Opinion: Offered an '08 Rattler 110 for my '80 Vespa P200e

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:43 am

OK, so for those who may not know the backstory:

I was looking to get a new scoot months ago, and while I was dead set on a Stella, I was tempted by a 1980 Vespa P200e. It was a bit on the pricey side, but it was VERY clean and all stock. Soon I found out that no matter what I tried, Maricopa emissions just wouldn't play nice. It just *barely* doesn't pass. I've rebuilt the carb, changed all the lines and tuned everything to where it's running sweet. The only recourse is to change the rings and cylinder, but it runs so well it just seems an irritation. Then, I got a promotion that sends me 15 miles further North for work, AND we're moving from Mesa to Phoenix, adding another 15 to 20 miles to my daily commute overall!

So, I have offered the P for sale and have been entertaining trade offers. Most were of the Chinese scooter variety from morons thinking I was some sort of backberth

or offers for $1200 and a few dime bags of whatever... welcome to Mesa.

But I finally had an offer that interested me: 2008 California registered Genuine Rattler 110, 2k original miles, and pretty much stock. He's interested in trading this for the P200e. Now, if I had the wealth of a garage, tools and a much shorter commute, I would never give up the P200e, but I need a VERY durable bike that I don't mind tearing up, but one that will hold up. Also, we're moving to a smaller apartment, so I can't lock the Vespa in the upstairs apartment. The Rattler is just a less desirable theft target, let's be honest about that. The Vespa is constantly molested and I recently had some tools try to steal the emblems off of it!

I like the Rattler's rep as a durable bike with 2-stroke attitude. I'm not totally sold on it's looks, but with school getting heavy and my job demanding a VERY predictable mode of transport that won't randomly snap cables or get picky with gas, I need utility. It sure looks like a scooter that can tear it up, but am I making a huge mistake with the possible trade? The P200e is not outstanding by any means other than it's a clean North American model. No fancy mods, no special bits and no rare items on it. It's just a generic P200e which is why I'm thinking that I'm about breaking even on the deal.

Opinions? Thoughts? He is going to be in Phoenix for other business on Tuesday, so I have some time for input and more research.

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:55 am

Have you ever ridden a Rattler? They are a bit cramped, with your knees riding high. If you are comfortable on it, I say go for it. I was going to buy a Rattler until a rode a Buddy.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:59 am

Raiderfn311 wrote:Have you ever ridden a Rattler? They are a bit cramped, with your knees riding high. If you are comfortable on it, I say go for it. I was going to buy a Rattler until a rode a Buddy.

They are kind of hard to find around here, so I haven't had the chance. I'm 5'10", 150lbs and have a 30" inseam. I don't imagine I'll have too much issue, but I do have long orangutang arms. I know I thought of the Buddy as a bit cramped before, but I had been riding a Harley for months before sitting on one of those so I think my perspectives were a bit skewed after riding a large bike for that amount of time

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:43 am

Well, the other thing to say is that the Rattler has been discontinued. I presume there won't be any problem with parts for a while, but eventually....

mattgordon · Post by **mattgordon** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:08 am

My adult son and I each had them, enjoyed the heck out of them too!

They were quite reliable, in a two-stroke, check-the-fasteners-weekly-and-expect-some-extra-care-and-feeding kinda way!

We rocked them hard, up into the Cleveland National Forest away from any kind of civilization, and of course around town.

Good clean fun.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:07 am

Personally I would rock the P. Check compression etc and if needed slap a new top end on the P200 You can do it with a Piaggio stock kit for about $300 or less with an aftermarket stock kit (I would stick with Piaggio) and 2-3 hours work if it is your first time. Don't even need to drop the motor.

http://www.scooterworks.com/Cylinder-As ... 9C485.aspx

Whatever you decide let us know!

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:35 am

Don't do it! Stay with the P cos it called to you. You've already put the effort into getting it running well you just gotta go a bit further. I think you'll regret it. I do my head in knowing that I could have got the Stella but I went with the 170i. Even tho I like my scoot, I just think I should've went with my gut.

brianwheelies · Post by **brianwheelies** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:33 am

I can't vouch for the P200e but I can say my Rattler 50 has been a gas to ride. One warranty issue in the beginning was fixed and I have put about 3,000 miles on in six months. I find the riding position comfortable and have the same inseam as you do. Funny I found the Rattler to have more room than the Buddy I was also looking at(my feet are too big for Buddies).

