Honda automatic motorcycle.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:16 pm

My last post on this was buried in another thread, so I thought I'd throw a little bike porn up in it's own thread.

For those of you looking for a highway machine, but don't want to give up your automatic transmission or fuel economy, this bike's for you. It's Honda's answer to the Aprilia Mana 850 without the larger displacement and the lower fuel economy. Like the Mana, if you want to change gears manually, you can flick a switch and shift away to your hearts content.

It was specifically designed for fuel economy, so it squeezes 79mpg unofficial (65mpg official) out of a 670cc modified car engine. And like the Mana, the gas tank is actually helmet storage just like a scooter. The gas tank is actually under the seat to lower the CG just like a scooter.

The new Honda NC700X

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:30 pm

Interesting! thanks for sharing.

irishtim · Post by **irishtim** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:50 pm

Honda have a 5 speed, non-ABS model as well for $2K less. It looks like a nice bike but it's got NBA player-type seat height.

scootavaran · Post by **scootavaran** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:59 pm

I'm just happy to see it make it to the states. Honda has some great bikes that never see the light of the day here in the states.

I've been following this bike for a year now and have been thinking of getting one, Manual of course.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:59 pm

irishtim wrote:Honda have a 5 speed, non-ABS model as well for $2K less. It looks like a nice bike but it's got NBA player-type seat height.

32.7" is a bit on the high side, but still falls within the range of most motorcycles. So yeah, it isn't ideal if you're shorter than most. But it isn't outrageously tall. For those of you wondering, it's about 3" taller than a Buddy.

It probably has to do with the suspension. The Honda has a whopping 6" of travel. By comparison, the Mana only has 4". So I suspect the Honda might sag some when you sit on it, effectively lowering the seat height.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:08 pm

I like it a lot. It's things like this that start me wondering if I will ride a motorcycle one day. If only because it is possible for me with an automatic transmission. But I am not going to start missing something I have never done. I love scooters and that's well enough.

If not for products like this I never think to ride a MC, period. I have to remember that for myself. Lest I get foolish one day and dare try one with gears, and all that goes with.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:42 pm

Looks like Honda is planning a number of different models built around this same engine/transmission. So far the NC700x, NC700s, and Integra have shown their faces in one place or another. The Integra sounds like a worthy successor to the aging Silverwing. (hope we see it here before long)

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:00 am

Dooglas wrote:Looks like Honda is planning a number of different models built around this same engine/transmission. So far the NC700x, NC700s, and Integra have shown their faces in one place or another. The Integra sounds like a worthy successor to the aging Silverwing. (hope we see it here before long)

The problem I have with all maxiscoots is you still have to swing your leg over like a motorcycle. So why not get a motorcycle? Before the Mana, you could claim the need for storage, but not anymore. The Mana and NC700X have the same storage as a maxiscoot. Or you could have claimed the low CG, but not with the new NC700X. It has the same CG as a scooter.

2wheelNsanity · Post by **2wheelNsanity** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:29 am

I like it and the price isn't that bad either considering what the Mana costs. With that said I like the sitting position of a scooter (straight), I couldn't ride bent over due to the ruptured muscles in my lower back.

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:45 am

You can really add alot of factory crap to it.

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:57 am

If I can swing it, this will be my next bike. I'll have to travel for it, I guess, because my local Honda dealer isn't getting any of the Dual-Clutch models in stock; only the standards and I'm still unsure if those come with or have the option for the ABS.

From my research on it I've seen that the standard transmission is a 6 speed, not a 5 speed. Do you have a different source? It's hard to get reliable info stateside. A 6 speed would make more sense because of the engine type. It's supposedly a lower revving parallel twin which would warrant more gears.

scootavaran · Post by **scootavaran** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:24 am

It's a 6 speed.

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:45 am

having the option to switch to automatic would be handy for in town... but I don't see how riding around town with something this tall and bulky would be fun anyway.

I surely would not be willing to pay the premium associated with the automatic tranny for the convenience of the ten minutes it'd take me to get out of the city traffic and onto faster roads.

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:07 pm

It's fairly light and compact compared to similar motorcycles. It should also have a low center of gravity since it's gas tank is under the passenger seat and it's "tank" area is a storage compartment like the Mana.

I'm more interested in the ABS than the dual clutch, but I'm not counting the auto version out yet.

