Modern Buddy

Be still my heart! Moto Guzzi announces a limited edition of what they say is the last year of the beloved Moto Guzzi California. If I just knew where to find the bucks, one of these would be in my garage so fast. (this is what every Italian scooter wants to be when it grows up!)

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/08/moto ... fornia-90/

Dooglas wrote: the last year of the beloved Moto Guzzi California.

Really sorry to hear that. Now what will I do if I win the lottery?

Dooglas wrote:If I just knew where to find the bucks

Ooh, treasure hunt!

Of motorcycle manufacturers, Guzzi is my favorite. Passion at a sedate pace!

jrsjr wrote:

Dooglas wrote: the last year of the beloved Moto Guzzi California.

Really sorry to hear that. Now what will I do if I win the lottery?

Buy one used, of course.

Roose Hurro wrote:
Buy one used, of course.

^^^ They don't wear out!. Sexy Italian farm tractors as a friend who owns three calls them.

Almost bought a 78 Lemans yearss ago...Missed it by 20 minutes, and a lemans III is mine to borrow anytime. Fun to ride, and stylish. Not the fastest, but they work well.

Roose Hurro wrote:

jrsjr wrote:

Dooglas wrote: the last year of the beloved Moto Guzzi California.

Really sorry to hear that. Now what will I do if I win the lottery?

Buy one used, of course.

Or any of the NOS California Vintage models that did not sell. There are plenty around.

I test rode a Cali Vintage and much prefer the more modern Guzzis like the Griso or Stelvio. Those ride like modern, fast, good handling bikes w/o any quirks. Also have much more powerful motors and better brakes, suspension and frame.
The Cali has a really weird foot position that places your knees very high, and makes it difficult to change gears or use the rear brake w/o smashing your shins on the cylinder heads.

The Cali vintage does have better suspension, handling, brakes than other cruisers I have owned and ridden. But that is setting the bar kinda low.

desmolicious wrote:I test rode a Cali Vintage and much prefer the more modern Guzzis like the Griso or Stelvio.

That is being kinda hard hearted isn't it? Sorta like disliking the GTS Vespa because it has too much in common with vintage scooters .
And, in fairness, the special edition California 90 is a better looking bike than the California Vintage with its homely looking tank and plain paint. While I'm at it, the Stelvio also has a look that only a mother could love. But, to each his own.

Pretty bike. There is definitely a Guzzi or two in my fantasy MC/Scooter fleet.

I always thought the California was a very sensible bike. Plus it's said to be quite tough as Italian bikes go, serving as a police bike in many places. I believe it was originally designed for the American police market to compete with Harleys. Much lighter than Big Twins. More comparable to a Sportster.

My only holdback (other than money) is the usual caveat about getting parts for things Italian.

I can't say I'm wild about this particular color scheme.

Southerner wrote:
I can't say I'm wild about this particular color scheme.

Yup, looks like a creamsicle on wheels.

I much prefer the black version with the skunk seat. The pearl white version reminds me too much of fat Elvis in Vegas for some reason.

desmolicious wrote:

Southerner wrote:
I can't say I'm wild about this particular color scheme.

Yup, looks like a creamsicle on wheels.

I much prefer the black version with the skunk seat. The pearl white version reminds me too much of fat Elvis in Vegas for some reason.

I much prefer this version: http://www.motoguzzi-us.com/en_US/prodo ... _bike.aspx#

That's a V7. I believe the California is a 1000.

I hate that this is the swan song of the California. I guess my next choice would be the Griso.

I gotta say it: The Stelvio is dawg-ugly.

Southerner wrote:That's a V7. I believe the California is a 1000.

I hate that this is the swan song of the California. I guess my next choice would be the Griso.

I gotta say it: The Stelvio is dawg-ugly.

Exactly.

Roose Hurro wrote:

desmolicious wrote:

Southerner wrote:
I can't say I'm wild about this particular color scheme.

Yup, looks like a creamsicle on wheels.

I much prefer the black version with the skunk seat. The pearl white version reminds me too much of fat Elvis in Vegas for some reason.

I much prefer this version: http://www.motoguzzi-us.com/en_US/prodo ... _bike.aspx#

Not the same bike. The V7 is a 750cc 'small block' motor.
The current California series bikes in the US use the 1100cc large block motor.
As well as a different frame, chassis etc.

