Modern Buddy

I finally got to take the class this week and passed! Yeah! Now, I will be able to get my full license and ride at night. Thanks for all the encouragement to take the class. It was hard but very beneficial. I am still sore, though. I normally do not ride for 3 hours or more at a time!

mrandmrslindholm wrote:I finally got to take the class this week and passed! Yeah! Now, I will be able to get my full license and ride at night. Thanks for all the encouragement to take the class. It was hard but very beneficial. I am still sore, though. I normally do not ride for 3 hours or more at a time!

Congratulations! It's a good course to learn those little and big safety items. I had a downpour on my first day! Sonny, the instructor, called it a training aid!

Yes, those instructors have quite a sense of humor.

Congrats! However, be cautious about any night riding...you may have good night vision, but many others (in cages) do not.

mrandmrslindholm wrote:I finally got to take the class this week and passed! Yeah! Now, I will be able to get my full license and ride at night. Thanks for all the encouragement to take the class. It was hard but very beneficial. I am still sore, though. I normally do not ride for 3 hours or more at a time!

Congratulations! Hey, I see you're in the Inland Empire. Every mid-May we do a ride from Wrightwood to Big Bear and back. Maybe you'll join us this year!

@teacherquinn-my husband scoots too on a Kymco. We might be interested in that ride. Where can I get more info as the time gets closer?

Congratulations! I assume you took the MSF Basic Rider Course? It's a good start but it doesn't, in my opinion, prepare you enough for riding on the road just yet.

Check out http://msgroup.org and specifically their safety tips pages for new riders: http://msgroup.org/Articles.aspx?Cat=1

http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=194

Probably the skill that is tops on the list a new rider really should get down pat is how to make tight right hand turns from a stop. I have received various incorrect information about how to do this and have finally learnt the safe and proper way to do this. You don't want to go forward a bit and then turn right. You just want to turn right from the stop, period.

1. At the intersection when you're stopped, turn your handlebar all the way to the right.
2. Lean your scooter a bit to the right while scooter is still stopped.
3. Check left and right to make sure you are safe to turn.
4. When ready, turn your head all the to the right and focus on a point far away.
5. Now throttle and go. You may find it useful to depress the rear brake a bit while throttling. This smooths out the throttling. Is the equivalent of friction zone on a motorcycle.

Turning your handlebar all the way to the right from a full stop and then making a turn seems like your scooter will fall. It's the rider skill that needs training. How do I know? I practised and practised. At first, it really felt like I couldn't do anything to not make my scooter fall but now I can do it. I still have more to practise though because I can't say I do this with absolute confidence.

Here is a good video with tips on how to safely make tight right turns from a stop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gzAgCSfnQM

The other thing as new rider that you should get down pat is be able to make a quick stop going at 20mph and stopping within 19 feet. This isn't hard to accomplish. What you do need to do though is get acquainted with whatever scooter (or motorcycle) you're riding and figure out how hard you need to squeeze to get this down to that distant.

Remember: rider error is the number one cause of accidents on scooters/motorcycles. If you can reduce (or eliminate!) errors that you cause, you will be that much safer.

===================

Ah a few other things for new riders that I'm learning and that they don't teach you in the MSF class:

When parking your scooter manually (e.g., backing it up while straddling it) you may find it helpful not to use the front brakes because if they do happen to lock up, the scooter will likely fall down. Use the rear brakes instead. And I've also found it helpful to turn off the engine while I straddle-walk the scooter. Unfortunately, because the scooter's clutch cannot manually disengage, it's easy to hit the throttle accidentally while pushing the scooter and accidentally making it run forward.

Congrats on passing!

I'd suggest you take teabow1's advice above with a grain of salt... you learned a lot in your MSF course and are most likely very well prepared to ride on the road!

Teabow1- just how often would you really want to turn IMMEDIATELY right from a stop? Doing so at a stop sign or stop light would aim you straight at the curb... think about where your wheel is when you stop. Behind the stop line, correct? I know you're really super hopped up on your new well-practiced trick of turning from a dead stop with your handlebar locked right just like Motorman but what your lack of experience on the road hasn't shown you is just how impractical and not-useful that skill is. Additionally, others, others with many many actual road miles, have pointed out to you that keeping your wheel pointed forward at a stop is good for other reasons, including being visible to oncoming traffic due to your headlight aim being connected to handlebar direction and being able to perform emergency evasive maneuvers.