Fun is a matter of opinion. I think this thing will be a blast. It'd definitely be a great commuter bike if getting on the highway is a necessity, which for me usually is.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:56 pm

Lokky wrote:having the option to switch to automatic would be handy for in town... but I don't see how riding around town with something this tall and bulky would be fun anyway.
I surely would not be willing to pay the premium associated with the automatic tranny for the convenience of the ten minutes it'd take me to get out of the city traffic and onto faster roads.

No experience with the Honda dual clutch transmissions but substantial experience with Volkswagen/Audi dual clutch designs (DSG). Two interesting things about the design beyond it's high efficiency. The first is they can have a series of different "programs" for their "auto" mode to yield different levels of performance and rideability. The second is that the two clutches and electronic solenoids result in faster and more precise shifting than is possible manually. Very different design than the conventional CVT belt transmission used on most current scooters.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:14 pm

Lokky wrote:having the option to switch to automatic would be handy for in town... but I don't see how riding around town with something this tall and bulky would be fun anyway.

I surely would not be willing to pay the premium associated with the automatic tranny for the convenience of the ten minutes it'd take me to get out of the city traffic and onto faster roads.

That's why I said it's for scooter drivers looking for a HIGHWAY machine. Around town it's scooter all the way, no doubt. The highways around my neck of the woods are a perfect example of why you'd want an automatic motorcycle. Some commute days it's a fast and crowded 75mph bumper-to-bumper. Other days it's bumper-to-bumper stop-and-go. That auto transmission would be excellent for conditions like that. Shifting would SUCK. Fortunately in California we can lane split. But not in other parts of the country with the same type of commute.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:19 pm

Dooglas wrote:No experience with the Honda dual clutch transmissions but substantial experience with Volkswagen/Audi dual clutch designs (DSG). Two interesting things about the design beyond it's high efficiency. The first is they can have a series of different "programs" for their "auto" mode to yield different levels of performance and rideability. The second is that the two clutches and electronic solenoids result in faster and more precise shifting than is possible manually. Very different design than the conventional CVT belt transmission used on most current scooters.

Yes! Rag reviewers who have tested the Mana and Honda say the shifting is so fast and confident, you wonder why anyone would want a standard foot shift bike anymore. Especially fast is the thumb shifting vs the foot shifting. And like you said, there are different programs or modes. There's usually a sport mode, a touring mode, and a rain mode.

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:34 pm

Lostmycage wrote:It's fairly light and compact compared to similar motorcycles. It should also have a low center of gravity since it's gas tank is under the passenger seat and it's "tank" area is a storage compartment like the Mana.

I'm more interested in the ABS than the dual clutch, but I'm not counting the auto version out yet.

Fun is a matter of opinion. I think this thing will be a blast. It'd definitely be a great commuter bike if getting on the highway is a necessity, which for me usually is.

AWinn6889 · Post by **AWinn6889** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:07 pm

Dooglas wrote:
Lokky wrote:having the option to switch to automatic would be handy for in town... but I don't see how riding around town with something this tall and bulky would be fun anyway.
I surely would not be willing to pay the premium associated with the automatic tranny for the convenience of the ten minutes it'd take me to get out of the city traffic and onto faster roads.
No experience with the Honda dual clutch transmissions but substantial experience with Volkswagen/Audi dual clutch designs (DSG). Two interesting things about the design beyond it's high efficiency. The first is they can have a series of different "programs" for their "auto" mode to yield different levels of performance and rideability. The second is that the two clutches and electronic solenoids result in faster and more precise shifting than is possible manually. Very different design than the conventional CVT belt transmission used on most current scooters.

My fellow VW loyalists call the VW DSG "Designed for Stupid Girls," and that's the nice acronym. Every single one that I have had personal contact with has had problems right form the get go and the buyer regretted getting that option (and in 4 out of the 6 cases sold/traded the car, either back to the dealer or to someone else, and bought a standard). Go auto or go standard... an attempt at both in a car is not very practical (and kind of lame IMHO, paddle shifters-- no thanks). Also, they cost a crap ton of money to fix if something goes wrong, and in VW's case, are not covered under warranty.