Roose Hurro wrote:

Southerner wrote:That's a V7. I believe the California is a 1000.

I hate that this is the swan song of the California. I guess my next choice would be the Griso.

I gotta say it: The Stelvio is dawg-ugly.

Exactly.

In all fairness, it's a look that all the huge enduro bikes have - BMW R1200GS, Yam Tenere1200, new Triumph 1200, KTM 990 etc.
None are what one would call 'lookers'...

True. I think that even dualsport owners will admit their bikes are ugly.

desmolicious wrote:

Roose Hurro wrote:

Southerner wrote:That's a V7. I believe the California is a 1000.

I hate that this is the swan song of the California. I guess my next choice would be the Griso.

I gotta say it: The Stelvio is dawg-ugly.

Exactly.

In all fairness, it's a look that all the huge enduro bikes have - BMW R1200GS, Yam Tenere1200, new Triumph 1200, KTM 990 etc.
None are what one would call 'lookers'...

There must be something wrong with me 'cos I like the look of the Stelvio and the SuperTen and the Tiger XC, and most especially, the KTM 990ADV. That thing, in the Nassau County orange and blue, ugh, I just can't help myself. I have been known to caress that bike when no one is looking

siobhan wrote:

desmolicious wrote:

Roose Hurro wrote: Exactly.

In all fairness, it's a look that all the huge enduro bikes have - BMW R1200GS, Yam Tenere1200, new Triumph 1200, KTM 990 etc.
None are what one would call 'lookers'...

There must be something wrong with me 'cos I like the look of the Stelvio and the SuperTen and the Tiger XC, and most especially, the KTM 990ADV. That thing, in the Nassau County orange and blue, ugh, I just can't help myself. I have been known to caress that bike when no one is looking

I like the looks too. To me it's all about the functionality. It's not about being pretty. Same reason I love Jeep Wranglers!

desmolicious wrote:Not the same bike. The V7 is a 750cc 'small block' motor.
The current California series bikes in the US use the 1100cc large block motor.
As well as a different frame, chassis etc.

Exactly.

desmolicious wrote:In all fairness, it's a look that all the huge enduro bikes have - BMW R1200GS, Yam Tenere1200, new Triumph 1200, KTM 990 etc.
None are what one would call 'lookers'...

The Moto Guzzi V7 Racer doesn't look like any of those bikes (and, to me at least, it's a "looker"):

http://ozebook.com/wordpress/wp-content ... -racer.jpg

http://www.motoguzzi.com.au/pics/v7racer712606.jpg

http://www.bikewalls.com/pictures/MotoG ... 24x768.jpg

http://p2m.mbike.com/000/003/775/65042896_d.jpg

http://imageshack.us/f/841/guzv7cr.jpg/

http://www.maskriders.com/wp-content/up ... motion.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-h29Ot1S3CUo/T ... acer-4.jpg


Nice view of the dash:

http://topmotorcyclecollection.com/wp-c ... d-View.jpg

Look but don't touch.

Guzzi has the most horrible customer support system, lack of dealers and a "who gives a damn" attitude toward owners.

Before our 50 year dealer folded, I asked him how the manufacturer's support was and his reply was " they don't ever feel my sense of urgency."

Beamster wrote:Look but don't touch.

Guzzi has the most horrible customer support system, lack of dealers and a "who gives a damn" attitude toward owners.

Before our 50 year dealer folded, I asked him how the manufacturer's support was and his reply was " they don't ever feel my sense of urgency."

Well, they're a Piaggio brand, after all!

ericalm wrote:

Beamster wrote:Look but don't touch.

Guzzi has the most horrible customer support system, lack of dealers and a "who gives a damn" attitude toward owners.

Before our 50 year dealer folded, I asked him how the manufacturer's support was and his reply was " they don't ever feel my sense of urgency."

Well, they're a Piaggio brand, after all!

You can trust me when I tell you that they had a long, proud history of poor customer service long before they were bought out by Piaggio.

Roose Hurro wrote:

desmolicious wrote:Not the same bike. The V7 is a 750cc 'small block' motor.
The current California series bikes in the US use the 1100cc large block motor.
As well as a different frame, chassis etc.