I assume the Rattler 110 will be as reliable and durable as mine but with double the fun factor.

Having a heck of a time reselling mine though. Keep that in consideration, the resale of the Rattler may not be as good.

agrogod · Post by **agrogod** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:10 am

I have never been on a Rat but my R50 is essentially the same in design. At 5'11" and 230# I have never felt cramped for space. If you can get past the bare handlebar look it may be a good trade.
If my dealer had Rat's in stock when I purchased my R50 I may have had a harder decision to make.

Chilly · Post by **Chilly** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:19 pm

I wanted a Rattler before I got my buddy but after a lot of research decided on the buddy for reliability. The Rattler doesn't appear to have the same reliability as the buddy. I don't think it's unreliable but you don't hear a lot of 30k 40k riders. Also it's discontinued. As far as theft I would think the rattler with its badass looks would be a huge target. All that said I want a rattler for a second ride, one I would plan on working on and tinkering with plenty.

mattgordon · Post by **mattgordon** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:49 pm

brianwheelies wrote:
Having a heck of a time reselling mine though. Keep that in consideration, the resale of the Rattler may not be as good.

It's market conditions and nothing more.

I had a heck of a time selling an immaculate Italia 125 and an immaculate Blackjack. Took longer than any other vehicles I've ever sold in the last 30 years.

Patience.

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:12 pm

neotrotsky wrote:
Raiderfn311 wrote:Have you ever ridden a Rattler? They are a bit cramped, with your knees riding high. If you are comfortable on it, I say go for it. I was going to buy a Rattler until a rode a Buddy.
They are kind of hard to find around here, so I haven't had the chance. I'm 5'10", 150lbs and have a 30" inseam. I don't imagine I'll have too much issue, but I do have long orangutang arms. I know I thought of the Buddy as a bit cramped before, but I had been riding a Harley for months before sitting on one of those so I think my perspectives were a bit skewed after riding a large bike for that amount of time

Love mine. 30" inseam will have you on your toes riding a rattler. Two strokes are so easy to work on, I'm not worried about a rebuild when the time comes.

Have you seen pete?

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neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:35 pm

All great perspectives! Trust me, if I could keep the P I would, but my current situation is not conducive to having a vintage scooter. I have NO place to work on it, as well as not having the proper tools anymore (my ex swiped them in the break up and refused to give them back

), so new tools would have to be bought as well as a place to work on it. Also, that's no guarantee that it will pass emissions. I already did the rings and a re-hone and it flunked emissions! Carb's been rebuilt, ignition redone... Arizona just hates this bike. I really don't want to give up the power of a two stroke, but this one is a pain to get legal!

Also, I can't sell this. I'm offering it for 1800 and I still get every hillbilly wanting a "warranty" with it for 1300! The market is horrible for selling a bike, and this one is a CLEAN one. Lastly, it's driving a wedge into my marriage. We *need* two sets of reliable wheels, and my commute has only grown by another 20 miles each way a day. Granted a Buddy would be my first choice, but the low miles (only 2k miles) on the Rattler and great reviews as well as it being a Genuine scooter do help. I would prefer a PCX or a Buddy, but this is more than capable of rough treatment while I finish my degree. Hopefully, after we settle the bankruptcy I can afford to rent a place to keep a bike and perhaps build up a Vespa/Stella project from the ground up like I want to, but right now having a bike that isn't even able to be plated is just a burden, and I have to do something

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:42 pm

Set the carb lean, crank up the idle, get the motor hot and then have it tested. If it won't pass after that then trade it.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:47 pm

Lotrat wrote:Set the carb lean, crank up the idle, get the motor hot and then have it tested. If it won't pass after that then trade it.