I'm happy you are being safe and riding your own ride, but please don't spread this turn with the wheel locked dead right thing as "the skill that is tops on the list a new rider really should get down pat." It's just simply not true.

jmazza wrote:please don't spread this turn with the wheel locked dead right thing as "the skill that is tops on the list a new rider really should get down pat." It's just simply not true.

+1

jmazza wrote:Teabow1- just how often would you really want to turn IMMEDIATELY right from a stop? Doing so at a stop sign or stop light would aim you straight at the curb... think about where your wheel is when you stop. Behind the stop line, correct? I know you're really super hopped up on your new well-practiced trick of turning from a dead stop with your handlebar locked right just like Motorman but what your lack of experience on the road hasn't shown you is just how impractical and not-useful that skill is. Additionally, others, others with many many actual road miles, have pointed out to you that keeping your wheel pointed forward at a stop is good for other reasons, including being visible to oncoming traffic due to your headlight aim being connected to handlebar direction and being able to perform emergency evasive maneuvers.

I'm happy you are being safe and riding your own ride, but please don't spread this turn with the wheel locked dead right thing as "the skill that is tops on the list a new rider really should get down pat." It's just simply not true.

+2

Don't worry, at my age, I take everything with a grain of salt! Just because I am a new rider, does not mean I was born yesterday ! I appreciate everyone's concern about my safety. I am the biggest proponent for safety you will ever find. I try to continuously learn and I will continue to do so when it comes to safety as well. So, Lord willing, I will be scooting around for a long time!

teabow1 wrote:Probably the skill that is tops on the list a new rider really should get down pat is how to make tight right hand turns from a stop. I have received various incorrect information about how to do this and have finally learnt the safe and proper way to do this. You don't want to go forward a bit and then turn right. You just want to turn right from the stop, period.

1. At the intersection when you're stopped, turn your handlebar all the way to the right.
2. Lean your scooter a bit to the right while scooter is still stopped.
3. Check left and right to make sure you are safe to turn.
4. When ready, turn your head all the to the right and focus on a point far away.
5. Now throttle and go. You may find it useful to depress the rear brake a bit while throttling. This smooths out the throttling. Is the equivalent of friction zone on a motorcycle.

Turning your handlebar all the way to the right from a full stop and then making a turn seems like your scooter will fall. It's the rider skill that needs training. How do I know? I practised and practised. At first, it really felt like I couldn't do anything to not make my scooter fall but now I can do it. I still have more to practise though because I can't say I do this with absolute confidence.

Let me add my voice to the experienced riders here saying this is bad advice, particularly on a small-wheeled scooter.

It might make more sense on a motorcycle or something with 14" or larger wheels. Not all two wheelers handle the same.

In over 30,000 miles I've never made a right turn like this on a scooter and I've never had trouble making a controlled right turn. Look through the turn, countersteer, roll the throttle through the turn.

You should not need to drag the rear brake at all when making a right turn from a stop. That's really only necessary or useful when riding through fairly sharp curves or making U-turns and figure-8s. Whether on a Stella, a Buddy or other CVT scooter, riders should know how to use their clutch or throttle to make a right hand turn from a stop.

teabow1, I don't know where you learned the "proper" way to do this, but again, much the same as bicycles aren't scooters, neither are 600lb.+ motorcycles with 16" wheels. A 270lb. Buddy with 10" wheels and an automatic transmission handles and behaves much differently. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of physics and engineering.

ericalm, I don't know about small wheel scooter but it works on my BV 250. I didn't say one must use the rear brake while making this sharp right turn. I'm saying if you have trouble with it, you may try dragging your rear brakes. It's not a requirement. 

The advice I'm getting from is multiple. One from Ride Like a Pro, another from msgroup.org, and from CaptCrashIdaho a YouTube personality also active on msgroup.org. These aren't random websites. Many folks on msgroup.org are current or former MSF instructors. 

Here's a video with instructions on right turn from a stop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F_0ri2h ... ata_player

Here's another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gzAgCSf ... ata_player

If your scooter can make the tight right turn from a stop without turning the handlebar all the way, that's good. 

I was able to first achieve those tight right turns without the handlebar turned all the way to the right. But then I eventually was able to do it with it turned all the way. At first I too didn't believe my scooter could make those turns with handlebar turned all the way right. But eventually I got it.

jmazza wrote:.

I'm happy you are being safe and riding your own ride, but please don't spread this turn with the wheel locked dead right thing as "the skill that is tops on the list a new rider really should get down pat." It's just simply not true.