Exactly.

desmolicious wrote:In all fairness, it's a look that all the huge enduro bikes have - BMW R1200GS, Yam Tenere1200, new Triumph 1200, KTM 990 etc.
None are what one would call 'lookers'...

The Moto Guzzi V7 Racer doesn't look like any of those bikes (and, to me at least, it's a "looker"):

Yes, but you originally said "I much prefer this version"
The V7 is not a version of the California. It is a completely different bike.

Glad you like the V7. I found it waaay underpowered. The new 750 motor that Guzzi announced should help correct that - still not a ball of fire but it should make 10 more hp than the current one.

Point in case, the Ducati 696 is a 696cc air cooled fuel injected v-twin, so smaller than the 748cc air cooled fuel injected v-twin in the V7. But the Duc makes about 50% more hp.

It's only when you get to the modern Guzzis like the Griso 8V, Stelvio and Norge 8V that their engine performance is on par to other air cooled motors of the same size i.e. BMW 1200cc boxers and Ducati 1100cc Monsters.

jrsjr wrote:

ericalm wrote:

Beamster wrote:Look but don't touch.

Guzzi has the most horrible customer support system, lack of dealers and a "who gives a damn" attitude toward owners.

Before our 50 year dealer folded, I asked him how the manufacturer's support was and his reply was " they don't ever feel my sense of urgency."

Well, they're a Piaggio brand, after all!

You can trust me when I tell you that they had a long, proud history of poor customer service long before they were bought out by Piaggio.

Oh, I'm sure they did. Seems to be true for many of the Italian brands. Aprilia's certainly better now than it was. Wonder how Ducati service and support is?

ericalm wrote:

Beamster wrote:Guzzi has the most horrible customer support system, lack of dealers and a "who gives a damn" attitude toward owners.

Well, they're a Piaggio brand, after all!

Exactly. If you are already riding a Vespa and an MP3, then the Moto Guzzi support network is the least of your worries.

desmolicious wrote:Yup, looks like a creamsicle on wheels.

Hey, I've always liked creamsicles!

desmolicious wrote:Yes, but you originally said "I much prefer this version"
The V7 is not a version of the California. It is a completely different bike.

This "version" of the Moto Guzzi. And then I responded "Exactly" to being told it wasn't a "version" of the California. I thought that made my clarification.

desmolicious wrote:Glad you like the V7. I found it waaay underpowered. The new 750 motor that Guzzi announced should help correct that - still not a ball of fire but it should make 10 more hp than the current one.

Point in case, the Ducati 696 is a 696cc air cooled fuel injected v-twin, so smaller than the 748cc air cooled fuel injected v-twin in the V7. But the Duc makes about 50% more hp.

It's only when you get to the modern Guzzis like the Griso 8V, Stelvio and Norge 8V that their engine performance is on par to other air cooled motors of the same size i.e. BMW 1200cc boxers and Ducati 1100cc Monsters.

One man's "underpowered" is another man's "understressed"... so long as it can go down the road along with any other traffic, it's "good enough". Kinda like one of these: http://hooniverse.com/2010/06/01/two-wh ... l-solo-st/

And another article on the same bike: http://dalefranks.com/cycles/index.php/tag/ural-st/

From what I've read, sounds like the perfect bike for me, motocycle-wise. The kinda bike you can pass down to your grandkids. Plus, much cheaper than the Ducati, or even the Moto Guzzi. And not as maintenence-intensive. Not to mention simple enough to repair on the side of the road, if you ever need to (so long as you bring the tool-kit).

Horsepower is nice, but then, I drive an econo-car (after having owned a V8 Mustang), so I know how to get by with less.

You guys are doing nothing to change my aversion to buying Italian. I really wish somebody would study this Italian attitude to customer service.

I also like the Ural, warts & all. Speaking of Jeeps, the Ural is the 2-wheeled (or 3-wheeled) version. Still, I believe a used, late model Sportster would be a safer buy, get better service and would have a world of parts available. But that's just me.

ericalm wrote: Seems to be true for many of the Italian brands. Aprilia's certainly better now than it was. Wonder how Ducati service and support is?

