Passed MSF Basic rider course!

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:43 am

Took the basic rider course this weekend and passed it! Regarding counter steering and counterweight, all bicyclists who are competent would already be doing it. What they describe as press and lean for countersteering is what I tend to feel as shifting the weight of the motorcycle, just like how I have previously described.

I haven't heard discussion of counterweight technique in scooter forums but it is like countersteering but the body leans opposite to where the bike is leaning and the wheels are turned in the direction of the turn. It's used for slow, sharp turns like in u-turns. All bicyclist would likely have automatically done this in making some sharp corner turns like at a parking lot.

Overall, worthwhile course. And I'm glad I passed. Gonna get my motorcycle endorsement this week

bigbropgo · Post by **bigbropgo** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:46 am

congrats on passing.

SoCalScooter · Post by **SoCalScooter** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:47 am

Congrats Teabow! I hope your new endorsement leads to many miles of savings riding your scooter vs. driving a car. Did you decide on the make and model yet? Last I remember it was Aprilla Sportcity vs. a Beverly...

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:55 am

Congrats!...

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:59 am

Congrats. Good move taking that course. There is not a day I ride that what I learned in the MSF course doesn't serve me well. I recommend following it up with reading Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:16 pm

Thanks everyone!

Yeah, it's now between the Piaggio BV 300, BV 350, BV 250 and Aprilia Sportcity 250. Actually, I would prefer the BV 300 or BV 350 but will settle for the BV 250 or Sportcity 250. The BV 300 and BV 250 is not widely available as they are being phased out by the BV 350. But, the 350 isn't coming until April which I estimate is a little late for me to wait! So maybe the 350 is in practical terms out of the picture.

But, I would be overjoyed if I can get my hands on a brand new BV 300.

A few curious things about the MSF course, and maybe because it's due to the lack of time:
• I wonder why they don't just let students get familiar with the controls by practising using them for a while. Like gearshifting, it would have been good to just let us do a straightaway course with no turns and no obstacles learning to gearshift from 1 to 2 then to 1 and then stopping. Because of such lack of practice, it was often the case for many of us that in technical practice courses many of us forgot to downshift to 1 when we stopped at the instructor's spot for coaching.

• The basic rider course does not allow us any extra practice to say just warm up. We had a practice day on Saturday and on Sunday. When we returned on Sunday morning, all of us felt a little rusty but we had to dive right in to technical courses with curves, weaves, and what not. We wanted to ride in ovals just to warm-up the muscle memory. The instructor said this was not allowed by MSF, that we can't do anything beyond what is in the book. She said she's written to MSF for allowing such warm-up exercises but no go. So she found it weird too.

• There were some exercises I would love to have honed in before moving on. The one I had most difficulty with and many of us still do even after passing the test are:
- going down a very tight S - curve. This is a curve that's tighter than what a car can do, so we won't ever see this on the road
- doing a figure 8 in a very small box about 20ft by 60ft, I think. They emphasised that this technique is NOT a life saving technique and so doesn't count much (thank God!) since we only got to practice it in one session.
- doing swerves around alternating cones. On the other hand, doing swerves around lined cones were easy peasy.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:20 pm

Here's the box we all had difficulty with. Out of 11 students, I think only 2 mastered it. Everyone else went wide or could only do the first turn within the box. I could do the first turn within the box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGCgbEID83U

I was sure there was a trick to doing this box. Because I have poor depth perception (due to the primary use of one eye), it was hard for me to visualise the path of travel, when to turn and so forth. I think if I could paint a path, which allows me to physically see ahead the path of travel, I can do it. Then after getting this down in muscle memory, erase the painted line and I can do the box!

DanteG · Post by **DanteG** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:31 pm

The secret to the box seems counter-intuitive, but it works - more speed ! The instructors advised those on geared motorcycles to get up to second gear before entering the box. As I went through on my Buddy, I tried to follow the example and give myself a little momentum going in. As I recall, no one in my class had a flame-out on the box - one or two may have put a foot down (not allowed), but no one went screaming out of the box limits.

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:25 pm

The box really irked me with the whole 'do not put your feet down' thing. Unless you are going at speed what exactly is the harm of putting your foot down to keep your ride from hitting the floor?
I mean cobblestones? Ride with feet down
Gravel? Yep, feet down
Tight U-turn? I'll damn well have my foot ready to go down if I please!

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:53 pm

DanteG wrote:The secret to the box seems counter-intuitive, but it works - more speed ! The instructors advised those on geared motorcycles to get up to second gear before entering the box. As I went through on my Buddy, I tried to follow the example and give myself a little momentum going in. As I recall, no one in my class had a flame-out on the box - one or two may have put a foot down (not allowed), but no one went screaming out of the box limits.

Interesting. Our instructor said the opposite. His trick was to rev the engine high so that the flywheel gyroscope keeps the bike up, and then combo of clutch control and rear brake to manoeuvre bike through. Worked for him. Not so well for me.

