C.A.R.B. certification for a kitted scooter.

GrantSR · Post by **GrantSR** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:45 am

I plan to move to California. I have a Buddy 125 which I plan to mod-up to 161cc. I have called the CA Highway Patrol (CHP) and they told me that I could get my modded Buddy certified as a motorcycle so I can go on the Highway, but ONLY because they also make 150cc Buddys that have the same frame, brakes, etc as my 125.

My Buddy is a 2007 with 12,000 miles on it.

Can anyone from CA give me some additional tips to make this certification process go more smoothly?

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:51 am

Well I Don't know if this helps or not but that's enough cc's for the highway in Ca. I don't suggest it though!! I think as long as you carry written proof that it's been moded then you shouldn't have any trouble.

Howardr · Post by **Howardr** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:21 pm

Why would they ever pull you over, unless you couldn't keep up with traffic and were blocking traffic? In that instance you can be cited regardless of the size of your motor, even if it were 1600cc. If it were me, I wouldn't bother.

Howard

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:40 pm

Heheheh - pull the '125' plastic badges off with a heat gun.

Witch · Post by **Witch** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:39 pm

Honestly, when I moved there with my kitted 50, I just paid a motorcycle shop a few extra dollars to help me register it. I brought in all my paperwork, and they did all the legwork for me.

Perhaps call a shop local to the area you're planning to move to, and see what they say...? Some shops may have the authority to declare what your engine size is, which would probably be a big help.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:43 pm

That's a lot of hassle for what, in the end, may not be a worthwhile outcome.

You can ride a 125 on highways in CA. It's the freeways you need a 150 for.

The DMV doesn't differentiate between any vehicle over 50cc when it comes to registration. There are no separate classifications for "freeway-legal" and "non-freeway-legal" scooters or motorcycles.

When riders in CA kit their 125s, they don't have to re-register with the DMV to prove they're now legal on freeways.

Your best bet: Take to the DMV, register it as a Buddy 125. Mentioning the kit could land you in the middle of a Kafka story as no one at the DMV will know how to handle it.

As far as riding on the freeway (or highways), you will only get stopped if you're incapable of maintaining safe speeds. This can be an issue regardless of how big your engine is.

A Buddy 150 or kitted 125 isn't very well-suited for CA freeway riding. If you're going to need to ride a lot of freeways out here, save the money on the kit, sell the Buddy and get something with a stock 200cc or bigger engine.

Silver Streak · Post by **Silver Streak** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:36 pm

ericalm wrote:
Your best bet: Take to the DMV, register it as a Buddy 125. Mentioning the kit could land you in the middle of a Kafka story as no one at the DMV will know how to handle it.

Damn straight. I once tried to register a kitted Yamaha Vino 50 (kitted to 72cc) as a motorcycle in Maryland. Wanted to do it so that I wouldn't be subject to the 35mph speed limit for 50cc scoots. They had absolutely no way to deal with it. When they entered the VIN in their computers, it came up as 49cc and therefore unregisterable. They couldn't wrap their bureaucratic minds around any other possibilities, even though they could have collected more money from me and could have put me in the legally appropriate vehicle class.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:44 pm

ericalm wrote:If you're going to need to ride a lot of freeways out here, save the money on the kit, sell the Buddy and get something with a stock 200cc or bigger engine.

+1 Definitely.

But don't get the Kymco Lie 200cc... ooops sorry, that's the "Kymco Like 200". It's kinda like a 200, except that it's a 163.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:36 am

Skootz Kabootz wrote:
ericalm wrote:If you're going to need to ride a lot of freeways out here, save the money on the kit, sell the Buddy and get something with a stock 200cc or bigger engine.
+1 Definitely.

But don't get the Kymco Lie 200cc... ooops sorry, that's the "Kymco Like 200". It's kinda like a 200, except that it's a 163.

People gripe about that, but the scooter isn't called the Like 200cc, it's the Like 200. Though the number designation is usually reflective of displacement, that's not always the case and shouldn't be assumed so. Anyone that buys one without looking at the specs probably doesn't know or care about the difference or deserves what they get for not shopping smarter.