As for the set up on these Hondas... I wouldn't buy one right off the get go, I would wait at least a few months to see what other people think of them before I laid any money down.
I honestly would not ever want to own one, it just doesn't seem like something that would ever be needed, I guess. That may only be in the case of someone who has the option to ride either a motorcycle or a scooter at any given time... but if I want to ride a motorcycle I'll ride the motorcycle, if I want to ride a scooter I'll ride the scooter. The only time I have ever regretted riding a motorcycle is in heavy traffic, because holding that clutch lever in can get tiresome to carpal-tunnel-y hands, but it's usually something I can avoid by thinking about where I'm going and what time it is, and taking the scooter instead.
For those who only have the capacity, whatever that may be, to only have ONE bike, this thing could be practical, but I don't know, it just seems... strange.
I'm really thinking that it's going to be the Sasquatch of the motorcycle/scooter worlds, the "missing link" if you will.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:29 pm

VW may be having problems, but companies like BMW and Infiniti aren't. Those paddle shifters are AWESOME in those brands. I have several car enthusiast friends that have Infiniti's and BMW's with paddle shifters. I've asked which they prefer, paddle or gear lever, and all of them say paddle. It's much faster and easier. I've also driven a few of their cars and it's a blast with those sophisticated transmissions.

Like you, I would probably wait a year for Honda to tweak the machine. It's so new and revolutionary, I'm not sure I'd want to buy the first year's production. But if I had to bet on anyone doing it correctly right out of the gate, it would be a Japan made Honda. If they release the red version in the US, I might break down and pick one up. And I haven't considered a motorcycle in decades because scooters are just more fun and practical.

But if I wait a year, the Piaggio BV350 will also have some of the kinks worked out. It would be a comparison between the BV350 and the NC700X. I have less confidence in a Piaggio product being fault-free out of the gate than a Honda product. So it would be next year before I'd consider the Piaggio.

Stormswift · Post by **Stormswift** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:06 pm

I would love an automatic transmission motorcycle. with more power then Buddy for longer trips...but they are all too tall for me.......

I don't even know if MP3 or other maxi scooters would work . I am only 5 '1 and 1/2 "-5'2" with boots......

AWinn6889 · Post by **AWinn6889** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:15 pm

k1dude wrote:VW may be having problems, but companies like BMW and Infiniti aren't. Those paddle shifters are AWESOME in those brands. I have several car enthusiast friends that have Infiniti's and BMW's with paddle shifters. I've asked which they prefer, paddle or gear lever, and all of them say paddle. It's much faster and easier. I've also driven a few of their cars and it's a blast with those sophisticated transmissions.

Like you, I would probably wait a year for Honda to tweak the machine. It's so new and revolutionary, I'm not sure I'd want to buy the first year's production. But if I had to bet on anyone doing it correctly right out of the gate, it would be a Japan made Honda. If they release the red version in the US, I might break down and pick one up. And I haven't considered a motorcycle in decades because scooters are just more fun and practical.

But if I wait a year, the Piaggio BV350 will also have some of the kinks worked out. It would be a comparison between the BV350 and the NC700X. I have less confidence in a Piaggio product being fault free out of the gate than a Honda product. So it would be next year before I'd consider the Piaggio.

My ex-bf's horribly immature father has one of the first tip-tronic Infinitis, it works for him I guess... but man does he look (and sound) like a tool when he drives the thing

Hyundai has done a nice job with them too. My mom has a 2.0T Genesis coupe with the paddle shifters, and she likes it... not a single problem with it yet. Of course, my sister ended up driving all the way to my nephew's school (about 4 miles from her house) in 1st gear a few weeks ago, the entire time wondering why the car was so loud and wouldn't go any faster (and her first two cars were manual!

). BUT I have yet to talk to any car enthusiast, or even an average person that typically drives a manual, that has preferred no clutch pedal and paddles over a clutch pedal and a shift lever. I'm sure there are some out there, and that they have their reasons... but in my opinion paddles don't actually count, it's not real shifting, it's just telling the automatic/dual trans when to shift rather than letting the ECU do it.

Anyway, waiting a year, or even just a few months, is never a bad idea. With vehicles, cell phones, computers, you name it. Everything is going to have problems until some real world "testing" is done.
The difference between my Droid X and my friend Jen's as far as internals go is amazing, and they were purchased only 3 months apart.
Look at the 170is even, there was an ECU problem right from the get-go, that wasn't found until the bike was released into the wild.
My concern with Piaggio is that they represent such a small market in the US, and those buggers are not cheap to fix as it is. I'm sure the new one with it's fancy new technology is going to be even worse, what with all the special training and whatnot that has to be done before a mechanic is even allowed to look at it without voiding the warranty.
I have a lot of faith in Honda though, being such a large company with a really good reputation in the US for both their autos and motorcycles, that they will do everything they can to make sure this sasquatch is properly tested before it's released. There's just only so much they can do in a limited amount of time with whatever facilities they have available.

