Modern Buddy

When I purchased my scooter, I was told by the shop owners to use only Shell or Mobil gasoline in it. I don't remember the precise reason, but I think it had something to do with additives in other brands of gasoline. Does this sound right? The shop owners seem to know their business and I've been following their instructions, but I would like to have the option of buying gasoline elsewhere if it doesn't make a difference.

Does this sound right? No, not really. However, fuel, fuel additives and oil are all treated more or less as articles of faith rather than as matters that can be scientifically analyzed in controlled environments for the most part. So, if you're the superstitious type, believe the dealer and/or the next ten things you read on the Intertronz. :)
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No one told me anything regarding. Brands of gasoline when I bought mine. I hope that is not so because there is a Shell station less than a block from me and whenever I put gas in my car from that station my engine light comes on. When I put gas in from the BP up the street or from Mobil it is fine. So far I have used BP and Mobil. I have almost 300 miles on it so the first service is coming up on my scooter. I guess if I am doing something wrong I will be told. ???

Since you're from Boston, I'm guessing you also got your scooter from Scooters go green. I was told the same thing too (obviously) and have followed their advice for the most part, except for the few times that I've had to get some other kind of gas. However, there are 2 Shell stations near my school, so it's also the most convenient place for me to fill up. I didn't follow the advice just because they told me that. Shell gas is usually one of the cheaper ones in the area. Citgo and Gulf are a little bit more (but who cares if we're paying only $3 or $4 each time?). I've bought 93 octane every time though.

Oparu wrote:Since you're from Boston, I'm guessing you also got your scooter from Scooters go green. I was told the same thing too (obviously) and have followed their advice for the most part, except for the few times that I've had to get some other kind of gas. However, there are 2 Shell stations near my school, so it's also the most convenient place for me to fill up. I didn't follow the advice just because they told me that. Shell gas is usually one of the cheaper ones in the area. Citgo and Gulf are a little bit more (but who cares if we're paying only $3 or $4 each time?). I've bought 93 octane every time though.

Yes, it was Scooters Go Green. Shell and Mobil end up being more expensive in my area, which is one reason I'd like the option to fill up elsewhere. I've always heard that gas is gas, and I'm inclined to stop following the advice to use Shell or Mobil unless someone here comes up with a compelling argument to the contrary.

Just bought my Buddy... dealer said to only put 89 octane in it, but didn't mention brand.

You should ask your salesperson whether or not he has two brothers.

You still have Mobil stations? Exxon Mobile pulled out of AZ a couple years back, said they couldn't make money selling gas.

The Shell station closest gave my scooter all kinds of trouble with water in the gas. I now use one station(Exxon) pretty much all the time. I have stopped using 93 and now use 87.

I think you're fine to use any gas from any station. Especially if you use Seafoam. Expensive gas companies have their special additive formulations, but even the cheap gas companies sometimes get those same additives in their bulk purchases. I might avoid places called Bubba's or Guido's gas. But Sam's Club/Costco or Safeway gas would be fine. And save money, use 87.

I think it's time for some experimentation based on what I've read here. I'm going to abandon Shell and Mobil for the time being, but stick with 93 octane for now. If the fuel switch goes well, then I'll try a lower octane. Something tells me that will be just fine. It's worth mentioning, though, that my Buddy Italia 150 has continued to run like a top since Day 1.

I have filled my gas tank wherever it was a) closet or b) cheapest. Including a general store in the middle of nowhere, with pumps that indicated the gallons purchased using spinning wheels with numbers painted on them. I have noticed no negative effects from this.

I believe the reason why the guys at scooters go green advised you to use shell or Mobil was not because of the additives. There are many off brand gas stations throughout the city of Boston which do not have the cleanest underground fuel reservoirs and therefore may have a lot of dirt and debris in their fuel. This type of debris will not effect a car or suv because of the filtration and Larger sized carbs.

The 50cc and 150cc carburetor jets are pin hole in size and the most minor piece of dirt or debris could cause problems for the scooter. So I would take their advice as a precautionary measure. A carburetor cleaning is not covered under warranty and that bit of advice may save you $200 in the long run.

Bjc617 wrote:I believe the reason why the guys at scooters go green advised you to use shell or Mobil was not because of the additives. There are many off brand gas stations throughout the city of Boston which do not have the cleanest underground fuel reservoirs and therefore may have a lot of dirt and debris in their fuel. This type of debris will not effect a car or suv because of the filtration and Larger sized carbs.

