How low can you go? Leaning angle question....

Tenchi · Post by **Tenchi** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:55 pm

Granted, in my younger days, I was probably a little more adventurous/aggressive when riding my motorcycles with their big, fat tires, but I keep reading about Buddy owners scraping their kick or center stands on a curve. I am still a little spooked about my ten inch tires, and take corners rather conservatively (read, chicken). Are the stock tires that sticky that on a clean, dry street, you can hold the line at speed? When I rode with Amerivespa 2009 on the way to Alice's restaurant, I remember a couple of riders failed to negotiate curves and ended up (no real injuries, thank goodness) in the bushes. Without tumbling into a sidewalk, how can you tell when you have reached the limit? I am only asking in the event I have to avoid a cager and don't want to have to replace parts (on myself or my scoot).

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:00 pm

As a fellow corner-chicken, I can say that as long as you keep a fairly constant throttle on em, you can negotiate a pretty hard lean. I haven't scraped my centerstand yet but I've wondered if I couldn't just reach out and touch the pavement if I wanted.

KABarash · Post by **KABarash** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:26 pm

I suppose I can say both, I'm a 'corner chicken' yet my son, who rides an R6, accuses me of being a knee drager! I've scraped my centerstand on both sides many times. It is a 'wake up call' sometimes!
Don't push it, ride the way you feel most confident.....
There's plenty of hazards and variables to dael with out there.

jmazza · Post by **jmazza** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:54 pm

With the right tires you can lean pretty far and push the Buddy on corners. My stock tires were the old Shinko whitewalls and I wouldn't push them at all but with Michelin S1s I was able to feel very confident in turns. I didn't try to push it but I never felt I had to slow down drastically to turn.

I put all that in past tense because I have been more cautious since my crash (which had nothing to do with turning to hard but still I guess I'm a bit more nervous).

I've scraped the center stand 2-3 times and at least 1 or 2 of them were due to some suspension compression during a turn- like leaving a driveway and turning.

pdxrita · Post by **pdxrita** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:51 am

I think the tires are perfectly capable of holding the lean. The real limitations are the rider, the road conditions, and yes, that pesky center stand. If you, as the rider, can hold the lean without freaking out and hitting the brakes, and you don't hit anything slippery (dirt, water, oil, etc.), and you don't lean so far as to make the kickstand into a pivot point, then yes, the tires are capable. Personally, I've hit the centerstand once and I didn't like it. But... at the same time... I felt kinda proud to achieve that landmark.

Tocsik · Post by **Tocsik** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:05 am

Oh, they'll lean alright.
I've scraped my exhaust header on the right and I've scraped the center stand on the left and even popped the rear wheel up when hitting the center stand too hard on a left turn with bad camber.
I have been lucky not to have laid it down or worse with these turns.

Scooters in general just don't have the clearance for that kind of cornering. Particularly 10" wheels + the floorboard.
I just had to tone it down from my youth when I cafe'd my Yamaha 400 with drop bars, chopped pipes and a quarter fairing

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:26 am

It's not the amount of lean you have to worry about, it's your speed going into the turns. If you have to lean it far enough that you hit the stand, you're going too fast.

I hit that stand my first time on a Buddy! You have to lean pretty far to hit it, but many of us have done it at least a couple of times. I'd wager we're also the more, um, aggressive riders of the bunch.

I have seen many riders take some seriously tight turns on Buddys at good speeds without hitting the stand. I've only seen one person go down from hitting it and, truth be told, he was showboating and leaning it much farther than necessary on a slight curve.

It's all about practice and building your confidence over time. It's also about not getting overconfident or succumbing to jackassery. Almost every experienced rider I know who has gone down in a single-vehicle crash was taking a turn too fast. That goes for me, too, even though I already knew that.

Tocsik · Post by **Tocsik** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:40 pm

I would add that I adopt a different riding style depending on my mood and the roads I am on.