Actually excellent. They used to stock a warehouse, occasionally, in the US, in the dim dark days (1980s-mid 1990s).
Now they individually order parts as needed from Italy (if is not on the dealer's shelves).
I had a defective fuel tank on a 800SS, and I received a new one from Italy w/in one week! They ship by air, not on the slow boat...

Nothing like the Piaggio group.

Roose Hurro wrote:One man's "underpowered" is another man's "understressed"...

It's actually not understressed. The clue to an understressed motor is how easy it is to extract more power with simple tuning tricks. Unless you spend a lot of money on new cylinder heads, new cranks, new rods, new valves, there is next to nothing more for that engine to give.

Another clue is its extremely shallow sump. It only hold 2 quarts of oil - for a 750cc air cooled motor! So over heating is something that can really quickly kill the engine, as is not checking the oil level constantly as just a little drop - that would be negligible in other motors, can have a drastic effect. The first sign that this has happened (if you are in the market for a used one) is much more engine/valve noise from the left cylinder than the right cylinder, due to the way oil is routed in that motor.

One bit of insurance owners in the know take out is buying an aftermarket deep sump kit -which basically is a machined spacer. This increases the oil capacity by (I think) 100%. Downside is that it greatly reduces road clearance so be careful riding over objects.

Guzzi's new V7 motor that is coming in 2012 should (hopefully) cure all that. Plus they offer a model in black with cast wheels which I much prefer as they do not require tubes in the tyres.

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2011/11/ ... nd-torque/

desmolicious wrote:It's actually not understressed. The clue to an understressed motor is how easy it is to extract more power with simple tuning tricks.

I checked the specs. The Ural sT is based on the BMW R71. If you look up the specs for the original BMW and the Ural, you will find the original R71 (same engine size as the present-day Ural) had a rating of 22 hp, while the present day sT has a rating of 40 hp. I'd say Ural was able to extract quite a bit more power while keeping the bike simple and durable. However, I've been unable to find the Ural's oil capacity, so I have no way to confirm your guesstimate of two quarts.

Oh, I've also been checking reviews on the V7... 43 hp at the rear wheel, according to what I read. Forty-nine hp at the crank. Again according to what I read. Both bikes (Guzzi, Ural) were also rated at the same weight. And neither bike has been rated as a "blistering" performer, but that is not always a consideration. Bikes like this don't have that "mass" appeal, and don't really need it. We'd be less fortunate, if we didn't have bikes like this to admire, either positively or negatively. Not only that, but both bikes (the Ural especially) have a rep for durability, due in no small part, I would say, to the fact they are "underpowered" for their engine size.

They are what they are, like them or not. I happen to like them both. And will be interested to see how they're updated over time. Even though, under my present financial conditions, two wheels of any sort (other than the bicycle I already own) are just a dream.

Roose Hurro wrote:I checked the specs. The Ural sT is based on the BMW R71. If you look up the specs for the original BMW and the Ural, you will find the original R71 (same engine size as the present-day Ural) had a rating of 22 hp, while the present day sT has a rating of 40 hp. I'd say Ural was able to extract quite a bit more power while keeping the bike simple and durable. However, I've been unable to find the Ural's oil capacity, so I have no way to confirm your guesstimate of two quarts.

Actually it is a little more complicated than that. The original Ural M72 (the WW2 military bike) was based on the BMW R71 design. That was a side valve flat head engine. The current Ural engine is an overhead valve engine more similar to the BMW R75. And in the years since this model first appeared as a 650, Ural has increased the displacement to 750 and added many upgraded components including a redesigned cylinder head, Herzog gearing, Keihin or Mikuni carbs, Denso alternator, Brembo hydraulic brakes, etc. And the oil capacity of a Ural 750 engine is 4 liters. (I believe desmolicious was referring to the oil capacity of the V7 Moto Guzzi)

Dooglas wrote:Actually it is a little more complicated than that. The original Ural M72 (the WW2 military bike) was based on the BMW R71 design. That was a side valve flat head engine. The current Ural engine is an overhead valve engine more similar to the BMW R75. And in the years since this model first appeared as a 650, Ural has increased the displacement to 750 and added many upgraded components including a redesigned cylinder head, Herzog gearing, Keihin or Mikuni carbs, Denso alternator, Brembo hydraulic brakes, etc. And the oil capacity of a Ural 750 engine is 4 liters. (I believe desmolicious was referring to the oil capacity of the V7 Moto Guzzi)