I agree that the Like's got a more significant difference between name and reality than most, but don't get why this comes up so frequently. In the end, I'd care more about quality and performance. The SYM HD200 Evo is actually a 171cc but it performs like many 250s. You don't hear many people complaining about that discrepancy. (It's also a much better pick than the Like 200 IMHO.)

GrantSR · Post by **GrantSR** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:33 am

Howardr wrote:Why would they ever pull you over, [...] If it were me, I wouldn't bother.

So, you wouldn't bother getting the proper license plates on your vehicle? Really?

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:42 am

GrantSR wrote:
Howardr wrote:Why would they ever pull you over, [...] If it were me, I wouldn't bother.
So, you wouldn't bother getting the proper license plates on your vehicle? Really?

There's no difference between the plates on a 125, a 150 and a 161 in CA and most other states for that matter. I think he's saying he wouldn't bother with making the distinction with the DMV.

GrantSR · Post by **GrantSR** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:43 am

PeteH wrote:Heheheh - pull the '125' plastic badges off with a heat gun.

I already pulled off the 125 part when I first got the scooter. One of the reasons I chose the Buddy was, because of its small size, it could easily be mistaken for a 50cc scooter. I was going to KU at the time. KU allows 50cc scooters to ride in the main part of campus where cars aren't allowed during business hours. They also allow 50cc scooters to park in the bike racks right by the buildings. I had had a little red 50cc Twist-N-Go for a couple of years doing exactly that. When I decided to upgrade to a faster scooter (cause the Twist-N-Go was dying fast, even after a whole new top end) I chose the Buddy and took off the 125 part of the emblems and no one was ever the wiser.

Now, I have the opposite problem. I want to make sure that my little red scooter which will soon have 161cc (and a little later will have a few more kick-ass mods) is not mistaken for a smaller capacity scooter. So, I need to get it C.A.R.B. certified at 161cc so I can get the full-on motorcycle plates.

GrantSR · Post by **GrantSR** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:46 am

Witch wrote:I just paid a motorcycle shop a few extra dollars to help me register it. I brought in all my paperwork, and they did all the legwork for me.

Thanks for that tip. I had forgotten that in CA the shop that works on your vehicle can often take care of the registration for you. It has been 21 years since I have driven there. (I used to live in LA.)

SuperFlyBuddy · Post by **SuperFlyBuddy** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:52 am

Genuine (PGO) has never manufactured a Buddy 161 so you're not going to be able to register it as such. From the way it sounds a Buddy 125 is a "full-on motorcycle" in the eyes of the California DMV so you're going to get the same plates either way.

GrantSR · Post by **GrantSR** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:30 am

ericalm wrote:That's a lot of hassle for what, in the end, may not be a worthwhile outcome.

Well, if I take Witch's suggestion then it might not be much trouble at all. It seems I am having more hassle here with people trying to convince me that I don't need to bother than would be the total bother if I did bother.

ericalm wrote:You can ride a 125 on highways in CA. It's the freeways you need a 150 for.

Well, that's my problem. I can't tell the difference between a highway and a freeway. And it seems neither can most anybody else. If the two terms have any distinction, it is lost on me.

ericalm wrote:The DMV doesn't differentiate between any vehicle over 50cc when it comes to registration. There are no separate classifications for "freeway-legal" and "non-freeway-legal" scooters or motorcycles.

Yes they do. Pages 2 and 3 of the California Motorcycle Handbook clearly designates any cycle with 149cc or less engine as a "Motor-Driven Cycle" and NOT a motorcycle. You cannot get motorcycle plates with less than 150cc.

ericalm wrote:When riders in CA kit their 125s, they don't have to re-register with the DMV to prove they're now legal on freeways.