No need to take my word for it. I've considered what other safety experts have said and believe this is true. But folks should make their own choice. My sources, as I've mentioned a few times here but I'm not sure many are clicking on the link is http://msgroup.org

I make right turns like someone in their 90's and I know it.

Then again this is my first weekend on street tires (both on the Zuma and the Buddy). The Zuma stock tires, though excellent, are knobby and turn much differently.

[edited to correct link and for clarity ]

skully93 wrote:I make right turns like someone in their 90's and I know it.

Then again this is my first weekend on street tires (both on the Zuma and the Buddy). The Zuma stock tires, though excellent, are knobby and turn much differently.

With practice, you can do it. Check out this Parking lot practice sheet

http://msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=194&Set=171-204

And watch the videos I posted above.

And I just discovered this other tip sheet from the same author describing how in years of riding he didn't believe he could do 90 degree right turns until he conquered his own doubts. And in an instant could do it. Read the link below. It's a good story.

http://msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=239&Set=

My own short experience concurs. I had great doubts that I and my scooter could do those turns. Eventually I said f**k it let's just give it a go again (after trying many times) and I did it! Using the rear brakes helped, but I'm also convinced I can do it without dragging the brake. Actually, I have done it a few times without the rear brakes.

Well, everyone seeking advice on the Internet should consider both the source and the context.

teabow1, ALL of the advice you've linked to is oriented to large-wheel motorcycles. This is a thread posted by someone riding a BUDDY. It's not the same. You're insistence in transposing these things between vehicles is a bit frustrating.

You have 70 miles scooter riding experience on a BV250, yet you steadfastly refuse to accept the advice from riders with tens of thousands of miles experience on smaller scooters as well as large-wheeled ones and motorcycles. And against everything we say, you continue making recommendations that don't apply to the vehicle in question.

I don't really know how you can be so confident in what you're saying with absolutely zero experience on anything with less than 16"/14" wheels and a shorter wheelbase. Your insistence that you're right despite your lack of firsthand experience is a bit frustrating.

It's like watching a video online that shows you how to operate on a monkey, then thinking you know how to operate on a human without really having done either.

Having never driven a 'real' motorcycle, I couldn't say.

I know that the differences in my 50cc and 150cc, the thickness of tires (Buddy tires are much thinner!) and the overall profile are pretty big for a very similar weight.

Having less than 1k or so miles under my belt, I'm not someone to be giving 100% sure advice, but I would take advice from long term scoot riders, esp. those with experience on both.

skully93 wrote:Having never driven a 'real' motorcycle, I couldn't say.

I know that the differences in my 50cc and 150cc, the thickness of tires (Buddy tires are much thinner!) and the overall profile are pretty big for a very similar weight.

Having less than 1k or so miles under my belt, I'm not someone to be giving 100% sure advice, but I would take advice from long term scoot riders, esp. those with experience on both.

skully93, in my opinion, most of turning where you want to turn comes from looking through the turn. Even the site that teabow1 keeps referencing talks a lot about this- make sure to turn your whole head and look the way you want to go, and that will generally fix "turning like a 90-year-old disease." You'll find the Buddy to be extremely nimble and easy to turn. Practicing some tighter, low-speed turns in a parking lot is a great way to get a feel for it. But, in my experience (only about 10k miles but enough to have *some* experience!), every time I have turned wider than I want to or not gone where I was trying to, I wasn't looking through my turn. If you look right in front of you as you turn, you'll go wide. If you pick a spot in your new lane where you want to end up, you'll find that you end up there 99% of the time.

This principle is called target fixation and can work against you as well. Many people end up hitting curbs because they are afraid of hitting a curb so they look right at the curb. Guess where they end up? Same thing applies in emergency avoidance. When a car stops right in front of you, the tendency is to look right at the bumper which makes an emergency swerve much harder.

Hope that helps!

jmazza wrote:every time I have turned wider than I want to or not gone where I was trying to, I wasn't looking through my turn. If you look right in front of you as you turn, you'll go wide. If you pick a spot in your new lane where you want to end up, you'll find that you end up there 99% of the time.

Not only this, but if you find yourself going wide, you may often be able to turn your head away from that far-side curb or double-yellow line, look to where you wanted to be and salvage the turn - seemingly without any other effort. Like jmazza and others, including the MSF course, have said, your bike will usually go where your head points.

Syd wrote:.....your bike will usually go where your head points.

So, I guess that folks who ride with their heads up their butts should always make sure that their high beams are working properly.