I sit toward the middle/back of the seat for my commutes in traffic when I won't be leaning as much or traveling as fast. But when I'm out having fun (or get to a point in my commute where the traffic thins and speed picks up), I sit more toward the front of the seat because I get better control of the bike from there.

For cornering, I have started using the method of sliding slightly to the side/edge of the seat that would be inside the turn and leaning my body out more and leaning the scooter less. This allows you to take turns faster with less bike angle.

You can see this technique if you search Youtube for some scooter racing videos. You don't have to lean your body out all that much. Just shifting your weight to the side a little actually helps a lot.

BevoLJ · Post by **BevoLJ** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:26 pm

I have only had my scooter a few months and am new to riding, but I am a total chicken cornerer. lol.

The only times I make quick turns is if there is a car that will not get right off my tail and will not pass me. I usually turn off to swing back behind them so I have piece of mind. But I am afraid to slow down to much to turn because they clearly don't seem to care about me and I fear they will hit me if I turn to slow. So that is the only times I turn fast, and only because I have more fear of the person right on my back tire than I do of turning to fast. And I from my limited experience I can make some crazy fast turns. lol. It leans a lot, and how much I enjoy doing them with how much they scare the crap out of me, together both of those scare me that I enjoy that trill so much. lol. So back to chicken turning I go. =)

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:42 pm

Bevo, did you take your MSF course?

Pretty much just make sure all your braking is BEFORE your turn, then roll on the throttle a hair whilst turning. It's odd at first but once you get it, it takes the fear out of corners.

BevoLJ · Post by **BevoLJ** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:02 pm

My instructor told me to SLPR, Slow, Look, Push (turn), and Rotate (accelerate) in that order. It still scares me when I do it fast. lol.

Scooterboi · Post by **Scooterboi** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:14 pm

Another component is suspension compression. If you are carrying a heavier load you are more likely to scrape the center stand.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:54 pm

I enjoy leaning on curves, but slow way down to turn corners. Where I live there is gravel in almost every corner because the farm trucks pull in and out of orchards and drag it. As a result I don't like leaning hard into anything I can't see around, even when I'm in 'town'. I feel like a chicken on rides with others, but I'd rather limit the reasons I am likely to go down..

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:05 pm

Scooterboi wrote:Another component is suspension compression. If you are carrying a heavier load you are more likely to scrape the center stand.

And the shocks compress more the faster you're going, too.

I think all new riders start out as "cornering chickens," or at least should start out that way.

Fortunately, around here we have the kind of terrain where I could learn and practice twisties without having to leave the city. It's a necessity for getting around in these parts! Still, I had to rebuild my cornering confidence after going down in the canyons last year. It was a relatively minor spill, but really shook me, possibly because it was the result of overconfidence and simply going too damn fast. It took many months, and coming at it as a more experienced rider only helped a little. The hardest thing to break (for me) was target fixation. For some reason, post-crash this was an issue when it had never been one before.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:38 pm

Tom wrote:I enjoy leaning on curves, but slow way down to turn corners. Where I live there is gravel in almost every corner because the farm trucks pull in and out of orchards and drag it. As a result I don't like leaning hard into anything I can't see around, even when I'm in 'town'. I feel like a chicken on rides with others, but I'd rather limit the reasons I am likely to go down..

After slipping and nearly going down on: wet leaves, gravel, sand, frost, ice, and slush, I am definitely a chicken cornerer. I'll play around on roads I know are dry and clear, but when it doubt... I watch out. I'm sure it takes some of the fun out of riding a motorbike, but it's gotten me this far, and I don't see myself changing.

slusher5 · Post by **slusher5** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:20 am

From what I've read off various websites, 45 degree lean angle is the max

At 45 degrees you get about 1.1 G force, any more and your tire will slide out or tear apart or something...

racing tires allow for 50 degree lean angle i think... which is like 1.2 or 1.3 G's

The buddy only lets you go to the kick stand when turning left, if you try to push it you will end up on the ground.
not sure about right hand turns

michelle_7728 · Post by **michelle_7728** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:28 am

I've been known to take the right turn near where I live at 20-25mph (30 indicated) on occassion, but I'm careful to do it in dry conditions, and never when I know there might still be sand left over from winter time. I'm always on the look out for sand or gravel before and while I'm turning.

I did hit the center stand on my Buddy once on a left turn a year or so back. Startled me, but luckily no more than that. I think the pavement was a bit uneven there, which is why it happened.

I rubbed the center stand on my MP3 250 once turning left from a surface street on to the on-ramp of the freeway.

Scared the heck out of me, but thankfully nothing more. I've been a bit more careful turning there since then.

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:03 am

slusher5 wrote:From what I've read off various websites, 45 degree lean angle is the max

Here's a good explanation, though maybe a little dry and math/physics-y for some, of forces and dynamics while cornering: http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=219&Set=

A useful illustration: http://docmc.net/shareupload//34-b.jpg

From a more practical standpoint, riders should plan their speed and their lines for when they're cornering. Slow down before the turn. Start to the outside, move to the inside. Going wide? You're not leaning enough. Falling to the inside? Not going fast enough for your lean angle.

On the easier turns, practice correcting your lean or altering it mid-turn. Challenge and push yourself to develop this skill and your confidence; it's okay to do it a little at a time.

slusher5 · Post by **slusher5** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:59 am

http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=219&Set= wrote:Well, let's look at a normal and reasonable example. You are traveling at 50 MPH in a curve that has a radius of 335 feet. As a result, your bike is leaned over at an angle of 27 degrees and you are experiencing lateral acceleration of 0.5g's. How hard can you brake in that case without exceeding the traction your tire's provide?

Again assuming that your tires (and the roadway) support 1.0g's of force before skidding or sliding, then you can apply as much as 0.87g's of braking force. That is a WORLD-CLASS BRAKING EFFORT before a slide will occur! Most riders cannot get a deceleration rate of more than about 0.80g's, even in a panic stop! (I should point out that though you will not slide in this scenario, you WILL widen your turn - perhaps a great deal!)

Surely this can't be true...

Hellvis · Post by **Hellvis** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:20 pm

I would say that one can go pretty low.

Is that low enough???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqX363BQNKQ&

slusher5 · Post by **slusher5** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:55 pm

Hellvis wrote:I would say that one can go pretty low.

Is that low enough???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqX363BQNKQ&

nice.. you've dug up some of my old racing footage

Hellvis · Post by **Hellvis** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:21 pm

slusher5 wrote:
Hellvis wrote:I would say that one can go pretty low.

Is that low enough???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqX363BQNKQ&
nice.. you've dug up some of my old racing footage

This is very cool, I have to admit that I didn't found this footage. It happen that there was a posting on "SouthEastFloridaScooters" a yahoo group, where this person is wants to set up a race track here in FL.

Here is the posting, you may have to sign up for this yahoo group to see it.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Sou ... sage/15204

slusher5 · Post by **slusher5** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:55 pm

Hellvis wrote:
slusher5 wrote:
Hellvis wrote:I would say that one can go pretty low.

Is that low enough???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqX363BQNKQ&
nice.. you've dug up some of my old racing footage
This is very cool, I have to admit that I didn't found this footage. It happen that there was a posting on "SouthEastFloridaScooters" a yahoo group, where this person is wants to set up a race track here in FL.

Here is the posting, you may have to sign up for this yahoo group to see it.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Sou ... sage/15204

sorry if you believed me,... I wish I was that good.. it looks like soo much fun

moriahskies · Post by **moriahskies** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:01 pm

I don't know how low I went, but I found out I have a limit. I touched my front left fork (buddy 150 st. tropez) to the ground on a tight left turn. I didn't think I was leaning that low, but there you have it.

Post by **ericalm** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:12 am

slusher5 wrote:sorry if you believed me

Well, now we know better.