They may not do it. And they may get away with not doing it. It may even be within the law to ride such a cycle on the "freeway" but, if a cop stops you - and some cop in a bad mood eventually will - then I don't want it to be my word against his imagination. His imagination will win out every time.

ericalm wrote:A Buddy 150 or kitted 125 isn't very well-suited for CA freeway riding. If you're going to need to ride a lot of freeways out here, save the money on the kit, sell the Buddy and get something with a stock 200cc or bigger engine.

I used to live out in LA. I have been on the I-5 many times - with and without traffic. A lot of the times I could have kept up with traffic on my bicycle. Granted, I was in great shape then and could do 25-35 mph sometimes. My Buddy will go 65mph right now,with 12,000 miles on it. I ride it on a 55mph speed-limit highway here in Tucson all the time and generally pass most of the cars. So, after kitting and modding my Buddy I expect that I will not have any trouble at all keeping up with normal highway traffic.

I looked into 200cc and up scooters. They want so damned much for them that I don't think it would be worth it. They are all much heavier than my Buddy and have larger wheels so there wouldn't be as much torque on the ground for the same engine power. From my rough guestimation based on hours of research, it seems I would have to get a 250cc scooter to equal the acceleration and top speed of my Buddy after kitting and modding. The used cost for one of those would be about $800 - $1000 more than the blue-book on my Buddy. I would have to pay the full cost of the "new" scooter then try to sell mine, unless I traded in at a dealer, in which case I loose money for their profit so I would be out more like $1200 - $1500.

And for what? A bigger, more cumbersome scooter, that is harder to find a parking spot for, that I would have to modify my windscreen - yet again - for. (I am not giving up that wind screen. It is almost impossible to find one like it and I spent two weeks modifying it to be exactly the way I like it.) And - most importantly of all - it would not be my Buddy. I really like the way that thing rides. I have had it for four and a half years - longer than I have had any woman.

I still may trade in my Buddy if I find a really great deal. I am in no rush to do the upgrade or make the trade. I do not expect to be moving to CA for about a year. I am just doing my research now so I can make the best decision later.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:19 am

You know...it sounds like you are going to do what you like...No matter how many folks here tell you not to bother. I always keep the DMV out of things whenever possible...I have owned many bikes over the years, and all they ever do is make a headache even BIGGER...every time.

And this is coming from a guy who worked for them as a MSF instructor for 7 years.

Just my 2 cents

Silver Streak · Post by **Silver Streak** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:22 am

GrantSR wrote:They are all much heavier than my Buddy and have larger wheels so there wouldn't be as much torque on the ground for the same engine power.

I also prefer lightweight, small-wheeled scooters, but this sentence doesn't make sense.

Scooters with big wheels don't pay a torque penalty. The gear ratio between the engine and rear wheel is lower so that the effective overall gearing (including the wheel) is the same.

DaBinChe · Post by **DaBinChe** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:05 am

Don't do it!!!! You will be creating a problem where there was none and you will lose.

Just leave the paper work as is, CA DMV will do something stupid like ban your bike FOREVER from the state because it doesn't fit into their category of smog or some BS.

In CA every bike gets the same license plate & registration even 49cc scooters. Only mopeds plates are different, they are consider motorized bicycles so don't fit into the motorcycle category. The Sub category of motordriven cycles fall into the motorcycle rules and everything is the same except no freeway.

Also driver license wise all motorcycles have the same M1 license too, even a 49cc scooter. Only mopeds require a M2 license.

As for what is freeway legal, 150cc and greater is freeway legal. In CA all public roads are considered highways, this is the first rule/law in the California Vehicle Code book (CVC). A freeway is a controlled roadway...you'll know you're entering a freeway in CA by on/off ramps, also there will always be signs that say you are "entering a freeway pedestrians, bicyclist, equestrian, and motordriven cycles are prohibited." In the case of motordriven cycles CA categorize this by any motorcycle that is below 150cc. This sub category of motorcycles requires a M1 license, as stated above

GrantSR · Post by **GrantSR** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:20 am

viney266 wrote:You know...it sounds like you are going to do what you like...No matter how many folks here tell you not to bother. I always keep the DMV out of things whenever possible...I have owned many bikes over the years, and all they ever do is make a headache even BIGGER...every time.