Syd wrote:

jmazza wrote:every time I have turned wider than I want to or not gone where I was trying to, I wasn't looking through my turn. If you look right in front of you as you turn, you'll go wide. If you pick a spot in your new lane where you want to end up, you'll find that you end up there 99% of the time.

Not only this, but if you find yourself going wide, you may often be able to turn your head away from that far-side curb or double-yellow line, look to where you wanted to be and salvage the turn - seemingly without any other effort. Like jmazza and others, including the MSF course, have said, your bike will usually go where your head points.

In general, if you're falling into your turn, you're not going fast enough for your lean. If you're veering too wide you're either going too fast for your lean or not looking through.

Looking through turns is one of the first things I get sloppy about when I realize I've gotten a bit careless in my riding. That, and target fixation, often trip up even experienced riders. Almost every experienced rider I know who's gone down in a single-vehicle crash has done so because they handled a turn incorrectly, usually taking it too fast.

jmazza wrote: Teabow1- just how often would you really want to turn IMMEDIATELY right from a stop? Doing so at a stop sign or stop light would aim you straight at the curb... think about where your wheel is when you stop. Behind the stop line, correct? I know you're really super hopped up on your new well-practiced trick of turning from a dead stop with your handlebar locked right just like Motorman but what your lack of experience on the road hasn't shown you is just how impractical and not-useful that skill is. Additionally, others, others with many many actual road miles, have pointed out to you that keeping your wheel pointed forward at a stop is good for other reasons, including being visible to oncoming traffic due to your headlight aim being connected to handlebar direction and being able to perform emergency evasive maneuvers.

I'm happy you are being safe and riding your own ride, but please don't spread this turn with the wheel locked dead right thing as "the skill that is tops on the list a new rider really should get down pat." It's just simply not true.

+3

I fully realize that I'm not an admin or your mum and so what I am about to say really doesn't matter at all but PLEASE for the love of all that is good and pure turn off the safety videos and GO RIDE for a couple months before dispensing your not-totally-practical-or-applicable advice to riders just as new as yourself.

Mr/MrsLindholm, congrats to you and I'm sorry your congrats thread has been muddled slightly by our collective bickering.

teabow1 wrote:ericalm, I don't know about small wheel scooter but it works on my BV 250. I didn't say one must use the rear brake while making this sharp right turn. I'm saying if you have trouble with it, you may try dragging your rear brakes. It's not a requirement. 

The advice I'm getting from is multiple. One from Ride Like a Pro, another from msgroup.org, and from CaptCrashIdaho a YouTube personality also active on msgroup.org. These aren't random websites. Many folks on msgroup.org are current or former MSF instructors. 

Here's a video with instructions on right turn from a stop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F_0ri2h ... ata_player

Here's another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gzAgCSf ... ata_player

If your scooter can make the tight right turn from a stop without turning the handlebar all the way, that's good. 

I was able to first achieve those tight right turns without the handlebar turned all the way to the right. But then I eventually was able to do it with it turned all the way. At first I too didn't believe my scooter could make those turns with handlebar turned all the way right. But eventually I got it.

OK, I just have to say something as a person who's been riding since he was 6. No, I don't have any fancy accredidations or "safe rider" DVD's to my credit. Just many years survival riding in NYC, Phoenix, Belfast and Dallas: Some of the most non-friendly cities for 2 wheeled machines.

KEEP YOUR FOOT OFF THAT BRAKE IN THE TURN FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY!!!!

Brake drag is B-A-D! If you haven't reduced your speed into the turn enough before the apex, cut wide and hope for the best or lean HARD and ride it out, while ACCELERATING out from the apex. use your velocity and torque to ride you through the turn, along with looking through the turn and keep those eyes off the f'ing tarmac! If you gun it too hard or back off on power too much you will lose the consistent pull, and that's when you break traction. It's not something you can learn from a book, since when you know you have it right you can just feel the rear gripping "right". It simply takes practice. No book can tell you that.

Before you start spewing "advice" try actually RIDING. I'm sorry, but it's getting old.

Okay, I think we're just piling on at this point. The advice has been sufficiently countered. Let's move on…

I get Teabow1's point, but the wording is off. Full stop turn on a Buddy is a lot different from full stop turn on a BV250. If you turned the handlebars full stop on a Buddy, then followed that advice, you'd be in a ditch or on a sidewalk, or just on your side.

The tight right is a good skill to practice, but riding is a cumulative experience and practicing just one thing isn't the way to become a better rider. Unless you only ride in spastic 8' wide squares.