Either way, both the BV350 and NC700X are going to be new, strange animals to the dealers and mechanics that deal with them, which presents another concern all together. If something weird happens to one, are the people that are supposed to know how to handle it going to actually know what to do, or are they going to be standing there scratching their head while waiting for a reply from the manufacturer? ...We shall see!

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:58 am

Stormswift wrote: I don't even know if MP3 or other maxi scooters would work . I am only 5 '1 and 1/2 "-5'2" with boots......

Well the MP3's wheels can always be locked as you slow down so there is no need to put your foot down at the light

michelle_7728 · Post by **michelle_7728** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:31 am

This is true, but a good portion of MP3 riders (myself included) do not do that. You have to be more coordinated than I...it's downright scary when you start wandering toward the neighboring lane because you locked it slightly off-level.

edited for typo...

michelle_7728 · Post by **michelle_7728** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:41 am

k1dude wrote:
Dooglas wrote:Looks like Honda is planning a number of different models built around this same engine/transmission. So far the NC700x, NC700s, and Integra have shown their faces in one place or another. The Integra sounds like a worthy successor to the aging Silverwing. (hope we see it here before long)
The problem I have with all maxiscoots is you still have to swing your leg over like a motorcycle. So why not get a motorcycle? Before the Mana, you could claim the need for storage, but not anymore. The Mana and NC700X have the same storage as a maxiscoot. Or you could have claimed the low CG, but not with the new NC700X. It has the same CG as a scooter.

Actually you do step through them. I easily did on my Majesty 400 (really liked that bike). The one pictured above does look like you'd have to step through quite a bit higher than most, I will admit, but it does have an attraction to a certain audience (I really like the maxi pictured) who have never seen a motorcycle they felt the least attraction for.

One of the things I really like about maxi-scoots is that typically you are sitting (like on the Buddy) in a posturally correct position. I have a bad back, so that is a big attraction in any bike--the MP3 is the same.

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:13 am

michelle_7728 wrote:This is true, but a good portion of MP3 riders (myself included) do not do that. You have to be more coordinated than I...it's downright scary when you start wandering toward the neighboring lane because you locked it slightly off-level.

edited for typo...

Oh see, I thought you could still steer it like you would a sidecar

michelle_7728 · Post by **michelle_7728** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:30 am

Well, you still can steer, but it seems like you then feel all the pebbles in the road and you are going at a weird angle (if you were uncoordinated and locked it that way) and it feels VERY weird.

Now those with more coordination than me would agree with you that you never have to put your feet down...I know my limitations. I come to a stop, put my feet down, make sure the bike is level, THEN lock the suspension and pick my feet back up...or just keep my feet down and start from there depending on my mood.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:54 am

AWinn6889 wrote:My fellow VW loyalists call the VW DSG "Designed for Stupid Girls," and that's the nice acronym. Every single one that I have had personal contact with has had problems right form the get go and the buyer regretted getting that option (and in 4 out of the 6 cases sold/traded the car, either back to the dealer or to someone else, and bought a standard). Go auto or go standard... an attempt at both in a car is not very practical (and kind of lame IMHO, paddle shifters-- no thanks). Also, they cost a crap ton of money to fix if something goes wrong, and in VW's case, are not covered under warranty.

This sounds like the comments of somebody who doesn't drive one. Well, I do. The DSG transmission in my TDI VW works like a wonder and has given me over a 100,00 miles of trouble-free service. The majority of VWs sold in the US these days have the DSG transmission so your numbers don't quite work. Like anything else, best confine your comments to your own experience. (and yes, I realise the high miler TDI folks want to drive only manuals, but that doesn't change the fact that TDI DSG mileage is very close to that of the manuals - in the case of my TDI, the EPA average mileage measurement was the same for the two transmissions)

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:03 am

While it is true it works like a wonder it is also true it has suffered a higher then usual failure rate and many have questioned its durability. Over 100,000 miles? Thats fine. And I know VW upped the factory warranty on the unit to alleviate buyer concerns after some earlier then usual failures. Trouble is, and I do believe I am correct here, if the unit suffers an internal failure they must replace the whole trans at around $6,000 rather then repair it? Has this changed? Because honestly saying it will go somewhere over 100,000 miles is nothing. A well cared for auto trans should go hundreds of thousands of miles with just regular maintenance and maybe some repair.