And this is coming from a guy who worked for them as a MSF instructor for 7 years.

Just my 2 cents

Viney, I do appreciate your advice. However, I did ask "how" to do something. Not "whether I should" do something. Witch gave me the best advice, which is to do an end run around the DMV by going through a scooter shop. When I get there, I will definitely go to a scooter shop and ask their advice as well.

GrantSR · Post by **GrantSR** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:24 am

Silver Streak wrote:Scooters with big wheels don't pay a torque penalty. The gear ratio between the engine and rear wheel is lower so that the effective overall gearing (including the wheel) is the same.

Ah, I did not know that. That will teach me for believing something based on what someone said in an internet forum.

Heck, I guess for that matter, they could have an even more advantageous gearing if they wanted to. So, since nothing is written in stone as far as me kitting my current Buddy or buying a different scooter, I guess I will have to test ride a lot of scooters. I don't think I will mind that.

GrantSR · Post by **GrantSR** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:00 am

DaBinChe wrote:Don't do it!!!! You will be creating a problem where there was none and you will lose.

I guess I would better understand why people are so adamant about warning me against what seems like a basic process of getting my scooter licensed as a motorcycle instead of a motor-driven cycle if they explained the process a little. Perhaps I lead people down the wrong path when I said I wanted to get "C.A.R.B. certified." I had assumed that all that meant was that I would get my license plates and have to pass an emissions test. I just wanted to get the license plates that said I had a motorcycle. In Missouri, Kansas, and Arizona - the 3 states I have lived in recently - anything under 50cc gets a special "motorized cycle" plate which is different from the plate on a "real" motorcycle. From my reading of the CA motor vehicle laws and the Motorcycle Handbook, it appeared that I would not be able to get a plate that said I had a "motorcycle" without proving to someone that I now had >150cc capacity.

DaBinChe wrote:Just leave the paper work as is, CA DMV will do something stupid like ban your bike FOREVER from the state because it doesn't fit into their category of smog or some BS.

But what "paper work" are you talking about. I don't know what the process is so I don't know what paperwork I would be trying to do anything with anyway. That is why I was asking for advice. Instead, I just got a bunch of people telling me not to do what seemed like a perfectly normal thing to do. It's kind of like asking people directions to the nearest ATM and having them all say "NOOO! Don't go!" just because they think it is too far to walk.

DaBinChe wrote:In CA every bike gets the same license plate & registration even 49cc scooters. Only mopeds plates are different, they are consider motorized bicycles so don't fit into the motorcycle category. The Sub category of motordriven cycles fall into the motorcycle rules and everything is the same except no freeway.

Well, now that I know the difference between a "highway" and a "freeway" - at least according to funky Cali definitions

- I can state definitively that I will want to go on the freeway. The Bay Area has too many areas that are connected almost solely by freeways, or taking the surface streets (AKA "highways" even if they are at sea level) would take way, way too long. I do not plan on spending all of every afternoon on the freeway but I may need to from time to time.

DaBinChe wrote:Also driver license wise all motorcycles have the same M1 license too, even a 49cc scooter. Only mopeds require a M2 license.

That is weird, but then I would expect CA to be more stringent on who they allow to ride around at 30 mph running over pedestrians. Why for, I don't know.

DaBinChe wrote:As for what is freeway legal, 150cc and greater is freeway legal. In CA all public roads are considered highways, this is the first rule/law in the California Vehicle Code book (CVC). A freeway is a controlled roadway...you'll know you're entering a freeway in CA by on/off ramps, also there will always be signs that say you are "entering a freeway pedestrians, bicyclist, equestrian, and motordriven cycles are prohibited." In the case of motordriven cycles CA categorize this by any motorcycle that is below 150cc. This sub category of motorcycles requires a M1 license, as stated above

OK, so now let me see if I can restate what everyone has been trying to tell me.

- I will be able to get the "motorcycle" license plates just by nature of my Buddy being designated as 125cc on the title because that is > 49cc.