Yep, seen those upgrades, and yep, looks like the R75 would be closer, at a rated output of 37 hp. So, still a bit more power in the Ural than in the "original" BMW. And still a very sturdy bike, able to "survive" high mileage use (like the BMW). Also sounds like the Ural holds plenty of oil, so it may very well be the V7 Desmolicious was refering to. Still like the looks and other specs of the V7, though. And it certainly looks better than the Ural! But then, the Ural has a very "industrial" look to it I also like. What you might call the "bulldog" of motorcycles...

I also suspect that the Irbit folks didn't design a whole new transmission just for this bike. If so, this means it still has the same gearing as the hacks, which probably means pretty low gearing so top end might not be particularly high. I base the partially on reports I have read that it gets maybe 40 mpg. I would expect it would do somewhat better considering its displacement.

Roose Hurro wrote: Also sounds like the Ural holds plenty of oil, so it may very well be the V7 Desmolicious was refering to.

I never mentioned Urals anywhere...



Anyway, the 2012 V7 with the new motor should be sweet.

Southerner wrote:I also suspect that the Irbit folks didn't design a whole new transmission just for this bike. If so, this means it still has the same gearing as the hacks, which probably means pretty low gearing so top end might not be particularly high. I base the partially on reports I have read that it gets maybe 40 mpg. I would expect it would do somewhat better considering its displacement.

I'm not sure, but from reading the reviews, it seemed to do fine, top-end wise. But such a simple bike should be easy (and cheap) to regear (upgear), if need be. Being such a simple bike, it would be fun to play with.

desmolicious wrote:I never mentioned Urals anywhere...



Anyway, the 2012 V7 with the new motor should be sweet.

From reading the reviews, I hope they also make some improvements on the transmission... from what I've read, it was pretty much the only "major" fault on the bike. But yes, it does sound sweet, and I love the looks. Always liked the way Moto Guzzi oriented their twin engine, with better lean clearance than BMW's boxer configuration. Though I like the BMW layout, too.

Looks like I'll need to keep an eye out for when they start getting reviews out on the new V7. Sorry shame I have no job and therefor no funds for such a bike. But I can dream!

Regardless of the comments on the model designation, power, and Italian's lack of customer service I would buy just to look at in the garage.

Southerner wrote:I also suspect that the Irbit folks didn't design a whole new transmission just for this bike. If so, this means it still has the same gearing as the hacks, which probably means pretty low gearing so top end might not be particularly high.

The Ural has a shaft drive and a ring gear at the rear wheel. Different rear hub gearing is used for the Ural singles, the Ural cruisers, and the Ural utility and off-road bikes. This results in different effective gearing rates for the various designs. Some of the cruisers also have an 18" rear wheel instead of 19", which further changes the effective gearing ratio.

CEZ2011 wrote:Regardless of the comments on the model designation, power, and Italian's lack of customer service I would buy just to look at in the garage.

Oh what the heck. As long as it were sitting there, I think I'd hop on and go for a ride - and another - and another.........

Southerner wrote:You guys are doing nothing to change my aversion to buying Italian. I really wish somebody would study this Italian attitude to customer service.

I lived my entire life with an Italian sister so I've done the study as have her three husbands.
She has an attitude much like MotoGuzz.

The Italians make some of the best motorbikes in the world. The problem is that you MUST be passionate about them, because the reps in the US sure aren't At least the distributors anyway...

They just don't consider the US market profitable enough. Much like you won't find decent service for a Harley in much of Africa: The market *really* isn't quite there as much as say, Japan, England or the US

neotrotsky wrote:The Italians make some of the best motorbikes in the world. The problem is that you MUST be passionate about them, because the reps in the US sure aren't At least the distributors anyway...

+1. Well said! (The Italians are also the folks who build Ferraris and Maseratis after all )

neotrotsky wrote:The Italians make some of the best motorbikes in the world. The problem is that you MUST be passionate about them, because the reps in the US sure aren't At least the distributors anyway...