I say this because I have known a few (four) VW / Audi owners which also had problems with the DSG trans and cursed the day they bought the car. I don't need to have driving experience with a car to know I don't know anyone else who has reported trans failure to me on a new(er) car....in the last 20 years. Unless a turn of the 90's Hyundai counts.

Must be something to it, yes? I mean while it is an impressive peice of technology once you mainstream it it better work great for all, not just most. And if not it should have some back up. The 100,000 mile warranty is great. But if I were looking at a preowned VW or Audi with upwards of say....60,000 miles on the clock, I would wonder if in a few years I might be stuck with a broke car and a $6000 bill.

I think that is fair to say. When the "majority" of these cars sold in the US hit 200,000 miles with the same trans in and without major incident then we will know more. Until then, its not saying much. At least not to the people I knew with messed up DSG boxes.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:13 pm

michelle_7728 wrote:Actually you do step through them. I easily did on my Majesty 400 (really liked that bike). The one pictured above does look like you'd have to step through quite a bit higher than most, I will admit, but it does have an attraction to a certain audience (I really like the maxi pictured) who have never seen a motorcycle they felt the least attraction for.

One of the things I really like about maxi-scoots is that typically you are sitting (like on the Buddy) in a posturally correct position. I have a bad back, so that is a big attraction in any bike--the MP3 is the same.

I should have made it more clear. I hate any kind of hump. I prefer a totally flat floorboard. Not only does it give you multiple foot positions, but it's a really handy place to transport oversized cargo. There are only a couple scooters over 200cc that have a flat floorboard and NO scooters over 300cc have one. If I'm going to have any hump at all, I might as well be on a motorcycle, especially if it has an automatic transmission, storage, and a low CG.

I understand your point about the upright riding position. That's very important to me too. When the Honda comes out, I plan to sit on it and test ride it. If it doesn't have a comfortable riding position, I won't even consider it. Fortunately, more than a few motorcycle manufacturers are beginning to address that complaint. On a few bikes, they're making the seated postion more upright to alleviate back problems and wrist/arm/shoulder/neck pressure/fatigue. I suspect they'll do the same to the NC700X considering their target market.

I doubt I'll really buy one. If I have to do a highway trip, I just take my cage. In town on surface streets, I use my scooter. I'm just facinated by new technology and bling, so the Honda caught my attention. If only a maxiscoot had a flat floorboard, I'd buy that long before a motorcycle for highway riding.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:13 pm

Actually, the dual mass flywheel on the manual transmission VW/Audis built in the past decade has had a fairly high failure rate and has produced a lot of the same discussion you are repeating. "High" is relative, of course. The problem with any such discussion on an internet site is that the handful of failures are reported and repeated again and again while few report trouble free performance. A fellow with a website called "truedelta" has tried to get around that problem by getting many people to sign up and track their long-term maintenance history. To bring this back to scooters, several owners have reported major Buddy engine failures on this site at fairly low mileage. What does that tell you. Is the failure rate high or low? Are Buddys reliable or unreliable? I'm back to what I can tell you. I've owned a Buddy for five years. It has performed faultlessly with no maintenance but routine oil changes and adjustments.

AWinn6889 · Post by **AWinn6889** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:55 pm

No I don't own a DSG VW, however I have driven one, and I am part of a pretty large VW community here in NY. The few (I'd say about 6 now) that have come into the local community with these cars have had problems.
In fact, the most recent of them, my good friend Kris, sold his 1982 Rabbit GTi and his 2007 Rabbit to buy his 2011 TDI Jetta brand spankin new at the end of last year, within two months he was having problems. He took it back to the dealer and all they did was scratch their heads. They charged him a ridiculous diagnostic fee and gave it back to him. They told him NOT to use the paddle shifters anymore, that that's what his problem was, the gear selector was getting "confused" by them. They didn't fix anything, they just told him not to use it the way it was built to be used! A few weeks later he lost reverse. That was it. He sold it back to the dealer as a lemon and bought a mk4 VR6 Jetta Wagon. The car is still sitting in their lot. I assume it's had the transmission replaced due to a recall that came out after he had returned it to them, but it hasn't sold.

What JHScoot said was true, if something goes wrong internally, there's no fixing it, there's only replacing it, which is NOT cheap by any means. Even functioning properly it requires a great deal MORE maintenance, and expensive fluids, than an average Automatic (wayyy more than a standard), and if it's not brought to a dealer for these services, VW can decide that you voided your warranty.