The 50cc and 150cc carburetor jets are pin hole in size and the most minor piece of dirt or debris could cause problems for the scooter. So I would take their advice as a precautionary measure. A carburetor cleaning is not covered under warranty and that bit of advice may save you $200 in the long run.

Thank you, Bjc617. That was exactly it. I wouldn't necessarily take it to an off-brand station, but I'm wondering what it is about Shell and Mobil that makes it better than Hess or Gulf, for instance.

I will only buy BP, Shell, or Exxon gas if I can at all help it. They have supposedly engine-cleaning additives, but aside from that... when I had my VW and my Ford, both ran like shit when I put Wawa, Sheetz, or Sam's club gas in them. And some of that was before the engine-cleaning additives debuted in the brand name stations.

I avoid Ma-and-Pa station like the plague. I have no way of knowing how old or dirty their gas in. What's more, if you see or somehow know a station has had the tanker come, don't fill up that day- when the tanker fills the station it kicks up sediment at the bottom of the tanks, and you don't want that in your engine or carb.

A few days ago I saw a United Oil tanker truck fill up the local Shell station.

I also have a United Oil gas station near by, and seeing that it is cheaper than the Shell station, that's where I go..

would think that everyone would skip BP after their little accident . . .

KevinD wrote:would think that everyone would skip BP after their little accident . . .

I go to a BP station because it is a locally owned business, and the only gas station remaining in my neighborhood, so if it closed it'd be another vacant business property in this part of the city, and require people to drive elsewhere to buy gas. My point being that there are also other factors to consider.

I didn't read all the replies so this may have been answered, but those are two companies that still do not add ethanol in there gas, at least in areas where they are not required to. That being said, I have 10,000 miles on my scoot and have regularly used gas with ethanol added and have not had a problem with it. Scooters do not have highly sophisticated engines and are not as easily thrown off by ethanol as say a bike with a engine that is more geared towards racing.

My main concern, since I use premium, is to use a station where the pumps are separate depending on octane. The reason for this is that the tube is going to have some of the gas that was pumped by the previous motorist. In a car this won't matter, but in our sub-2gallon tanks this is going to be a noticeable amount.

Yes. And no. I'm speaking generally here. (Ethanol content is a whole other ball of wax dumped into a can of worms and could affect performance.)

Much like brand of motor oil, stay away from the super-cheap stuff and you'll probably be okay.

I almost always fill up at the 76 (Philips, whatever) near my house. It's convenient. I don't care about the price. A difference of 20¢ a gallon (or however much) is negligible when filling up high-MPG vehicles with tanks under 2 gallons.

My mechanic has in the past said my carburetors are usually clean as a whistle. He credited the gas. (And riding a lot helps, too.)

Not sure how much it affects the cleanliness of my carbs, but I keep using the same brand most of the time because it sure as heck isn't hurting or hindering performance.

In this area the gas switches over for the season with formulation. I always use high test try to use Gulf and sometimes use Shell if the tank is getting low. No matter what brand I still add Sta-bil for the ethanol or Seafoam to clean out the fuel system. The pump
will also list the amount of ethanol in the gas. How was the dealer overall am interested in looking at a Stella.

Gas fight! Second only to Oil War! in destructive power. It has been shown that octane ratings in the US are different than the octane ratings in much of the world, especially Asia, the result of which being that premium gas in Asia is about equal to regular gas in the US. Applied math is involved, so I won't go into it further.

A difference of 20¢ a gallon (or however much) is negligible when filling up high-MPG vehicles with tanks under 2 gallons.

Since a fill up is limited I agree as Eric indicated for an additional 25 cents
seems well worth it if this keeps the scooter happy.

TVB wrote:

KevinD wrote:would think that everyone would skip BP after their little accident . . .

I go to a BP station because it is a locally owned business, and the only gas station remaining in my neighborhood, so if it closed it'd be another vacant business property in this part of the city, and require people to drive elsewhere to buy gas. My point being that there are also other factors to consider.

Yeah. BP contracts their gas out. Example: the station I technically still work at is owned by a locally owned chain who exclusively bought BP and Exxon stations. We contract BP for gas, signage, etc.

Just down the road about 2 miles is another BP station that sells BP gas- totally different company and store. Boycotting BP gas doesn't just boycott BP, it boycotts entrepreneurs AND other companies trying to make a living- in that way, it's harmful.