\

Done that and every other witch doctor trick in the book. I've spent nearly 6 months fighting Arizona and their innane laws. They wont even exempt the bike for a 1 time waiver because it's a 2 stroke

The rattler at least uses less oil per liter of fuel by far and is a more modern design. I have no illusions that I will keep this scooter for more than 2 years max, and as I said once we clear the bankruptcy another bike IS in the cards

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:54 pm

Sounds like your minds already made up.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:56 pm

Drum Pro wrote:Sounds like your minds already made up.

Not willingly. I would prefer a Buddy or a Blackjack since it will be closer to what I've put into this bike. I am for the record NOT pleased with getting rid of the P

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:59 pm

How much are you asking for the P? I don't get why they won't pass it. seems a bit strange to me.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:15 pm

Drum Pro wrote:How much are you asking for the P? I don't get why they won't pass it. seems a bit strange to me.

1800. Way low in my opinion, but hey... market and all. The bike runs fantastic! It's a clean bike and needs nothing. I can't simply afford a bike I cannot legally ride. Even after sitting for weeks it starts right up on the first kick. I'm done trying to bend will to the Arizona Department of Transportation. Remember that Maricopa County's emissions laws are even more strict than California and it's the ONLY county in the US that requires FULL emissions test of motorbikes. Anywhere else in the UK, Canada or the US would be no problem.

My wife is tired of me using her car to get to work while she must take the bus to get home from her job. And, the lifters are going out on our Vitara

We need a solution now, even if it's one I don't like. As long as the Rattler has a good enough rep to get me 10 to 15k miles it will work. It's not a matter of what I *want* right now. I mean, a Buddy would be pretty cool, and a Piaggio Fly 150 would be preferred but I have to take what we can get. And soon...

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:46 pm

Have you seen what you could get on a trade in? A p series can be turned around on the quick. Have you called round the area to the local shops to see if you could get a swap for a used Buddy?

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:47 pm

neotrotsky wrote: As long as the Rattler has a good enough rep to get me 10 to 15k miles it will work. It's not a matter of what I *want* right now. I mean, a Buddy would be pretty cool, and a Piaggio Fly 150 would be preferred but I have to take what we can get. And soon...

Well, it isn't really the rep that is going to get you to work every day

. I have never even ridden a Rattler so I will offer no opinions about its reliability. There are some other bikes out there that can be bought at low prices used and have demonstrated reliability. I'd say the Fly 150 is one of them as you suggest. Some of the older Hondas and Yamahas also fall in this category. And then there are any number of small to medium-sized motorcycles. Inexpensive to buy used and inexpensive to maintain. I'll admit that looking for a trade limits your options. - but your asking price for the P seems more than reasonable to me.

I also see a good deal on a Buddy in your area. That would seem to fill the bill as far as what you want to do. (just the small matter of money - sigh!)

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/mcy/2750165069.html

Scalpel · Post by **Scalpel** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:10 pm

I'll be the lone voice suggesting that the Rattler 110 is actually a pretty decent scooter. As long as you're keeping the cruising speed around 45-50, it'll do that all day with no problem.

When I owned mine I used synthetic oil for both the crankcase and the oil reservoir, and changed out the crankcase every 2000 miles. Carry a small toolkit for tightening any bolts that might rattle loose, plus an extra quart of oil, and you're golden. The ergos on it are great, and the little notched cut-outs in the lower front fairing let you stretch out your legs on long trips. One caution though: there are virtually zero performance parts made for the Rattler. If you're thinking about trying to "hop it up" later, forget it. However it's already pretty peppy in its stock configuration.

I rode mine from Seattle, WA to Canada and back one weekend, plus tons of scooter and motorcycle rallies, commuting every day, etc. and had very few problems. I broke a belt once, but that was mainly due to me not replacing it at the recommended service interval. Over all though, it was a great scooter and I loved riding it.

Wheelz · Post by **Wheelz** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:21 pm

I have over 20k on my first Rattler, and I did blow it up after the first couple of months but I assume that was my fault, rode it a bit hard for the first couple thousand and I paid for it...
Just had a head gasket blow on it, but as I've said I ride it quite a bit, bound to happen sooner or later.
New belt and new sliders but other than that I have had no mechanical issues.
I love my Rattler soo much so I bought another one, w/ all kinds of mods done to it, I've had more problems with the kitted one than the one that I have left bone stock since purchasing it over two years ago.
I'm 6 ft about 220 and it fits me just fine. As Scalpel said it has those cut out at the front for your feet to kick out. If the P is a problem, get the Rat it won't let ya down, or it shouldn't.

mattgordon · Post by **mattgordon** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:57 pm

Scalpel wrote:
When I owned mine I used synthetic oil for both the crankcase and the oil reservoir, and changed out the crankcase every 2000 miles.