Anyway, here's a list of the "Advantages and Disadvantages" for the VW/Audi DSG transmissions.
"Advantages:
-Better fuel economy(up to 15% improvement) than conventional planetary geared automatic transmission (due to lower parasitic losses from oil churning)[5]
-No loss of torque transmission from the engine to the driving wheels during gear shifts;[2][4][5]
-Short up-shift time of 8 milliseconds when shifting to a gear the alternate gear shaft has preselected;[3][4]
-Smooth gear-shift operations;[4][5]

Disadvantages
-Achieving maximum acceleration or hill climbing, while avoiding engine speeds higher than a certain limit (e.g. 3000 or 4000 RPM), is difficult since it requires avoiding triggering the kick-down-switch. Avoiding triggering the kick-down-switch requires a good feel of the throttle pedal, but use of full throttle can still be achieved with a little sensitivity as the kick-down button is only activated beyond the normal full opening of the accelerator pedal.
-Marginally worse overall mechanical efficiency compared to a conventional manual transmission, especially on wet-clutch variants (due to electronics and hydraulic systems);[5]
-Expensive specialist transmission fluids/lubricants with dedicated additives are required, which need regular changes[/i];[13][14]
-Relatively expensive to manufacture, and therefore increases new vehicle purchase price;
-Relatively lengthy shift time when shifting to a gear ratio which the transmission ECU did not anticipate (around 1100 ms, depending on the situation);[4][20]
-Torque handling capability constraints perceive a limit on after-market engine tuning modifications; Later variants have been fitted to more powerful cars, such as the 300bhp/350Nm VW R36 and the 272 bp/350 Nm Audi TTS.
-Heavier than a comparable Getrag conventional manual transmission (75 kg (170 lb) vs. 47.5 kg (105 lb));
-Mechatronic units in earlier models are prone to problems and require replacement units"

I'm sorry but the disadvantages there are pretty hefty, and I hardly believe that there is a minimal loss of torque to the driving wheels. Maybe you have had one for more than 100k, and it's been great, then good for you. But just because your ONE has been problem-free that doesn't mean that they all are, that doesn't even mean that the majority of them are. I have plenty of experience with these cars, certainly enough to know what I'm talking about here.

Also, we don't own a VW with less than 120k. We have a 97 Jetta, a 2001.5 Wagon, and a 2006 GTi that is heavily modified. We have yet to encounter any kind of serious problem with any of them (outside of regular maintenance and the recalled cam-follower in the GTi). But just because this is true for me, doesn't mean that it's true for everyone. Mk3s are notorious for having their windows fall into the doors out of the blue, plenty of people have had problems with their mk4 2.0 Jettas (at least the ones made in Mexico) and others that have had the cam shaft fail in their Mk5s, causing complete engine failure and permanent damage.

Most recently. the economy pushed VW to make cheaper quality, less unique cars. While it's helping them in the average consumer market who are used to the quality of typical japanese and american made vehicles, most of the die hard VW community has become extremely displeased, myself included.

Either way. This is a thread about a motorcycle-scooter missing link. It's not about VW's failure with a somewhat-similar transmission technology.
I have faith in Honda for this new bike, I hope it does well, and serves well for those with higher expectations than myself.

Scootagangsta · Post by **Scootagangsta** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:48 pm

i had my heart set on the BV 350, but this looks very very interesting...

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:04 pm

Let's compare!

Scootagangsta · Post by **Scootagangsta** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:07 pm

Lostmycage wrote:Let's compare!

if you are referring to comparing the BV 350 and this, there is no comparison. My original thought was to ditch the buddy 125 for solely the BV 350 but now im thinking keep the buddy for in-town and the honda would be great for longer trips....

Will it really be worth 2k more to get the abs and auto tran? with it comes an additional 38lbs too....

Lostmycage · Post by **Lostmycage** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:45 pm

Scootagangsta wrote: if you are referring to comparing the BV 350 and this, there is no comparison. My original thought was to ditch the buddy 125 for solely the BV 350 but now im thinking keep the buddy for in-town and the honda would be great for longer trips....

Will it really be worth 2k more to get the abs and auto tran? with it comes an additional 38lbs too....

Heh, that comment wasn't for you at all. It was directed at the VW hijacking above.