I know how to look through a turn since that's what I already do as a bicyclist. But, when I can't visualise the path of travel in a box, I can't imagine it in e head! : - (

The trick in the video above seemed to maybe help. I'll have to try it. I only got notice of this video after the course. Their trick is to not think of these as two u-turns but as two 225 degree turns.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:57 pm

Lokky wrote:The box really irked me with the whole 'do not put your feet down' thing. Unless you are going at speed what exactly is the harm of putting your foot down to keep your ride from hitting the floor?
I mean cobblestones? Ride with feet down
Gravel? Yep, feet down
Tight U-turn? I'll damn well have my foot ready to go down if I please!

One of our instructors told us a funny story. It was one that irked her. It's minus 3 points for dropping your foot. But if you put your foot back on the peg and then drop it again, another minus 3 points. So, one former student just powered walk her motorcycle through the whole box. Result: only minus three points!!! LOL LOL. Joke's on us!

I wish our instructors spent time individually helping us master the tight turns. But because they aren't safety techniques, they didn't emphasise it much. The box after all isn't a heavy weight part of the exam.

LunaP · Post by **LunaP** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:46 pm

teabow1 wrote:
Lokky wrote:The box really irked me with the whole 'do not put your feet down' thing. Unless you are going at speed what exactly is the harm of putting your foot down to keep your ride from hitting the floor?
I mean cobblestones? Ride with feet down
Gravel? Yep, feet down
Tight U-turn? I'll damn well have my foot ready to go down if I please!
One of our instructors told us a funny story. It was one that irked her. It's minus 3 points for dropping your foot. But if you put your foot back on the peg and then drop it again, another minus 3 points. So, one former student just powered walk her motorcycle through the whole box. Result: only minus three points!!! LOL LOL. Joke's on us!

I wish our instructors spent time individually helping us master the tight turns. But because they aren't safety techniques, they didn't emphasise it much. The box after all isn't a heavy weight part of the exam.

This sounds like something I would do if I were frustrated. XDDD

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:56 pm

Lokky wrote:The box really irked me with the whole 'do not put your feet down' thing. Unless you are going at speed what exactly is the harm of putting your foot down to keep your ride from hitting the floor?
I mean cobblestones? Ride with feet down
Gravel? Yep, feet down
Tight U-turn? I'll damn well have my foot ready to go down if I please!

You NEVER want to put your feet down on a bike if you can avoid it! It doesn't take much to snap an ankle, and remember: The bike has torque behind it as well as it's own weight. If your foot gets snagged or the bike angles in a direction you don't want it, your puny human ankle is NOT going to stop it. Also, dragging feet while moving is just plain stupid.

If you can't ride with your feet off the ground, get training wheels or off the bike.

Also, the figure-of-eight is actually a very good skill to have. While not "directly" life saving, quick counter-turning is a constant skill in dense traffic and parking lots. Master figure-of-eight turning and you'll find snaking that last parking spot a breeze or avoiding the idiot pedestrian absorbed in his iDevice while walking blindly into traffic second nature.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:48 pm

Skootz Kabootz wrote:Congrats. Good move taking that course. There is not a day I ride that what I learned in the MSF course doesn't serve me well. I recommend following it up with reading Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough.

+1. Also, Skootz and I get kickbacks for recommending the book.

(Kidding! If only!)

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:00 pm

neotrotsky wrote:
Lokky wrote:The box really irked me with the whole 'do not put your feet down' thing. Unless you are going at speed what exactly is the harm of putting your foot down to keep your ride from hitting the floor?
I mean cobblestones? Ride with feet down
Gravel? Yep, feet down
Tight U-turn? I'll damn well have my foot ready to go down if I please!
You NEVER want to put your feet down on a bike if you can avoid it! It doesn't take much to snap an ankle, and remember: The bike has torque behind it as well as it's own weight. If your foot gets snagged or the bike angles in a direction you don't want it, your puny human ankle is NOT going to stop it. Also, dragging feet while moving is just plain stupid.

If you can't ride with your feet off the ground, get training wheels or off the bike.

Also, the figure-of-eight is actually a very good skill to have. While not "directly" life saving, quick counter-turning is a constant skill in dense traffic and parking lots. Master figure-of-eight turning and you'll find snaking that last parking spot a breeze or avoiding the idiot pedestrian absorbed in his iDevice while walking blindly into traffic second nature.

About not riding with foot down, I agree. About the only exception is power walking the bike.

If you're talking about learning to swerve, that's different than the u-turn box figure 8 turns. Swerving is defined as two consecutive countersteering done quickly. That is a life saving strategy per MSF categories and for me, that was an easy technique to do as I could already do it on a bicycle. Figure 8 is executed differently.

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:05 pm

Never say never. These guys are moving pretty fast... with their foot down.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:50 pm

Lotrat wrote:Never say never. These guys are moving pretty fast... with their foot down.

Professional Motocross riders with reinforced gear with decades of riding experience who know what they're doing.

Not some noob in Chuck Taylors trying to keep his bike upright at 20 mph not knowing what he's doing... big difference. We are talking the BASICS of riding. If you need to rely on sticking your feet out like you're learning to ride a schwinn when turning or riding on a bit of sand or gravel that you encounter on the street then you obviously need more training.

If you can't ride a BASIC bike without putting your feet down, either practice more or buy a Prius.

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:23 pm

Just having some fun... I don't even put my feet down at a stop sign.