I'm assuming you mean the gearbox oil, not crankcase....since its a 2t? Def a good idea to change frequently as it is often overlooked.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:26 am

You should move out to AJ. I don't think Pinal County has emission testing, does it?

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:30 am

mattgordon wrote:
Scalpel wrote:
When I owned mine I used synthetic oil for both the crankcase and the oil reservoir, and changed out the crankcase every 2000 miles.
I'm assuming you mean the gearbox oil, not crankcase....since its a 2t? Def a good idea to change frequently as it is often overlooked.

I change the gear-oil when I change my 4t engine oil because its so easy to do so. Cant hurt and its so cheap. Sorry to stray from topic.

Scalpel · Post by **Scalpel** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:15 am

mattgordon wrote:I'm assuming you mean the gearbox oil, not crankcase....since its a 2t? Def a good idea to change frequently as it is often overlooked.

Yeah, I'm an idiot, gearbox is what I should've said...

The 2000 mile frequency was probably way too often. I could've done 3000 with no problem, but when you're only swapping out 90cc of oil, why not do it a little too often?

mattgordon · Post by **mattgordon** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:11 am

Scalpel wrote:
mattgordon wrote:I'm assuming you mean the gearbox oil, not crankcase....since its a 2t? Def a good idea to change frequently as it is often overlooked.
Yeah, I'm an idiot, gearbox is what I should've said...

The 2000 mile frequency was probably way too often. I could've done 3000 with no problem, but when you're only swapping out 90cc of oil, why not do it a little too often?

Agreed. You cant overchange oil, especially such a small quantity. Cheap insurance.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:55 am

Syd wrote:You should move out to AJ. I don't think Pinal County has emission testing, does it?

Oh HELL no! I'm not stepping one foot into "Redneckistain" without being well armed and with an exit strategy. I've seen things out there man...

We're actually moving into downtown Phoenix in one of the new Urban Revitalization zones that were once called "Taxpayer waste" by some in AZ. There's an awesome 1950's motel that's been converted into apartments and artist galleries, and for a great price. It's near all of the small new theaters and galleries that have sprung up on Grand Avenue now that the city bought out all the crackhouses and sold them to artists and developers. I never thought 5 years ago that I'd be actually interested in living on what used to be Phoenix's Skid Row, but now... it's got some great things going for it.

As for the observations, I know a Buddy would be perfect as would a Fly 150. The problem is cash. I *really* should of been more realistic on our living situation before getting the bike. My wife didn't offer the 'typical' spousal resistance since this was my first bike after being diagnosed as cancer-free, and frankly it's just been a twist of the knife to finally have a bike after being told I may not be able to ride again, only to not be ALLOWED to ride it! Yes, a top end rebuild is easy, but without the facilities and the way to physically drag it to the emissions station (since I cannot get any more temp plates for it being over the max and the fact that we have no truck, nor anyone we know with a truck) it's nearly moot.

I'm still on the fence about the Rattler. 2-stroke performance sounds great and I'm a fan of 2-stroke... I really am! I just do NOT like the way it looks. I'm not buying for pretty, but for practical. And, this fits what an in-town scooter in a place like Phoenix needs to be: Fast on acceleration, durable and trustworthy. It's just not a bike I'd show off, and in my opinion I'm wary of investing in that kind of machine. Even my Vitara is a point of pride for me to own: It's a damn good SUV for a cheap price! But, as I said before, NO ONE is buying vintage bikes and thinks everyone will give away what they have for pennies on the dollar because of "this economy"

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:56 pm

Like mamma says, beggars can't be choosers.

How much time do you have until you "have to" get rid of the scooter or fix it?

