will clean up minor carb/jet/valve issues and is a lot easier than pulling it apart!

You guys must own stock in Seafoam... I'd use the $1.98 tuneup method before spending money on a can of Seafoam. My scoot is still new so I may eat those words, but I have had my share of carbureted vehicles and have never bought the stuff. Never even heard of it being used til I joined MB.

$1.98 Tune Up... use at your own risk.
Before you pull the carb apart, try and get the motor started. You'll need to remove the air cleaner for this. Get the revs up and slap your palm over the intake to the carb. Remove your hand before it dies. Rev it up until it clears and do it again. You may need to do it a few times. You'll get a nice palm hickey, but the vacuum being created will also dislodge any junk in the carb passages without having to take it apart. Works on cars, motorcycles, and lawn mowers. I haven't had to try it on a scooter yet, but the the science behind the method is sound. All it takes is a spec of crud to mess up a carb and an additive isn't going to remove it right away if ever. If this doesn't cure your problem, you've wasted nothing.

303,

OK, your carb-cleaner efforts (runs briefly while burning the cleaner) tell us that the valves are probably not the culprit, and that you've got spark. It seems like the carb is passing air and fuel (in the form of your cleaning spray) to the manifold and it's running, so the 'top' half of the carb is _probably_ good.

It's starting to sound like a fuel delivery problem, which can be either (a) no fuel getting from tank to carb (via the vacuum-operated cutoff valve), or (b) clogged jets not admitting fuel from the bottom of the carb up to the top to be mixed with air and passed along to the cylinder.

The Usual Suspect is a blocked jet - bits of crud seem to happen more frequently than an actual failure of the fuel valve. The tech section shows how to remove the jets and clean 'em up. When you open the drain screw at the bottom of the carb, you should get gas dripping out the drain hose. This is a good sign, meaning that the fuel valve is probably working OK.

If no fuel comes out, the carb bowl is likely empty and the valve under the tank may be blocked up. There are two hoses between the carb and the valve. The one with the fuel filter on it carries the gas from the valve to th carb. The other is a vacuum line that closes that valve when the engine isn't running (no vacuum from the carburetor. With the carb drain screw open, pull the vac hose off the carb and suck on it, or use a vacuum pump. Not sure how many mm's of vacuum are needed, truthfully. No gas will come out into your mouth, I promise. This should open the valve and you should get some drippage. This should verify that the valve is working.

It could also be a stuck float in the bowl, as this float operates a little valve, but I don't have a feel for whether this is a common point of failure in the Buddy carb.

Keep us informed.....

Lotrat wrote:#1 - You need to hold the brake lever when kick starting. I always forget this when kicking a scoot. It's not natural.

No you don't on the Bud, do you? It's been so long since I kick-started Franz, but I'm quite sure I don't hold the brake. Yeah, I don't. I lean on my milkcrate to get the rear wheel on the ground, pump until I get to the top, and then "kick with authority" (I like your phrase). Right?

Lotrat wrote:You guys must own stock in Seafoam... I'd use the $1.98 tuneup method before spending money on a can of Seafoam. My scoot is still new so I may eat those words, but I have had my share of carbureted vehicles and have never bought the stuff. Never even heard of it being used til I joined MB.

$1.98 Tune Up... use at your own risk.
Before you pull the carb apart, try and get the motor started. You'll need to remove the air cleaner for this. Get the revs up and slap your palm over the intake to the carb. Remove your hand before it dies. Rev it up until it clears and do it again. You may need to do it a few times. You'll get a nice palm hickey, but the vacuum being created will also dislodge any junk in the carb passages without having to take it apart. Works on cars, motorcycles, and lawn mowers. I haven't had to try it on a scooter yet, but the the science behind the method is sound. All it takes is a spec of crud to mess up a carb and an additive isn't going to remove it right away if ever. If this doesn't cure your problem, you've wasted nothing.

For most people, pouring 2oz. from a $5 can of Sea Foam on the chance that it might work is much easier and more convenient than taking anything off of anything. It's the "if you're not ready to do the work yourself or pay to take it to the shop" option!

If the scooter won't start or idle at all, there's very little (meaning: none) chance Sea Foam will do a lick of good. If it's running/idling poorly, it can help.

siobhan wrote:

Lotrat wrote:#1 - You need to hold the brake lever when kick starting. I always forget this when kicking a scoot. It's not natural.

No you don't on the Bud, do you? It's been so long since I kick-started Franz, but I'm quite sure I don't hold the brake. Yeah, I don't. I lean on my milkcrate to get the rear wheel on the ground, pump until I get to the top, and then "kick with authority" (I like your phrase). Right?

Hey, you are right. I guess I just have better luck holding the brake lever.

303mike wrote:Once running, it seems just fine with no drop in power.

Well, I know I have no credibility left here at all, and I definitely don't want to disagree with Sportique, but I don't think it's a clogged carb jet because of this line in the OP. In my mind, that eliminates the whole raft of fuel delivery issues and leaves the auto choke as the likely culprit. By all means get the carb checked, but please have them verify operation of the auto choke while they're working on the carb.

P.S. Sorry a simple battery swap didn't fix it. Changing the battery will often sort out starting problems, esp if the battery is a few years old.

Good advice on the auto-choke. I thought it sounded weird, but carburetors are a bit of a mystery to me. I have been able to get it started by opening and closing the throttle rapidly ten times before hitting the start button. It is still struggling to start, but it works. Even this morning when it was 18 degrees outside (considerably warmer in my insulated garage). I am planning on taking things apart this weekend for a thorough cleaning. I will do some research on auto-chokes before then.

Thanks again!

303mike wrote:Good advice on the auto-choke. I thought it sounded weird, but carburetors are a bit of a mystery to me. I have been able to get it started by opening and closing the throttle rapidly ten times before hitting the start button. It is still struggling to start, but it works. Even this morning when it was 18 degrees outside (considerably warmer in my insulated garage). I am planning on taking things apart this weekend for a thorough cleaning. I will do some research on auto-chokes before then.

That part about opening and closing the throttle is probably a sign that it's the main jet as others have been hinting. The auto choke, what Motive Power Industries refers to as the "auto enricher," simply makes the fuel mixture richer when the motor is cold by choking off some of the air flow to the carb. Less air means a fuel/air mixture richer in fuel. However, based on what you said above, I'm now firmly in the clogged main jet camp. If PeteH's quick and dirty method doesn't work, it might be better to let Sportique have at it, since they will have the wherewithal to do a thorough job cleaning (without damaging) the carb.

jrsjr wrote:Well, I know I have no credibility left here at all...

Where's the -1 emoticon? Credibility is your middle name. And if it's not it should be.