- I will be able to go on the freeway just because I have (or will have) 161cc, even if I have no way of proving to a doubting cop that I have any more than 125cc.

- If I try to get my Buddy certified as >= 150cc then I will have to pass more stringent C.A.R.B. requirements? Which I may not pass due to the kitting and modding.

- If I try to get my Buddy certified as having >= 150cc then some jackass at the DMV may flag me as permanently disallowed.

- The chances of a cop giving me a hard time are almost nil. (That is going to take some proving.)

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:19 am

correct!

bigbropgo · Post by **bigbropgo** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:25 am

People are trying to help. The DMV isn't required to make your life easier. They are trying to determine if you have payed the maximum amount possible to register your vehicle. Cali has a very strict emission restriction in place. If anything out of the ordinary comes up, you may get hassled. And forced to jump through hoops. The choice is yours I guess. But again, people are just trying to save you some grief.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:33 am

GrantSR wrote:
ericalm wrote:The DMV doesn't differentiate between any vehicle over 50cc when it comes to registration. There are no separate classifications for "freeway-legal" and "non-freeway-legal" scooters or motorcycles.
Yes they do. Pages 2 and 3 of the California Motorcycle Handbook clearly designates any cycle with 149cc or less engine as a "Motor-Driven Cycle" and NOT a motorcycle. You cannot get motorcycle plates with less than 150cc.

What I'm saying is that the registration doesn't reflect this and is no different. So while you can ride your 150cc on the freeway, you don't need to register it any differently than a 125cc. The distinction is for enforcement of which vehicles are permitted to use the freeway.

CARB tests vehicles to determine whether they meet emissions and other requirements for sale in California. They do not test individual vehicles or modified vehicles to see if they meet those requirements. Motorcycles and scooters are not subject to inspections or emissions tests after purchase.

Your scooter is not individually CARB-cerified. The Buddy 125s are certified as a model, meaning they're cleared for sale.

See "How To Register A Vehicle from Out-of-State": http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/howto/htvr9.htm

If the DMV bothers to inspect your vehicle, they will check the VINs (body and engine) to see if they match and will check emissions certifications. The Buddys are CARB-approved for sale in the state, so you'll have no issues and will be in compliance with the law. Since you have over 7500 miles on your scooter, even if it were not CARB-approved, you could register the scooter.

There is nothing in CA Vehicle Code requiring you to report that the cylinder kit is installed. It does not alter the status of your vehicle when you register.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:51 am

GrantSR wrote: - I will be able to get the "motorcycle" license plates just by nature of my Buddy being designated as 125cc on the title because that is > 49cc.

The plates are no different for a 125 than they are for a 1200cc.

- I will be able to go on the freeway just because I have (or will have) 161cc, even if I have no way of proving to a doubting cop that I have any more than 125cc.

Yes.

- If I try to get my Buddy certified as >= 150cc then I will have to pass more stringent C.A.R.B. requirements? Which I may not pass due to the kitting and modding.

No. See my post above. No testing for scooters and motorcycles in CA.

- If I try to get my Buddy certified as having >= 150cc then some jackass at the DMV may flag me as permanently disallowed.

What's more likely to happen is that they'll have no idea what you're talking about and you'll just wind up expending a lot of time and energy trying to explain or convince them of something that you're not required to mention in the first place. This could delay your registration.

I know people who've been rejected at the DMV when trying to register something who get it registered the next day simply by going to a different person. The workers at the DMV are not fluent in the details of dealing with out of state motorcycles/scooters and it's in your best interest not to complicate the process unnecessarily.

- The chances of a cop giving me a hard time are almost nil. (That is going to take some proving.)

The only time anyone I know has been pulled over on the freeway on a scooter has either been speeding or, as mentioned earlier, riding too slow. That's true for any instances I've read about or heard of. It's never been for simply being on a scooter. Empirical evidence will be hard to find, but maybe sufficient anecdotal evidence will convince you. You can ask about this on every forum, every CA riding group and club site. You'll likely get the same responses.