You have a 1980 scooter with an unknown issue that won't allow it to pass emissions testing. If I was in the market for a scooter, I wouldn't buy yours just for that fact. There are others out there that work. So you either need to fix it or or sell it for what every you can get to someone with the time, money, and or knowledge to fix it. Dems da facts.

There's never enough time so.... You got a guy on the hook for a working scooter. Is it worth more than you think you can get for yours in the time you have? Maybe maybe not, but you are the one in the pickle. Make the trade, get legal, ride it for awhile. You now have all the time in he world to sell or trade it and to find the scooter you really want. Write the loss off to hobby expenses.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:58 pm

Lotrat wrote: Write the loss off to hobby expenses.

I like your attitude!

Gosh knows I've done that more than once.

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:36 pm

That is a good attitude to have if you have to give something up! I remember having to do the same thing only with the 2nd drum set I owned. I was living in Hollywood and my street didn't have permit parking so I was getting tickets left and right till they put a boot on my car. so I did the only thing I could at the time and that was to sell my set. Years later I ended up getting the exact same set only different color. (7 pc. Yamaha maple custom)

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:37 am

Well, this is an interesting twist:

The guy who wanted to do the trade...well, he wasn't exactly up front. Turns out, he's a DEALER of scooters. And, not just any scooters, but GENUINE scooters at that along with other vintage scooters and Harley Davidsons! The Rattler very well could be a discontinued floor model by my suspicions, especially since the 110 was discontinued. But, how do I know? All I know is that he made no mention that he sells bikes for a living.

I'm sure some would say "What's the big deal"? Well, true, that wouldn't be a big deal if it weren't for the fact the buyer made NO mention that they were a commercial group and not just a private party. He made it sound in his emails that he was a private party and not someone who makes a living selling bikes. I don't know... I just dislike it when someone hides facts like that from me. I told him that I'm not interested in my bike being flipped and not actually being up front about what kind of buyer he was. So, the bike is not being traded. After dealing with another couple who had NO idea about the P200e and honestly thought that a Vietnam restoration was possibly a better deal (they've never ridden before and this would be their first bike), I've decided that I have no choice but to keep it.

I never thought I'd see the day when I couldn't sell a VESPA!

There are some pretty cheap and skeevy people out there man... Now, the resulting argument from the wife about how we're going to find the cash and the space to rebuild this proper now that it's staying.

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:50 am

What's the top speed of a P200e anyway? Well look at it this way you get to keep your scoot and might be even able to find a way to pass it. Have you tried taking it to the college? Where I live the automotive department has students cars they work on all the time. Maybe one of the instructors might/should know why it wont pass + they have to have the tools.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:04 am

Drum Pro wrote:What's the top speed of a P200e anyway? Well look at it this way you get to keep your scoot and might be even able to find a way to pass it. Have you tried taking it to the college? Where I live the automotive department has students cars they work on all the time. Maybe one of the instructors might/should know why it wont pass + they have to have the tools.

I know how to rebuild it, but the problem is the cost and the space. I won't trust the scooter to a bunch of "learning" mechanics. No offense, I'm sure they're awesome but at the same time this is my bike, and I've heard some horror stories from the MMI here. They're great if you have a Ninja or Harley, but anything else and it's questionable what parts you get and if they even know how it goes together

The bike has had EVERYTHING done except a brand new piston and cylinder. Literally. Even had the carb rebuilt AGAIN by a local shop that does decent work on Vintage scoots, and while the carb now performs better than ever, it still won't pass. Living in an apartment and not having my tools anymore means that I have to find a place, buy all new specialty tools, buy the parts (obviously) and truck it to the place since I'm maxed on my total allotment of temporary plates for the next year. And, since I'm always the one out of the people I know hauling stuff for everyone else, no one has a truck or trailer for me to borrow, so I have to rent or buy one.

I *want* to keep this bike, but it will cost me at least another grand on top of what I paid to get it to reliable condition where I can commute on it 80 miles a day minimum. Still haven't attacked the problem of actually storing the bike at my (hopefully) new apartment because they have no place to lock the bike or otherwise park it (they don't even have light poles

). Of course, my wife wants me to keep the bike, but I have to come up with the money to keep it. She likes the idea of having a vintage bike in the family, but I have to deal with the realities of it.