BP helps me get a paycheck, has better gas than some other places (IMO), and since I could fill up before/during/after work... it was just way too convenient.

Steve told me the same thing, but only after I got a bad tank at the Gulf station near Scooters Go Green. It was not the first time I filled up there, but that was the last time. It completely gunked me up, and Seafoam didn't help. They had to do a fuel flush, carb clean, and ultimately a spark plug replacement to get it back to proper working order.

Obviously it is just his preference, based on what companies he trusts to have good quality control on their gas and stations.

I still regularly fill up at a Gibbs station in Malden, and they've always been fine. But when I need gas before driving home from work, I don't go to the Gulf anymore. I go to the Shell on Rt 99 instead.

The old rules still apply. Fill up at a busy station, so you know the fuel hasn't been sitting for a long time; and don't fill up while/immediately after the truck is there, so the sediment on the bottom of the storage tank has a chance to resettle.

I'm more concerned about card skimmers at my gas stations than the quality of the gasoline. If I use a gas station and my bikes runs crappy, I go to another one until my bikes run crappy and then I go back to the first one, all the while continuously check my CC status online.

rsrider wrote:I'm more concerned about card skimmers at my gas stations than the quality of the gasoline. If I use a gas station and my bikes runs crappy, I go to another one until my bikes run crappy and then I go back to the first one, all the while continuously check my CC status online.

This is a great idea, but for a different reason, I think. While I can't speak on how easy it is or isn't to break open and instal a skimmer to a pump (or whatever it is you have to do to skim from the register), I know for a fact that people who steal credit cards often simply go use them for gas and beer, or food at places like Sheetz or Wawa.

This is because while credit card companies may monitor your account for odd activity, or have an automated system in place that puts a hold on your card under certain conditions (like if you go use a card you usually only use for gas and buy $800 worth of furniture, and it won't run... even though you have $1500 worth of room on it... its an automated safety precaution), most credit card companies will TOTALLY overlook any kind of gas station purchase.

I have no rhyme or reason as far as fuel brands go, probably because virtually every gallon that goes into my scoot and moto get additives (an ethanol treatment and a cleaner like Seafoam as a maintanence package); when I buy bulk for the gas cans I usually get Sheetz because they are close to the house; while I'm out riding I will get from a variety like Turkey Hill, Sunoco, Mobil, Exxon, Citgo, Sheetz, etc & I will add ethanol treatment when I get home; occasionally I will do a 'cleaning' treatment with more seafoam or other cleaner); when I only had scoot(s) I used 91 or higher octane; now that I share the same gas stash with a moto I use 89 octane...so far I have not had any negative effects

LunaP wrote:This is because while credit card companies may monitor your account for odd activity, or have an automated system in place that puts a hold on your card under certain conditions (like if you go use a card you usually only use for gas and buy $800 worth of furniture, and it won't run... even though you have $1500 worth of room on it... its an automated safety precaution), most credit card companies will TOTALLY overlook any kind of gas station purchase.

Veering wildly off-topic here: If you use your credit card to wire a friend a few hundred bucks in an emergency, they might authorize that.... but then when you try to buy $35 worth of food at the grocery store where you go at least once a week, they will decline it then.

TVB wrote:

LunaP wrote:This is because while credit card companies may monitor your account for odd activity, or have an automated system in place that puts a hold on your card under certain conditions (like if you go use a card you usually only use for gas and buy $800 worth of furniture, and it won't run... even though you have $1500 worth of room on it... its an automated safety precaution), most credit card companies will TOTALLY overlook any kind of gas station purchase.

Veering wildly off-topic here: If you use your credit card to wire a friend a few hundred bucks in an emergency, they might authorize that.... but then when you try to buy $35 worth of food at the grocery store where you go at least once a week, they will decline it then.

I've had this happen too. Not with wiring money to a friend, but using my card through PayPal. After I placed the online order I went to the Subway, Lowes and Hess right behind my apartment to grab some lunch (~$15 for the two of us), some ant traps (~$8 ) (our old apartment was a brand new "luxury" complex, that was built really quickly, and really crappily. The drywall didn't go all the way to the floor, there was just some filler to make the walls look flush from the inside, but that's a whole different story) and gas (~$40). When I got home I immediately got a call from my bank about fraudulent charges at Subway and Lowes.
[/rant]

Funny how people make claims here! I used to work for Chevron in their additives division. So I know a thing or two about additives. First off all fuels are required to have a mandated amount of additives at a minimal level. Anything added is to develop the Brand of the gas and further to meet "Top Tier" specs. When you buy from an ARCO station (brand of BP) you're not necessarily buying gas from the Deepwater Horizon well (not that it exists anymore) or any of BPs other upstream wells. Ultimately the supply chain for gas is well-->refinery-->retail, all which may have a different company associated to it (If you want to boycott BP you'll have to know the whole supply chain to do it properly).