Personally, I ride my Vespa LX on the freeways occasionally and it has no badges showing its displacement and is indistinguishable from a 50cc to anyone who doesn't know that the color was only for 150s. I've never been pulled over and have ridden by LAPD and CHP many times.

DaBinChe · Post by **DaBinChe** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:31 am

Basically are creating an issue where there is no issue. As I and others have pointed out that there is no difference in paper work, registration, title, license plate etc between a Goldwing an R1 a VROD your Buddy (kitted or not) or even a 49cc Metropolitan. They all have the same license plate, title is the same, registration is the same, even license to operate is the same. Nothing in any paperwork will mention engine size.

CA has no smog check for bikes nor do they do ANY TYPE of inspection. What will happen when you go to the DMV, like Eric said, is check the VIN and engine number to make sure every thing checks out, make sure your lights and horn works and that is it. This is the only time that the DMV will take a look at your bike. Since you are moving from out of state even if your bike does not meet CARB you are still okay. There is the rules of 7.5k miles or older then 3years if a vehicle doesn't meet CARB when it was originally sold.

Now if cops pulls you over on the freeway there is no way for them to know the engine size unless you tell them. None of the paper work will have engine size on it as stated above.

DaBinChe · Post by **DaBinChe** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:50 am

GrantSR wrote:

OK, so now let me see if I can restate what everyone has been trying to tell me.

1) I will be able to get the "motorcycle" license plates just by nature of my Buddy being designated as 125cc on the title because that is > 49cc.

2) I will be able to go on the freeway just because I have (or will have) 161cc, even if I have no way of proving to a doubting cop that I have any more than 125cc.

3) If I try to get my Buddy certified as >= 150cc then I will have to pass more stringent C.A.R.B. requirements? Which I may not pass due to the kitting and modding.

4) If I try to get my Buddy certified as having >= 150cc then some jackass at the DMV may flag me as permanently disallowed.

5) The chances of a cop giving me a hard time are almost nil. (That is going to take some proving.)

1) even a 49cc like the Honda Metropolitan has the same plates as a Honda Goldwing.

2) You don't have to prove to the cop that you have >=150cc unless they read the badge on the scoot that says buddy 125 or if you tell him that it is less then 150cc. Nothing otherwise will tell them the engine size, none of the your paper work will say.

3) You can't get individual vehicles CARB approved they have to be approved from the manufacturer for the given year and model. Actually you can but it will cost you 10s of thousands of dollars for CARB to do the test.

4) see #3, the DMV won't know what to do and the person you are dealing with might flag your bike and it will forever be in limbo.

5) as long as you can go the speed limit then you won't have any real problems. Some might pull you over and say something like it is not a good idea to ride your scoot on the freeway. They will give you their OPINION and say that even a 150+cc is not enough. Hell I've heard some even say that a 250cc is not enough, but this is only OPINION. I've been pulled over just going down the street and the cop's opinion was that ALL scooters are unsafe cause of their little wheels. I think he wanted to check to see if had a moto license.

GrantSR · Post by **GrantSR** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:51 am

Thanks so much for this information. It is clear and to the point.

DaBinChe wrote:I've been pulled over just going down the street and the cop's opinion was that ALL scooters are unsafe cause of their little wheels. I think he wanted to check to see if had a moto license.

Do you have brown skin?

DaBinChe · Post by **DaBinChe** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:59 pm

GrantSR wrote:Thanks so much for this information. It is clear and to the point.

DaBinChe wrote:I've been pulled over just going down the street and the cop's opinion was that ALL scooters are unsafe cause of their little wheels. I think he wanted to check to see if had a moto license.
Do you have brown skin?

No, I got yellow skin.

GrantSR · Post by **GrantSR** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:21 am

DaBinChe wrote:No, I got yellow skin.

That's enough for a lot of cops. Oh well. A lot of cops just don't like scooters.

Modern Buddy

C.A.R.B. certification for a kitted scooter.

C.A.R.B. certification for a kitted scooter.

Already gone ...