If I had shop space I could get the bike to cheap, it would make life SO much easier and cheaper. But, I'm the guy everyone gets to fix THEIR stuff. When I need the hand... well, I only get to rely on myself.

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:23 am

Sorry to read bout that.

I'd be calling in the favors sprinkled with an extra bit of guilt on top.

(or beg my pals).

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:26 am

Drum Pro wrote:Sorry to read bout that. I'd be calling in the favors sprinkled with an extra bit of guilt on top. (or beg my pals).

Most of my pals either are more broke than I, and the others aren't too keen on putting themselves out. Me and my wife have been finding ourselves reconsidering the group we used to hang with now that we have respectable jobs and education, and the rest of the old pack, well, don't. It shows.

That and the remainder are artists who don't know one thing about wrenching (hence why they call me) and don't even own anything that resembles a truck because that would be too mainstream/capitalist/environmentally unfriendly/redneck-ish. Yet they were ALL upset when I sold my '60 Apache because I couldn't afford the gas anymore

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:33 am

Neo, I am not really sure that your bike in itself has a problem passing emission as much as it being a matter of emission regulations simply being too strict for any P200 to pass them altogether.
Look at what they had to do to get the 2T stella to pass emissions in all states but Cali, slap a catalytic converter on it which greatly reduced flow. It is so bad that simply bolting on a Sito+, which is basically the same pipe without the catalytic converter greatly improves performance. Sounds to me like the only way to pass the test is to figure out how to strap a catalytic exhaust to it just long enough to pass the test and swap it out as soon as you get it certified. Or perhaps down-jet it to the point that it simply doesn't use enough gas to be over the emission limit... now that may be a problem if you are running on premix but if your bike has had an oil mixer fitted it shouldn't hurt anything.

Also, have you tried looking into allowances made for older vehicles? I know in some places an 80's vehicle will allow you to obtain an 'antique' plate and be exempt from emission tests.

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:34 am

Rock n hard place and your right in the middle. been there far too many times to count.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:18 am

Lokky wrote:Neo, I am not really sure that your bike in itself has a problem passing emission as much as it being a matter of emission regulations simply being too strict for any P200 to pass them altogether.
Look at what they had to do to get the 2T stella to pass emissions in all states but Cali, slap a catalytic converter on it which greatly reduced flow. It is so bad that simply bolting on a Sito+, which is basically the same pipe without the catalytic converter greatly improves performance. Sounds to me like the only way to pass the test is to figure out how to strap a catalytic exhaust to it just long enough to pass the test and swap it out as soon as you get it certified. Or perhaps down-jet it to the point that it simply doesn't use enough gas to be over the emission limit... now that may be a problem if you are running on premix but if your bike has had an oil mixer fitted it shouldn't hurt anything.

Also, have you tried looking into allowances made for older vehicles? I know in some places an 80's vehicle will allow you to obtain an 'antique' plate and be exempt from emission tests.

Been down that route: Bike must be older than 1966. I *could* get historic auto insurance, but the Vespa isn't considered a "collectable" bike and I'd have to have a locked garage on property to qualify. I'm just going to replace the cylinder, keep the 20mm carb on and hope for the best. Once I find a place and once my grant check comes in I can get the tools and parts. I was hoping to get a new AR this year, but the bike kind of takes priority. I really can't wait until I get the certifications I need to start asking for serious money as an audio engineer...

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:51 am

neotrotsky wrote:Well, this is an interesting twist:

The guy who wanted to do the trade...well, he wasn't exactly up front. Turns out, he's a DEALER of scooters. And, not just any scooters, but GENUINE scooters at that along with other vintage scooters and Harley Davidsons! The Rattler very well could be a discontinued floor model by my suspicions, especially since the 110 was discontinued. But, how do I know? All I know is that he made no mention that he sells bikes for a living.