They just don't consider the US market profitable enough. Much like you won't find decent service for a Harley in much of Africa: The market *really* isn't quite there as much as say, Japan, England or the US

You lump all Italian bikes as one, as if they are all made by the same company.

Ducati is nothing like Piaggio/Aprilia/Moto Guzzi.

They have excellent customer service and support.

Hard to generalize very much about local customer service and support in the US since there are so few single brand dealers. In Portland the Ducati dealer is also the Aprilia dealer, the Vespa dealer is also the Buddy dealer, and the Moto Guzzi dealer is also the Triumph dealer.

desmolicious wrote:

neotrotsky wrote:The Italians make some of the best motorbikes in the world. The problem is that you MUST be passionate about them, because the reps in the US sure aren't At least the distributors anyway...

They just don't consider the US market profitable enough. Much like you won't find decent service for a Harley in much of Africa: The market *really* isn't quite there as much as say, Japan, England or the US

You lump all Italian bikes as one, as if they are all made by the same company.

Ducati is nothing like Piaggio/Aprilia/Moto Guzzi.

They have excellent customer service and support.

Compare the number of Ducati dealers to Honda or Yamaha dealers. You will still have a much harder time getting service for them. And, trying to get the time of day from a Ducati salesperson when I was interested in a Used Monster in their showroom was difficult at best. If you don't look like you have money, they'll pretty much ignore you.

neotrotsky wrote:

desmolicious wrote:

neotrotsky wrote:The Italians make some of the best motorbikes in the world. The problem is that you MUST be passionate about them, because the reps in the US sure aren't At least the distributors anyway...

They just don't consider the US market profitable enough. Much like you won't find decent service for a Harley in much of Africa: The market *really* isn't quite there as much as say, Japan, England or the US

You lump all Italian bikes as one, as if they are all made by the same company.

Ducati is nothing like Piaggio/Aprilia/Moto Guzzi.

They have excellent customer service and support.

Compare the number of Ducati dealers to Honda or Yamaha dealers. You will still have a much harder time getting service for them. And, trying to get the time of day from a Ducati salesperson when I was interested in a Used Monster in their showroom was difficult at best. If you don't look like you have money, they'll pretty much ignore you.

There is a difference between decent service, number of dealerships, and service from the distributor/manufacturer.

Ducati (Guzzi, Aprilia, BMW etc) have far fewer dealerships than Honda et al. True.
But, I'm in LA - the moto capital of the US and there is not a single Japanese dealership with a decent service department that I know of in a 100 mile radius. I used to go to Thousand Oaks Honda who were one of two HRC dealerships in the country but they are long gone. So, quantity is not of much help.
However, there is an excellent Ducati shop in my area that also handles Guzzi and Aprilia. And I know of a few others in CA. All BMW dealerships (as well as all Harley dealerships) I have visited have very competent service shops.
Service/supplies from the distributor/mfg itself? That is different and Piaggio (Aprilla/Guzzi/Vespa) basically sucks in the US. Ducati is excellent.
Now if a dealer carries Ducati and Aprilia/Guzzi it may very well be that they can take care of your Ducati properly, but not the Aprilia etc just because Ducati provides the correct support, but not Piaggio/Aprilia. No fault of the dealership.

It's unfortunate that you had a bad experience at a Duc shop. But that is an issue with one place and not every place. Personally the only time I had an issue at any bike shop is at Guzzi/Vespa Thousand Oaks where they tried to sell me a $14K Griso for $18K!

Bottom line Ducati is separate from the Piaggio line of companies, and the support from the distributor and mfg is very different.

I guess we are not too badly off around here, considering the population statistics. We have a combined Honda/Suzuki dealership here in town and a a Yamaha shop that also sells Vespa/Piaggio.

Supposedly, a lawn equipment company in town will be selling Kymcos soon. I would guess they won't bother to start stocking until spring.

Columbus, GA is not too far away and sells the big 4 Japanese brands, Vespa/Piaggio, Big Dog Choppers (if they still exist) and Can-Am 3-wheelers.

And a couple of Harley dealerships hereabouts, both the new "Taj Mahals" as the older dealerships have disappeared.