The auto transmission is a toss up. I do know that it's the second generation of the dual clutch system. I'll be getting this with commuting being the main backing reason. That means stop and go traffic (even on the highway). There is nothing more miserable than being stuck on the highway in stop and go traffic (no lane splitting in VA) and seeing a sea of red lights in front of you. I'll take an auto for that any day. For back road fun, I'g go with the 6 speed standard without a second thought. Ultimately, it'll depend on how it acts at parking lot speeds. Considering that it's intended to be an "adventure" bike, loose ground and low speed handling need a much more refined level of control than a CVT system can provide. I can't find any reviews on how the Honda DCT works in the neutral to first range.

I'd pay 2k more for ABS. Here's why:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dJ_UkAFW6cA?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
and
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-Zv3Sacl7JQ?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:54 pm

Lostmycage wrote:
Scootagangsta wrote:Will it really be worth 2k more to get the abs and auto tran? with it comes an additional 38lbs too....
The auto transmission is a toss up. I do know that it's the second generation of the dual clutch system. I'll be getting this with commuting being the main backing reason. That means stop and go traffic (even on the highway). There is nothing more miserable than being stuck on the highway in stop and go traffic (no lane splitting in VA) and seeing a sea of red lights in front of you. I'll take an auto for that any day.

I'd pay 2k more for ABS. Here's why:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dJ_UkAFW6cA?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
and
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-Zv3Sacl7JQ?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Wow! Nice videos. I was always of the opinion that I would chose a bike with ABS over one without. But I'd never had any evidence to back up my preference. Thanks.

Scootagangsta · Post by **Scootagangsta** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:48 pm

Great vids but i would like to see the non abs bike try to stop without falling to make them a little more realistic...

Question: why would one choose this honda over say the BMW G 650 GS? the bmw is almost $1000, weighs 100 lbs less, larger gas tank and comes with abs for that price... Is the enticing factor of the Honda the auto tran???

siobhan · Post by **siobhan** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:50 pm

Scootagangsta wrote:Great vids but i would like to see the non abs bike try to stop without falling to make them a little more realistic...

Question: why would one choose this honda over say the BMW G 650 GS? the bmw is almost $1000, weighs 100 lbs less, larger gas tank and comes with abs for that price... Is the enticing factor of the Honda the auto tran???

Yeah, I do think it's the automatic that could entice some folks who wouldn't typically think they'd get a motorcycle or are aging out of being able to shift comfortably. I'm an old curmudgeon and at this stage, wouldn't want an auto-tran and still don't really "get" why ABS (there have been countless campfire-side conversations with riding buddies).

I'm really excited to see something forward-thinking from Honda IN THE US. The G650GS is also a single cylinder so you've got a completely different feel versus the parallel twin of the Honda (the F650 I used to have was nicknamed "the sewing machine" because of the feel versus the smoothness of the V-twin Transalp). That said, if Razee gets a NC700 at some point, I'm sure I want to take it out for a ride. It's a Honda and I just can't help myself.

You've also got a difference in service costs; the BMW is gonna cost you more if you don't do the work yourself simply because it's a BMW.

That little Sertao has a friend of mine going bonkers. I keep telling him to just get a Dakar.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:29 pm

Scootagangsta wrote:Great vids but i would like to see the non abs bike try to stop without falling to make them a little more realistic...

Question: why would one choose this honda over say the BMW G 650 GS? the bmw is almost $1000, weighs 100 lbs less, larger gas tank and comes with abs for that price... Is the enticing factor of the Honda the auto tran???

Good point. I'd like to see the best controlled stop the non-ABS rider could make. But ABS would still be worth it IMHO. Because we all know that you don't usually get to pick whether the stop is controlled or not when "that" incident happens.

Also, the BMW doesn't have the low CG or storage space that the Honda does. But the BMW is a REAL dual-sport bike. The Honda just looks like one because the look is popular right now. Although "real" is relative. The BMW was only designed for dirt roads and light offroading. I suspect the Honda could probably do both of those as well. Time will tell. BTW, the Honda styling was done by Italians.

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:30 pm

siobhan wrote:
Scootagangsta wrote:Great vids but i would like to see the non abs bike try to stop without falling to make them a little more realistic...

Question: why would one choose this honda over say the BMW G 650 GS? the bmw is almost $1000, weighs 100 lbs less, larger gas tank and comes with abs for that price... Is the enticing factor of the Honda the auto tran???
Yeah, I do think it's the automatic that could entice some folks who wouldn't typically think they'd get a motorcycle or are aging out of being able to shift comfortably. I'm an old curmudgeon and at this stage, wouldn't want an auto-tran and still don't really "get" why ABS (there have been countless campfire-side conversations with riding buddies).

