M1 in CA = 49cc and above?

hg3 · Post by **hg3** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:33 am

What maybe holding me back for purchase of a Blu is, [besides getting the funds together] I need to take the MSF course.

Just found out from one of the site administrators - with over ten years teaching MSF = he said the CHP here now -CA- want all new riders on any thing above 49 cc to have an M1.

Thus one can take the course with a motor scooter and he voiced the reply from the CHP that "if they intend to ride a motorcycle all they need to do is learn to shift gears, the knowledge of the DMV laws they will get with this course and experience".

This may be true but I intend to research this M1 requirement further.

Reread that CHP comment [ a second hand quote ] not real sure if that is what an CHP office said or not.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:53 am

If I understand California rules correctly, riding a Blur would certainly require an M1 endorsement on your drivers license. Also, why would you want to avoid taking the MSF basic riders course? It is a great experience and you will learn a lot (and you will complete the requirements for an M1 endorsement). I'd encourage you to do that as soon as possible, not wait until you buy a bike.

hg3 · Post by **hg3** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:57 am

You are correct about the M1 for the Blur but the part about being able to take the MSF course on a 50cc Honda scooter which they supply was news to me.

p.s. I am sign up tomorrow...

maybe it is a 150cc instead of 50cc but it is a scooter...

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:58 am

To ride ANY motorcycle or scooter in California you must have a M1 motorcycle endorsement on your drivers license. Taking the MSF course is optional but advisable as you will become a better, safer, rider because of it. The MSF course supplies the motorcycles to ride. There are some locations that also offer scooters.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:05 am

hg3 wrote:..... but the part about being able to take the MSF course on a 50cc Honda scooter which they supply was news to me.

I do understand that some MSF courses in CA can be taken on a scooter rather than a small motorcycle. The only way you will find out what equipment is available for courses offered in a particular area is to talk to the administrators of that series of courses. My partner completed her basic riders course in Oregon on a 125 scooter.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:24 am

IIRC, anything with an engine/motor that can go over 30mph needs an M1 endorsement. That includes mopeds.

And yes, you can use a scooter in the MSF. In fact, many schools offer scooters as one of the bikes available to use if you don't have your own scooter.

Post by **ericalm** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:51 am

Doesn't really matter what the CHP wants. They don't make the codes; they just enforce them.

State law and the motorcycle license handbook is pretty clear on the requirements:

California issues the following li- cense classes for two-wheel vehicle operation:
• Class M1—You may operate any two-wheel motorcycle, motor-driven cycle, or motorized scooter and all vehicles listed under Class M2.

NOTE: The permit and license requirements in this handbook pertain to two-wheel vehicles and are referenced in Section 12804.9 of the California Vehicle Code.

• Class M2—You may operate any motorized bicycle, moped, or a bicycle with an attached motor, or a motorized scooter.

You may obtain a Class M1 or M2 license at any DMV office which provides driver license services. Motorcycle law tests and skill tests are required.
NOTE: Class C licensees may operate a motorcycle with a side car attached or a three-wheel motorcycle.

("Motorized scooter" is a kick scooter like a Razor with a motor.)

k1dude wrote:IIRC, anything with an engine/motor that can go over 30mph needs an M1 endorsement. That includes mopeds.

Yep. Most moped riders get a M2, but that's kind of like people in other states riding de-restricted 49cc scoots that go over their state maximums.

State definition of a moped:

A two- or three- wheeled device, capable of no more than 30 mph on level ground, and equipped with:
– fully operative pedals for human propulsion.
– a motor producing less than two gross brake horsepower and an automatic transmission.
– an electric motor, with or without pedals for human propulsion.

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:28 am

You do not have to take the MSF course if you are 21 or older in California. People highly recommend it, but you don't need it. Get your permit at the DMV, then go back to the DMV and take the driving test. All you need is any scooter or motocycle.

I got my M1 license riding a 50cc Honda Metro. The cone/weaving/circling/etc exercises were a joke. Several parts of the driving test are waived automatically (shifting exercises).

Taking the exam at the DMV is a lot cheaper financially, and faster. The MSF course can be expensive. However, you do learn a LOT at the MSF course, both in the classroom and on the road experience.

If you ARE UNDER 21, then you do need to take the MSF course.

As a Blur owner, I wouldn't recommend someone with 0 experience with two-wheeled vehicles just jump on and go riding though. Definitely get experience on a different scoot and/or take the MSF course.

edited: totally forgot about over/under 21 <.< thanks guys!

Mutt the Hoople · Post by **Mutt the Hoople** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:45 am

Do you have the option of taking the MRSC through a community college? Here in Saint Louis we can and it costs less and they offer
More classes so not much of a waiting time. You take the test at the end of the course and you do not have to take it through the DMV. You should check to see if that's a possibility.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:06 am

Here you get hosed no matter where you take it. I think 5 years ago it was something like $250 or $300 in my neck of the woods. And that was at a CC. It probably costs more now.

Demo_Nic · Post by **Demo_Nic** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:42 am

In Ca if you are under 21 you have to take the MSF course. I brought in my Vespa ET3 and took the class with it.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:21 pm

^ Yup. Under 21 and you MUST take the course. Otherwise go about it however you wish, ride, be happy and have fun

I paid $34 and am now fully licensed just like anyone. And yes, I am a good, safe rider. And yes, I can go around that stupid circle thing they have at the DMV with my eyes closed. People have taken MSF because they can't conquer that!!

So there

Just sayin. It's a scooter and need not be needlessly complicated or prohibitively expensive if you want to ride. Take the course when you can. That's what I am going to do. If I could get ONE free and open weekend

People say "IT SHOULD BE A PRIORITY." But now I know how to ride, have read their handbook twice, and so it is not. And lot's of people take it first hand, get licensed, and walk out thinking "I am a better rider because I took this course."

Nope. No experience = no experience, period. 10 hours riding in a parking lot does not equal a "better rider" and many who suggest it does had riding experience prior. That should be noted for new riders. And if they took it first off with no experience, how the heck would they know? Riding is a personal thing.

If under 21 you must take the course, as noted. Otherwise when it comes to scooters if you have some guts you can DIY and get licensed.

Pretty sure it used to be like that for a very, very long time. Just be smart about it, and very patient. If you're sort of dumb and inpatient about learning, no course or anything will save you.

I am not sure if anyone has shown a stat yet which shows riders who take courses are by statistic less likely to have an accident or die in a crash. Or are "better riders." But this is ALL about saving our butts, ultimately. Does MSF save our lives? Who knows!?

Anyone?

gbjbany · Post by **gbjbany** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:45 pm

This is where I took my basic and advanced course
http://www.streetskillsmotorcycle.com/ in nor cal
TheY state on the basic course they will provide scooters upon request
It's not cheap but well worth it $230/240 unless under 21 then it's cheaper
Btw I took my basic on their motorcycle ( didnt have a scooter then)but my advanced on my 650 burgman

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:00 pm

I want to be clear. Many of you who rush in suggesting to a new rider to learn how to operate a scooter at a safety course did not learn that way, yourselves. In fact, I would bet dollars to donuts you did not. Just like I did not. Really? Your very first time on a bike? No, you didn't for the most part. Not Skootz, eric (who is actually fair on this issue) or most others. I read a lot of "I wish i had taken it sooner" and what not. But you didn't.

So why not suggest new riders get a permit and feel it out first, instead of going to get a license in two days to ride an 800 pound bike?

I do not believe I am alone on this side of the argument. And this will not become an MSF pro / con thread. But these are new riders. And I have met enough now who have taken that course who cannot ride well. And so have you. And they post here, too.

So, if you rode first and are a good rider you attribute it all to MSF? Did I not die yesterday in what I thought was an exciting 70 mile commute? But now I find I was in terrible danger and should have had the bubble of MSF around me.

And that's how it seems coming from experienced riders who come into threads suggesting the MSF to learn how to operate a simple bike like a scooter. You learned elsewhere, why can't others?

And if truth be known, I don't think anyone should be given an unrestricted M1 after two days of instruction. How is that for safety? Oh but hey, they passed the course. Now go get that Ducati racing bike.

Guys, I have enough experience now to know that is sort of B.S. Talk about unsafe....

Post by **ericalm** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:06 pm

JHScoot wrote:But this is ALL about saving our butts, ultimately. Does MSF save our lives? Who knows!?

Anyone?

The NHTSA and most other organization that gathers crash statistics. You're less likely to be in a fatal crash (or any kind of crash) if you've completed the course. Unfortunately, planning on taking it "someday" doesn't improve anyone's chances.

The one statistical analysis that was one years ago of the MB crash thread echoed this. Those who had not taken the MSF are much more likely to crash.

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but many people think they can ride just fine because they're proficient enough to get around town. What's missing is the proficiency in handling uncommon situations that often result in crashes.

Post by **ericalm** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:11 pm

JHScoot, I think you're crossing a lot of streams here.

All we are saying is that the course is a huge benefit to riders and, for new riders, is the best and fastest way of building a foundation of solid riding skills.

I had 10,000 miles experience when I took the course and still benefitted from it. Do I wish I'd taken it earlier? Yes.

Can people learn to ride without the course? Sure. Does doing it that way make them more likely to have a crash? Yes.

Does the course prepare people who take it to run out and ride a 1100cc monster on the streets? Nope. It's the basic riding course. From there, more training, education and experience might be needed.

But I'd rather have someone who completed that course on a Ducati than someone who just managed to pass the DMV test or who's just riding on a permit.

gbjbany · Post by **gbjbany** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:16 pm

Jhscoot - I can't speak for others but I did ride a motorbike for the first time at the basic course on a 250 rebel. My first vehicle after the course was a buddy rode that for 6 months then rode a sym 250 for 6 months and am now riding a 650 , I took the advanced course after a year because I wanted to get better , I don't believe I can learn all the skills on my own and so doing a course was by far the safest way for me.

I would add been driving for over 30 so my road skills are perhaps better than a 21 year old driving for 5 or 6 and I use them every ride, spotting the in attentive driver etc

I do agree taking a course and then jumping on. 850 lb bike is asking for trouble