Oil companies will then add their selective and proprietary additive cocktails to the gasoline at the retail level. Those cheapo mart gasoline places have lower thresholds for the quality of their gas and refiners may sell them batches that high water content or other issues (not always but sometimes, this I heard from hearsay though from the old dudes at the refinery).

Additives serve to do several things in the fuel line, valves and combustion chamber. One thing they do is affix themselves to soot and ash that form in the chamber and valves during combustion (for a number of reasons I could explain if you're interested). They then explode on the surface of these clumps causing them to fall off, crumble and get changed out with your oil change. I know I may sound biased but from my knowledge and the data I've seen Chevron's gas was the best as they put the most additive at all levels of octane into their fuels. But anything in the "Top Tier Fuels" will meet that spec. http://www.toptiergas.com/

Are these better or worse then oil threads? About equal?

I put iced tea in my scooter



Just a little humor, folks. Carry on as usual....

heyitsomid wrote:I know I may sound biased but from my knowledge and the data I've seen Chevron's gas was the best as they put the most additive at all levels of octane into their fuels. But anything in the "Top Tier Fuels" will meet that spec. http://www.toptiergas.com/

And here is the list of Top Tier gas stations:


76 Stations
Chevron Canada
Aloha Petroleum
Esso
Chevron
Petro-Canada
Conoco
Shell Canada
CountryMark
Entec Stations
Exxon
Hawaii Fueling Network (HFN)
Holiday Stationstores, Inc.
Kwik Trip / Kwik Star
MFA Oil Co.
Mileage Stations
Mobil
Ohana Fuels
Phillips 66
Quik Trip
Rebel Oil
Road Ranger
Severson Oil
Shell
Texaco
Tri-Par Oil Co.
U.S. Oil

p.s United Oil provides the gas for Shell, ConocPhillips 76 and Valero:

http://www.unitedoilco.com/distributor-brands

United Oil Company, and its affiliates, is an authorized distributor of motor fuel for Shell, ConocoPhillips (76), and Valero. Serving the Southern California key market.

And weirdly, we have Shell _and_ Conoco Philips refineries here in the STL area.

BP/Amoco is conspicuously absent from the Top Tier list. Is this an industry organization or a list built on real testing?

heyitsomid wrote:Ultimately the supply chain for gas is well-->refinery-->retail, all which may have a different company associated to it

Actually, well -> refinery -> distributor -> retail. I've seen some strange distributor trucks replenishing name-brand retailers around here. I'm thinking the TT designation at retail ain't all it's cracked up to be.

JHScoot wrote:Are these better or worse then oil threads? About equal?

I put iced tea in my scooter



Just a little humor, folks. Carry on as usual....

Ah, but... is it SWEET iced tea?

LunaP wrote:

JHScoot wrote:Are these better or worse then oil threads? About equal?

I put iced tea in my scooter



Just a little humor, folks. Carry on as usual....

Ah, but... is it SWEET iced tea?

OR with lemon?! I find the lemon to give the scoot an extra pep to it, smells nice too

desmolicious wrote:p.s United Oil provides the gas for Shell, ConocPhillips 76 and Valero:

http://www.unitedoilco.com/distributor-brands

United Oil Company, and its affiliates, is an authorized distributor of motor fuel for Shell, ConocoPhillips (76), and Valero. Serving the Southern California key market.

Then why isn't Valero on the top tier list?

The Scooters-Go-Green guy mentioned to me not to go to the Hess station near them because there may be some water condensation in their tanks. I remember one time I did pick up my scooter from them and had filled up there before I knew that and noticed some hiccups. I usually have no problems with gas from Hess stations where I live on the North Shore, so I would say it has more to do with particular stations and their tanks rather than brand.