I'm sure some would say "What's the big deal"? Well, true, that wouldn't be a big deal if it weren't for the fact the buyer made NO mention that they were a commercial group and not just a private party. He made it sound in his emails that he was a private party and not someone who makes a living selling bikes. I don't know... I just dislike it when someone hides facts like that from me. I told him that I'm not interested in my bike being flipped and not actually being up front about what kind of buyer he was. So, the bike is not being traded. After dealing with another couple who had NO idea about the P200e and honestly thought that a Vietnam restoration was possibly a better deal (they've never ridden before and this would be their first bike), I've decided that I have no choice but to keep it.

I never thought I'd see the day when I couldn't sell a VESPA! There are some pretty cheap and skeevy people out there man... Now, the resulting argument from the wife about how we're going to find the cash and the space to rebuild this proper now that it's staying.

So if the Rat is new, and the guy is still a Genuine dealer, would the Rat come with a warranty? If that's the case, I don't see a problem.

Really, once the P is in the hands of another person, what the person does with it (like sell it to someone he knows that's looking for a P), is really none of your business. And he really doesn't need to tell you what he's going to do with it. You get what you want (his Rattler 110) he gets what he wants (your P).

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:29 am

OK one last thing I would try to get it to pass. Find a catalyzed exhaust from a modern PX. Most people replace these so you should be able to find one. Get an exhaust adaptor and stick it on for inspection. It will not run great but it may get you to pass. Then put your old exhaust back on

Roose Hurro · Post by **Roose Hurro** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:55 am

neotrotsky wrote:Been down that route: Bike must be older than 1966. I *could* get historic auto insurance, but the Vespa isn't considered a "collectable" bike and I'd have to have a locked garage on property to qualify. I'm just going to replace the cylinder, keep the 20mm carb on and hope for the best. Once I find a place and once my grant check comes in I can get the tools and parts. I was hoping to get a new AR this year, but the bike kind of takes priority. I really can't wait until I get the certifications I need to start asking for serious money as an audio engineer...

As in rifle?

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:20 am

I have been doing some consideration (as well as a lovely argument with my wife over things...) and I have emailed the seller of the Rattler that I am still interested. Of course, he may turn his nose up at the P for some reason. But I do think that this bike just isn't a proper fit for us right now. It REALLY upsets me since I really *want* to have a shifter scooter in my life again, but unlike when I had my Stella before I have to take other people into consideration. With the costs of parts to fix it proper, transport, storage and fees it is an extra expense we have not counted on, and could take another 2 to 4 weeks to fully fix with our schedules on top of needing to have major engine repair done on our Vitara. And, we will be moving across town and I have several major shows this month that I need to get to without fail.

I appreciate once again the ability to use you guys as a sounding board. There have been some great ideas on how to get the Vespa to pass emissions, but as someone else on here mentioned, sometimes you need to cut your losses. Either way this bike will cost me money, and I just have to determine how best to judge the loss. It is coming from a Genuine dealer, so I have faith that it's been maintained to proper specifications. Calculating my commute on a 7 day workweek, I will be putting 9,000 miles per year on the bike. For a Genuine scooter unmodified, even a two stroke, that's not an issue. Right now, if the seller still is interested, it looks like the logical if not less-than-perfect solution.

And, yes, AR as in rifle. Was really hoping to replace my Colt I had to sell last summer when I was out of work before I started school, but that is again an expensive hobby I may have to compromise on. I just don't feel comfortable without a main rifle in the home. It's just not like me since I've been 18.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:48 am

If going with the Buck 10 is the right way to go just remember. There are going to be a lot of 2t shifty scooters around for a long time...there will be another one in your future...something to look forward to!

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:11 pm

neotrotsky wrote:I have been doing some consideration (as well as a lovely argument with my wife over things...) and I have emailed the seller of the Rattler that I am still interested. Of course, he may turn his nose up at the P for some reason. But I do think that this bike just isn't a proper fit for us right now. It REALLY upsets me since I really *want* to have a shifter scooter in my life again, but unlike when I had my Stella before I have to take other people into consideration. With the costs of parts to fix it proper, transport, storage and fees it is an extra expense we have not counted on, and could take another 2 to 4 weeks to fully fix with our schedules on top of needing to have major engine repair done on our Vitara. And, we will be moving across town and I have several major shows this month that I need to get to without fail.

I appreciate once again the ability to use you guys as a sounding board. There have been some great ideas on how to get the Vespa to pass emissions, but as someone else on here mentioned, sometimes you need to cut your losses. Either way this bike will cost me money, and I just have to determine how best to judge the loss. It is coming from a Genuine dealer, so I have faith that it's been maintained to proper specifications. Calculating my commute on a 7 day workweek, I will be putting 9,000 miles per year on the bike. For a Genuine scooter unmodified, even a two stroke, that's not an issue. Right now, if the seller still is interested, it looks like the logical if not less-than-perfect solution.

And, yes, AR as in rifle. Was really hoping to replace my Colt I had to sell last summer when I was out of work before I started school, but that is again an expensive hobby I may have to compromise on. I just don't feel comfortable without a main rifle in the home. It's just not like me since I've been 18.

Sounds like the eternal struggle between what we want and what we should have gotten six months ago. Been there.

pattio · Post by **pattio** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:33 pm

I've been watching this thread with interest since I've got skin in just about every aspect of the story: I'm an owner of both a buck-ten Rattler and several Ps, and I've had many an occasion to bemoan both the thin market for vintage bikes and try to move stale new bikes off my floor by whatever means necessary.

In my dealer days I got to be a part of the process by which a lot of people came to the realization that their vehicle was going to 'cost' them a hell of a lot more money than it would ever be 'worth '. Add to that the challenges of liquidity and you can bet that most any of us, on either side of the retail counter, feel pretty much boned when it comes to buying or selling a scoot.

I know nothing about the dealer who contacted you about the potential trade, but I would like to throw you some guesses based on my experience. While your bike is Your Bike, The Bike, and your only hand to play, he is most likely managing a group of scooters in his inventory, and he needs to keep that inventory churning. A stale bike like a discontinued buck-ten is doing him no favors, and after you try moving it near the door or putting a bow on it eventually you have to try other ways to get it out of your life. Among shopkeepers, you may sometimes find this referred to as 'rolling the dice', referring to the idea of making a low or no-profit transaction for the sake of churning inventory and not becoming a museum.

He would like to get a bike off his floor, and you have a sound vintage scoot, and neither of you can find a darn soul with two nickels and a clue to rub together to buy them off you. So you might as well at least try a dance. He's in a position to make your emissions woes and your antique hairdryer woes disappear if he trades you something more modern. You're in a position to take a stale oddball off his hands and provide him the chance to roll his dice again. My advice IMHO, take it slow and friendly, and see what else he might have to trade. Look at yourself as being in a position to help each other, and there may be a way for both parties to get to a better position without it being much of a money thing.

SYMbionic Duo · Post by **SYMbionic Duo** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:35 pm

If the snow weren't on the ground here in MN, I would ride the blackjack down there and do a trade.

It would be a good excuse to do a road trip.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:16 pm

Actually all this talk of trading for a Rattler brings up an interesting question. Have you offered the P as a trade? On SoCal as well as Arizona CraigsLists? Often folks have something (a decent scooter in this case) to trade when they don't have cash. Seems like a P in good condition would be seen as a desirable trade by many.

jijifer · Post by **jijifer** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:29 pm

I think you're troubles selling are 3fold:

1) winter
2) post christmas - pre tax refund
3) scoot can't be registered as-is so it's one that's bought as project.

Since it's a project bike, everyone will be negotiating because they, like you, probably have to explain it to a sig other who's sick and tired of loaning car and all the projects taking up the garage

.

If you can find a solution until Spring, you can likely get more for you P.

And my slogan is always "buy nice or buy twice". you're on the twice schedule

Rat Buck 10's may be hard to sell (hence one collecting dust on the dealer's floor) such that if you settle for a scoot that doesn't flip your skirt you may be in a similar situation in 6mos and getting even LESS for the bike.

this time, if you can, wait for the RIGHT bike, you'll be better off.

I'd suggest at least 150cc for a daily commute in traffic that is more than 20miles. just gives you more options for quick acceleration out of bad situations and higher top speed so you can travel on more roads.

Good luck!

Modern Buddy

Opinion: Offered an '08 Rattler 110 for my '80 Vespa P200e

Opinion: Offered an '08 Rattler 110 for my '80 Vespa P200e

Had 2