I'm really excited to see something forward-thinking from Honda IN THE US. The G650GS is also a single cylinder so you've got a completely different feel versus the parallel twin of the Honda (the F650 I used to have was nicknamed "the sewing machine" because of the feel versus the smoothness of the V-twin Transalp). That said, if Razee gets a NC700 at some point, I'm sure I want to take it out for a ride. It's a Honda and I just can't help myself.

You've also got a difference in service costs; the BMW is gonna cost you more if you don't do the work yourself simply because it's a BMW.

That little Sertao has a friend of mine going bonkers. I keep telling him to just get a Dakar.

I agree. The videos were pointless. The rider was trying to lock up the wheels on the non-ABS bike. It would be more informative to see how fast each bike could safely stop. I've ridden in alot of rain and never stopped like that guy with the training wheels.

Anyone that has ridden a motorcycle or driven a manual trans car for any amount of time will tell you that they don't even realize they are shifting. It becomes a natural reflex. I always grab the rear brake on my scoot like it's a clutch until I reprogram my brain for scooter riding. I also hunt for a clutch pedal with my left foot when I drive a car with an automatic. It's only people who don't have a manual trans that say they wouldn't want a manual in traffic. Once you have it, it becomes second nature. Ripping through gears is all part of the fun.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:44 pm

Lotrat wrote:I agree. The videos were pointless. The rider was trying to lock up the wheels on the non-ABS bike. It would be more informative to see how fast each bike could safely stop. I've ridden in alot of rain and never stopped like that guy with the training wheels.

Anyone that has ridden a motorcycle or driven a manual trans car for any amount of time will tell you that they don't even realize they are shifting. It becomes a natural reflex. I always grab the rear brake on my scoot like it's a clutch until I reprogram my brain for scooter riding. I also hunt for a clutch pedal with my left foot when I drive a car with an automatic. It's only people who don't have a manual trans that say they wouldn't want a manual in traffic. Once you have it, it becomes second nature. Ripping through gears is all part of the fun.

You must be young. The young are usually the ones that think it's "fun" to shift in traffic. I've had manuals my whole life, many of them sports cars. But I finally sold them all because I couldn't stand shifting in traffic anymore. It doesn't matter if it's a reflex or not, it becomes a pain in the arse.

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:11 am

k1dude wrote:
Lotrat wrote:I agree. The videos were pointless. The rider was trying to lock up the wheels on the non-ABS bike. It would be more informative to see how fast each bike could safely stop. I've ridden in alot of rain and never stopped like that guy with the training wheels.

Anyone that has ridden a motorcycle or driven a manual trans car for any amount of time will tell you that they don't even realize they are shifting. It becomes a natural reflex. I always grab the rear brake on my scoot like it's a clutch until I reprogram my brain for scooter riding. I also hunt for a clutch pedal with my left foot when I drive a car with an automatic. It's only people who don't have a manual trans that say they wouldn't want a manual in traffic. Once you have it, it becomes second nature. Ripping through gears is all part of the fun.
You must be young. The young are usually the ones that think it's "fun" to shift in traffic. I've had manuals my whole life, many of them sports cars. But I finally sold them all because I couldn't stand shifting in traffic anymore. It doesn't matter if it's a reflex or not, it becomes a pain in the arse.

I've only been driving for 27 years. Still enjoy shifting... even on the 405.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:25 am

Lotrat wrote:I've only been driving for 27 years. Still enjoy shifting... even on the 405.

Yup. Young.

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:43 am

k1dude wrote:
Lotrat wrote:I've only been driving for 27 years. Still enjoy shifting... even on the 405.
Yup. Young.

What you said...

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:50 am

Forget the ABS, I want a motorcycle that deploys stabilizer wheels when I lock my brake

jrsjr · Post by **jrsjr** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:07 am

Lokky wrote:Forget the ABS, I want a motorcycle that deploys stabilizer wheels when I lock my brake

You jest, but this bike does that.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/djLZ4i4rq_o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:50 am

^ I made it to "proud owner" and could no longer watch.

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:02 am

k1dude wrote:
Lotrat wrote:I've only been driving for 27 years. Still enjoy shifting... even on the 405.
Yup. Young.

Thanks! You made my day.

michelle_7728 · Post by **michelle_7728** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:55 am

Ditto.

I enjoy my stick shift car too...when I drive it...