PeteH wrote:

heyitsomid wrote:Ultimately the supply chain for gas is well-->refinery-->retail, all which may have a different company associated to it

Actually, well -> refinery -> distributor -> retail. I've seen some strange distributor trucks replenishing name-brand retailers around here. I'm thinking the TT designation at retail ain't all it's cracked up to be.

obviously a simplification. There is pipelines and shipping between well and refiner too that I didn't include. Also depending on how close your retailer is to the refiner, distributor would only be a truck as opposed to an elaborate distribution network (rail tankers and petroleum piping). Supply chains are very complex beasts.

desmolicious wrote:A few days ago I saw a United Oil tanker truck fill up the local Shell station.

Right... & no Shell stations in Boston are selling gasoline made in a shell refinery - I believe Shell's closest refinery would be Alabama & it would not be cost effective to truck or pipeline gas that far.
I bet most of the gas in Boston is coming from the 7 refineries in Pennsylvania or the 6 in New Jersey - They supply most of New England (& neither Shell or Mobile have refineries in either state)
But, in theory, the gasoline is blended with the additives that Shell or Mobile specify for their brand regardless of who actually made the gas.

Right - my point above was that the Good Old Days where an oil company controlled the supply chain all the way from the wellhead to the nozzle are long gone. Even the big name retailers are getting their fuels from relatively unknown distributors, based on specifications.

I can't for the life of me figure out how brands who claim special formulations (Shell nitrogen-enhanced V-Power, BP/Amoco Ultimate) can maintain any semblance of quality control end-to-end.

PeteH wrote:I can't for the life of me figure out how brands who claim special formulations (Shell nitrogen-enhanced V-Power, BP/Amoco Ultimate) can maintain any semblance of quality control end-to-end.

This one is pretty easy: chemistry, procedure, and engineering. In the end a lot of that is marketing. You can't trademark general process names, but you can make stuff up like V-Super RoadMax™ even if you've just partially hydrogenated your fuel

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-effi ... tion90.htm

Just as a point of reference. The manual that came with my 2006 doesn't say anything about a required octane rating. Normally this is reserved for engines with finer tuning, and despite what many think, a scooters engine is not a high performance affair (these are weedwhackers on wheels people).

You add octane to control when the fuel begins deflagration in the compression phase. More octane means more compression before deflagration, this could actually be bad for your engine if it is not tuned for this. Unless your gas cap says "89 octane only" don't put it in there no matter how much it costs.

Oh, I get all that. I have no doubt that Shell V-Power is exactly what it's supposed to be when it leaves a Shell refinery. I'm just saying that the independent distributorships are the weak link in the chain, as the local name-brand retailers are getting restocked by Billy Bob's Fuels and Cartage. Being near some major north-south pipelines and river infrastructure, we have a load of distributorships and refineries nearby.

k1dude wrote:

desmolicious wrote:p.s United Oil provides the gas for Shell, ConocPhillips 76 and Valero:

http://www.unitedoilco.com/distributor-brands

United Oil Company, and its affiliates, is an authorized distributor of motor fuel for Shell, ConocoPhillips (76), and Valero. Serving the Southern California key market.

Then why isn't Valero on the top tier list?

Because they do not use the additives to create a top tier gasoline.

United Oil delivers the gas, Shell, 76, Valero adds their final additives.

I also do not see United Oil on the top tier gas list even though they have their own stations and supply gas to top tier Shell and 76. So it really seems it is the final additives that makes the difference.

AWinn6889 wrote:

LunaP wrote:

JHScoot wrote:Are these better or worse then oil threads? About equal?

I put iced tea in my scooter



Just a little humor, folks. Carry on as usual....

Ah, but... is it SWEET iced tea?

OR with lemon?! I find the lemon to give the scoot an extra pep to it, smells nice too

No Luna, not the sweet tea. IIRC when I was a kid some would pour sugar in the gas tanks in cars belonging to the town low life's. Results were not good. For their cars, at least.

Oh yes, I use only Splenda. It's the only tea additive I trust not to clog my jets.

Lemon, you say? Sure it keeps the scoot smelling fresh. But did you know it also helps for cold starts? Especially....in the bitter cold.

Especially

PeteH wrote:Oh, I get all that. I have no doubt that Shell V-Power is exactly what it's supposed to be when it leaves a Shell refinery. I'm just saying that the independent distributorships are the weak link in the chain, as the local name-brand retailers are getting restocked by Billy Bob's Fuels and Cartage. Being near some major north-south pipelines and river infrastructure, we have a load of distributorships and refineries nearby.

The additives are added at the station upon fill up of the tank normally.

FWIW...

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA