Modern Buddy

So I hear that LML came out with a FI 200cc Stella, but for f*ck sake when is it comming States side? I can't wait no more [shakes body back and forth]!! O.K. rant over... Maybe I'll just go and get the 150cc....

I'm with you. I'd love one of them 200's too.

I absolutely want.

<-- Bated breath.

Skootz Kabootz wrote:I'm with you. I'd love one of them 200's too.

It honestly doesn't sound like the Non FI 200 has much more go than the Non FI 150 if I'm reading the LML UK Forum right. It gets to speed faster but doesn't have any longer of legs.

With the Non FI 150's only being what, 2 years old I cant see them being replaced so soon with a new model, Especially after all the pain they went through to get them here.

I wonder if you could buy a LML 4T 200cc engine and swap it in...

[quote="
I wonder if you could buy a LML 4T 200cc engine and swap it in...[/quote] That would do me just fine. The next day I have off.... To the dealer batman! [que that sound from the 60's TV show]

I know nothing about the particulars of the LML 200cc (though I hope for the best!), but I don't think I'd really need much more top end from a 200cc. Anything above 70mph (real mph) on those little tires is not really practical. But having the muscle to maintain speeds going uphill would be great. And the fuel injection would be so nice to have for the extreme altitude changes around here. Going from sea level to 7000+ feet in an hour or two can really suck the life out of a carbureted engine!

I know that Skootz cos I live between Big Bear and Wrightwood...

With as much effort as it took to get the 4 stroke version of the Stella 150 to pass, I honestly don't think we will be seeing the 200cc FI LML anytime soon. They simply just don't sell enough shifter bikes to justify the DOT certification and the costs and still import the standard 150 LML's

Drum Pro wrote:I know that Skootz cos I live between Big Bear and Wrightwood...

LOL. Say no more. That is exactly the ride I was thinking of. That and LA to Wrightwood.

neotrotsky wrote:With as much effort as it took to get the 4 stroke version of the Stella 150 to pass, I honestly don't think we will be seeing the 200cc FI LML anytime soon. They simply just don't sell enough shifter bikes to justify the DOT certification and the costs and still import the standard 150 LML's

I think I heard there was an automatic 200cc model too... I wouldn't be opposed to that if it is true!

Skootz Kabootz wrote:

Drum Pro wrote:I know that Skootz cos I live between Big Bear and Wrightwood...

LOL. Say no more. That is exactly the ride I was thinking of. That and LA to Wrightwood.

neotrotsky wrote:With as much effort as it took to get the 4 stroke version of the Stella 150 to pass, I honestly don't think we will be seeing the 200cc FI LML anytime soon. They simply just don't sell enough shifter bikes to justify the DOT certification and the costs and still import the standard 150 LML's

I think I heard there was an automatic 200cc model too... I wouldn't be opposed to that if it is true!

An automatic, 4-stroke, fuel injected Stella?

Just buy a Honda PCX, Buddy 170i or... I dunno... a modern Vespa since that's exactly what you described aside from the side mounted engine and have done with it at that rate. By the time you do that, it's no longer what makes a Stella appealing. The reason I love the Stella is because it is NOT the bloated, simplified and gentrified modern Vespas. Not interested in Genuine watering down the bike that makes them cooler than the rest

neotrotsky wrote:With as much effort as it took to get the 4 stroke version of the Stella 150 to pass, I honestly don't think we will be seeing the 200cc FI LML anytime soon. They simply just don't sell enough shifter bikes to justify the DOT certification and the costs and still import the standard 150 LML's

I wouldn't expect the 200cc version until the 150s start running out their warranties -- it's a logical upgrade from the 150 for current owners, but I suspect few would consider replacing a bike that's still under warranty.

That said, I would definitely buy a 200cc 4T Stella right now if they were available. I don't want one badly enough to buy a 150 and then import a 200 engine to swap into it, though I bet it's a fairly easy job.

I agree with Neo. Why I didn't buy a shifty in the first place? The world will never know...

Skootz Kabootz wrote:I think I heard there was an automatic 200cc model too... I wouldn't be opposed to that if it is true!

And 250 would be even better than 200, and fuel injection starts and runs smoother, and water cooled bikes handle the heat better, and a little larger tires would be good, but I want to keep that metal body - oh, wait (as neotrotsky observes), I already have a Vespa GTS in the garage .

Dooglas wrote:

Skootz Kabootz wrote:I think I heard there was an automatic 200cc model too... I wouldn't be opposed to that if it is true!

And 250 would be even better than 200, and fuel injection starts and runs smoother, and water cooled bikes handle the heat better, and a little larger tires would be good, but I want to keep that metal body - oh, wait (as neotrotsky observes), I already have a Vespa GTS in the garage .

It's worse than that.
It wouldn't just be competing against Vespa without the advantage of two decades of refinement, it'd be competing against generic Chinascoots which are cheaper, lighter, and have common (albeit often shoddily-made) parts.

The LML Star business case works as a niche product. It doesn't work as a commodity.

As long as the bike stays essentially a legacy-production P-Series with only the minimum changes required to meet smog/safety requirements (yes, including the 4T engine), it has its niche to itself. But that basic design hits its limits at about 200cc due to the limits of fan-driven air cooling and the unbalanced and un-sprung mass of the powertrain.

(To avoid TL:DR, I'll ramble on about those limits in another post)

The basic design of the classic Vespa scooters has some rather solid upper limits, aside from the cost of modifying long-since paid-for production tooling.

The first limit is the cooling capacity of fan-forced air cooling. Bigger engines need bigger (and heavier) fans, with resulting higher parasitic losses -- the fan has to push enough air to handle full power output, but is running constantly. This can be mitigated somewhat by adding a thermostat-controlled bypass (blow-off vent) as was done with air-cooled VWs, but at a cost of space, weight, and complexity.

The second limit is weight. The engine's mass is very off-centerline (Stellas have the spare tire on the opposite side for a counterweight). Increasing the engine size would make matters worse. Additionally, at some point a counterbalancer would be needed to manage the vibration from the single cylinder, and a decompression system would be needed to allow starting without an unreasonably large starter motor and battery. All of this extra weight would be both off-center and not damped by the suspension.

Essentially, above 200cc or so, diminishing returns set in. After that, it's easier to just start over from scratch -- and end up designing a Vespa GT (if you keep the unibody frame but not the manual transmission), an old-school Lambretta (if you keep the manual transmission but not the unibody), or just another generic scooter.

Dooglas wrote:

Skootz Kabootz wrote:I think I heard there was an automatic 200cc model too... I wouldn't be opposed to that if it is true!

And 250 would be even better than 200, and fuel injection starts and runs smoother, and water cooled bikes handle the heat better, and a little larger tires would be good, but I want to keep that metal body - oh, wait (as neotrotsky observes), I already have a Vespa GTS in the garage .

Oh sure, everybody pile on I totally want a GTS too. 300 Super please. Personally I'd like to have both a GTS and a 200 Stella. Esthetically the are two completely different scooters to me—not apples to apples at all and each great in their own way. Sadly I am in no danger of owning either any time soon.

I'm completely uninterested in anything automatic. I'd totally consider a new, bigger, smoother vespa instead of a Stella if I could shift the gears, but if you don't have a clutch you're just pointing the nose.

Given that 99.99% of motorcycles sold are manual, I don't understand why 99% of scooters sold have CVTs - clearly motorcycles outsell scooters in the US so it's not like Americans' unwillingness to shift their cars automatically translates into an unwillingness to shift their bikes. The majority of scooterists even took the motorcycle endorsement tests on motorcycles (through MSF courses and the like) so it's not like they don't know how to shift gears, even. So why is it that nobody makes a MODERN shifter scooter? Not that I particularly want one - my Bonneville meets my high-speed, long-distance need and my Stellas are great for anything else - but it's weird that I don't have the choice.

Seriously, name *ONE* automatic motorcycle that's sold in any numbers in the US, and then consider that all scooters were manual too until the late 1970s - so why just one manual scooter on the market?

Sorry, that got ranty. But I would love to have an answer.

Dude I wondered that too??? I want a shifty cos every car I ever owned was a shifty. It's not that I dislike my 170I, but it feels like somethings missing for me anyways. Almost a year ago I got the 170I cos at the time I was concerned about reliability and the only wrenching I do is to my foot peddle on my drums when I break out the double bass peddle and changing a head every once in a while. But now I WANT THAT SHIFTY GOODNESS just in a 200cc version. I don't even care if it's FI or not...

It's a packaging problem.
Other than the Vespa design (wheel driven directly from transmission output, engine output goes directly into manual transmission, engine/transmission unit is the rear swingarm), a manual transmission will end up being between the engine and the rear wheel. The other possible configurations to accomplish this are to put the step-through ahead of both the engine and transmission (Lambretta) or lay the engine down/forward and step over it (Suzuki Burgman 650*, Honda Passport**). The former results in a long wheelbase and a frame that's difficult to make rigid. The latter is arguably no longer a scooter as such.

Conventional CVT scooters solve this problem by having the drive belt (and pulleys) double as the transmission.

It's been difficult to make automatic motorcycles -- the Honda CM750A, 400A, and 450A automatics had two-speed manual transmissions with a torque converter. I've seen "Automatic 'motorcycles'" based on GY6 drivetrains, but they invariably looked odd. The closest thing to a real "automatic motorcycle" with a production history is the Burgman 650. Others include the Aprilia Mana 850, the Yamaha FJR1300AE, and the new Honda bikes. In all cases, the automatic transmission costs over $1500 more than a manual one (if available on that model) which can't really be helping sales.

* The Electronically-controlled CVT could be replaced by a manual transmission of about the same size and shape.
**still in legacy production as the SYM Symba

I personally can't stand shifters in cars or motorcycles. That's one big reason I have a scooter. And yes, I owned shifters in both for decades. But I much prefer automatics. I can throw the same logic back at you - Why are all cars offered in automatics but not motorcycles?

Evidently there IS a market for a well spec'd automatic motorcycle. Try buying one of the new Honda NC700X DCT ABS's. You can't. Why not? Because the entire year's production is virtually pre-sold due to off-the-charts demand.

k1dude wrote:I personally can't stand shifters in cars or motorcycles. That's one big reason I have a scooter. And yes, I owned shifters in both for decades. But I much prefer automatics. I can throw the same logic back at you - Why are all cars offered in automatics but not motorcycles?

Because automatic cars are for people who feel the need to do everything BUT drive while driving. Americans aren't smart enough to tend to their children and drive at the same time, hence the DVD played in the backseat and automatic transmission.

I think automatics should be reserved for those with physical limitations that prevent them from being able to use a clutch or gearshift. The able-bodied should be made to actually drive their cars.

kitty wrote:

k1dude wrote:I personally can't stand shifters in cars or motorcycles. That's one big reason I have a scooter. And yes, I owned shifters in both for decades. But I much prefer automatics. I can throw the same logic back at you - Why are all cars offered in automatics but not motorcycles?

Because automatic cars are for people who feel the need to do everything BUT drive while driving. Americans aren't smart enough to tend to their children and drive at the same time, hence the DVD played in the backseat and automatic transmission.

I think automatics should be reserved for those with physical limitations that prevent them from being able to use a clutch or gearshift. The able-bodied should be made to actually drive their cars.

This

Wow, I'm glad you two aren't emperor and empress of the world. You have no tolerance for those with different preferences than your own. I also like how you label people into mischaracterized pigeonholed roles.

I believe it's called intolerance or prejudice.

I suppose grapefruit shall only be eaten in halves. Because that's what it says in the "Book of Rules."

k1dude wrote:Wow, I'm glad you two aren't emperor and empress of the world. You have no tolerance for those with different preferences than your own. I also like how you label people into mischaracterized pigeonholed roles.

I believe it's called intolerance or prejudice.

I suppose grapefruit shall only be eaten in halves. Because that's what it says in the "Book of Rules."

Well said. It's amazing how such an ordinary original post can turn into those two posts.

k1dude wrote:Wow, I'm glad you two aren't emperor and empress of the world. You have no tolerance for those with different preferences than your own. I also like how you label people into mischaracterized pigeonholed roles.

I believe it's called intolerance or prejudice.

I suppose grapefruit shall only be eaten in halves. Because that's what it says in the "Book of Rules."

Wow. It's opinion. Guess what: Someone doesn't share yours. It's fine. MANY people operate without opinions that match. Get over it. You want an automatic, fuel injected steel scooter get a GTS. I had one, they're great! Expensive as all hell, but great bikes.

But, it still doesn't change my opinion of people who insist the entire world be dumbed down to their limited skills because they feel like they're left out are selfish little things. I am of the mind that automatic transmissions suck in general for the pleasure of riding. Yes, for a commuter they are fine but I try to avoid them at all costs (which is probably why I'm getting a Symba or 4T Stella for a daily driver). That's why they make different bikes.

Now, if you want to go out, buy a Stella and MAKE it an automatic, I'll applaud the engineering skills it would take. But, frankly this constant whining about wanting something that really has no need to exist just sounds irritating when it already DOES exist.

I love driving manual cars, but wouldn't own another (as my full-time commuting vehicle) while living in the center of LA. It's a pain in the ass and impractical for this area. I went through several clutches in my VW.

Yet I love riding my shifty scooter through traffic in LA. It's a much different experience, though. More fun than PITA.

You can buy the 200cc carbureted Stella (Star) 4T engine from LML in India. I know it was available in the UK. You'd be better off (budget, performance and speed wise) getting the bigger carb and waiting for a cylinder kit and bigger head to come out here. Only a matter of time.

The Stella 200FI might just be more than the US market could tolerate. As it is, a Stella's not a cheap bike considering its performance and other qualities. People are paying for the style and transmission. Would a 200FI be worth the cost of importing if the MSRP was $800-$1000 more? Maybe not. As is, the scooter market is still sluggish and Stella 4Ts haven't been selling like gangbusters.

Introducing an upgraded model while keeping the 150cc in the lineup would be very costly for both Genuine and dealers. Eliminating the 150 would mean they give up on having a shifter at that price point.

I appreciate both shifting and manual scooters, but there are clear reasons why auto scooters rule the market. That's what most new scooter buyers want. Those who want to buy something new and shift could often save money by getting a motorcycle. In 2012, for most people, scooters = automatics. Those are what sell. There are still a few unsold millennium Vespa PXs in shops around the country. It's a niche market.

Ask many would-be or new scooter buyers what they want and they'll tell you they want something that looks like an old Vespa (even a P/PX, ha) but is an auto.

At the time the Stella/Star 4T was announced, there was as rumor of LML's development plans for the platform: a carbureted 200cc engine sold as a part, a 200cc FI version, then a 250cc automatic. So far, two of three of these have held true.

LML is coming out with a smallframe PK that has a modern CVT, not like the POS transmission the Vespa PK Automaticas had.

k1dude wrote:Wow, I'm glad you two aren't emperor and empress of the world. You have no tolerance for those with different preferences than your own. I also like how you label people into mischaracterized pigeonholed roles.

I believe it's called intolerance or prejudice.

I suppose grapefruit shall only be eaten in halves. Because that's what it says in the "Book of Rules."

You started off your statement saying you couldn't stand manuals, therefore trashing what I love. You asked why motorcycles didn't come in automatic like cars, and I gave you the answer. Mindless Americans. That's the only reason cars come in automatic, and you can't be mindless on a motorcycle.

Maybe if the topic was about giving fast food to kids, the conversation would be different, but the same motive behind it: Mindless laziness.

I also noticed living in California that there were the most offenders, trying to find a manual car there was next to impossible, so sad. Most of the people driving stick were east coast transplants.

kitty wrote:

k1dude wrote:I personally can't stand shifters in cars or motorcycles. That's one big reason I have a scooter. And yes, I owned shifters in both for decades. But I much prefer automatics. I can throw the same logic back at you - Why are all cars offered in automatics but not motorcycles?

Because automatic cars are for people who feel the need to do everything BUT drive while driving. Americans aren't smart enough to tend to their children and drive at the same time, hence the DVD played in the backseat and automatic transmission.

That's simply not true. Automatic transmissions have been widely available and popular in the US since the 1950s, but existed prior to that. Their popularity has much more to do with urban driving conditions than the mindlessness of Americans.

People can have their preferences, but there's really no need for anyone on either side to be a dick about it. Neither is superior. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Some will prefer one over the other, and may have perfectly legitimate reasons for doing so.

Let's curb the bickering and the attitude.

I've never driven automatic and never had a problem in any condition, including LA, Orange County, and NYC.

There's certain things I've never really been able to tolerate, automatic transmissions being near the top of the list, possibly tied with poor grammar.

kitty wrote:I've never driven automatic and never had a problem in any condition, including LA, Orange County, and NYC.

There's certain things I've never really been able to tolerate, automatic transmissions being near the top of the list, possibly tied with poor grammar.

Uh huh. I guess you're just superior to those millions of automatic drivers and riders in that way. Congratulations, I'm sure that's serving you well in life.

That level of intolerance has no place here though, and is best kept to yourself or tempered.

If you're that intolerant of poor grammar, I'm amazed that you can stand any type of online forum. If I can conceal my disdain for misused apostrophes and those who confuse "lose" and "loose," I'm sure you can keep a lid on your passionate, deeply-felt opinions about automatic transmissions.

kitty wrote:You started off your statement saying you couldn't stand manuals, therefore trashing what I love.

OK, so somebody really doesn't like manuals. Why would you take that personally?
Perhaps you should take a little advice from your (abrasive) supporter in this pissing contest you've started:

neotrotsky wrote:Wow. It's opinion. Guess what: Someone doesn't share yours.

kitty wrote:You asked why motorcycles didn't come in automatic like cars, and I gave you the answer. Mindless Americans. That's the only reason cars come in automatic...

No, it really isn't. Understand: I've never owned a car with automatic transmission. All else being equal, manuals get better mileage, and I don't mind operating them. So I'm not taking your rather insulting remark personally. I just know that your assumption here is incorrect. The people who buy automatics do it mostly for convenience, which is a not the same thing as being "mindless". Some feel that it frees them up to focus more on their speed and direction, and less on the mechanics of the drive train. I disagree... but that's OK; they can be right about what suits them, and I can be right about what suits me.... and they don't have to be the same. I know some very thoughtful and intelligent people who drive automatic cars, people who pay close attention to their driving at all times. So kindly drop the condescending attitude about them.

"Keep smelling the flowers, Todd" - Philip McCaleb

I feel I opened a can of worms starting this thread. Anyways, I'm gonna go to the dealer in a few days to see about a shifty...(cream and blue).

neotrotsky wrote:Wow. It's opinion. Guess what: Someone doesn't share yours. It's fine. MANY people operate without opinions that match. Get over it.

Pot meet kettle. Aren't you the one getting in a huff over my opinion because you don't share it?

And by the way, intolerance and prejudice are in fact, opinions.

kitty wrote:I've never driven automatic and never had a problem in any condition, including LA, Orange County, and NYC.

There's certain things I've never really been able to tolerate, automatic transmissions being near the top of the list, possibly tied with poor grammar.

So you hate something you've never driven. Nice.

Good luck with your intolerance. You'll need it.

DON"T BEAT THE RED HORSE

TVB wrote:Some feel that it frees them up to focus more on their speed and direction, and less on the mechanics of the drive train.

THAT'S exactly my issue with it. I want to know that the people operating large chunks of metal in my vicinity are OPERATING THE VEHICLE.

I remember being 15, my mother bought me an old VW, stick of course, she said no way no how will I be allowed to drive an automatic. While all the other kids at school got brand new cars with every bell and whistle, including an automatic transmission, I had my old VW, four speed with no radio, and dammit I DROVE that car. I didn't STEER the car. It pisses me off when I hear people say that they want their kids to drive automatic because there's no "distraction." Driving the car is not a distraction! If you can't handle driving a car, then you shouldn't be driving a car!

k1dude wrote: So you hate something you've never driven. Nice.

Good luck with your intolerance. You'll need it.

Damn right I'm intolerant, I feel no need to be forced to shut up in order to save someone's feelings. This is why America is so dumbed down. "Ohh, he has trouble reading? He'll be okay, we'll pass him to the next grade anyway, he'll catch on."

Anyway, we in fact own one automatic, it's a workhorse van, it's used to haul furniture and garbage cans. I'm hoping for a more reasonable replacement for it one day. I've never and will never have an automatic daily driver, there is absolutely no need for that nonsense.

kitty wrote:

k1dude wrote: So you hate something you've never driven. Nice.

Good luck with your intolerance. You'll need it.

Damn right I'm intolerant, I feel no need to be forced to shut up in order to save someone's feelings. This is why America is so dumbed down. "Ohh, he has trouble reading? He'll be okay, we'll pass him to the next grade anyway, he'll catch on."

Anyway, we in fact own one automatic, it's a workhorse van, it's used to haul furniture and garbage cans. I'm hoping for a more reasonable replacement for it one day. I've never and will never have an automatic daily driver, there is absolutely no need for that nonsense.

So that means you lied to us. You have in fact driven and actually own an automatic. I think we now know who is contributing to dumbed down America.

k1dude wrote:

kitty wrote:

k1dude wrote: So you hate something you've never driven. Nice.

Good luck with your intolerance. You'll need it.

Damn right I'm intolerant, I feel no need to be forced to shut up in order to save someone's feelings. This is why America is so dumbed down. "Ohh, he has trouble reading? He'll be okay, we'll pass him to the next grade anyway, he'll catch on."

Anyway, we in fact own one automatic, it's a workhorse van, it's used to haul furniture and garbage cans. I'm hoping for a more reasonable replacement for it one day. I've never and will never have an automatic daily driver, there is absolutely no need for that nonsense.

So that means you lied to us. You have in fact driven and actually own an automatic. I think we now know who is contributing to dumbed down America.

There are six cars "I have driven," meaning operated regularly as my own car. I've operated hundreds of cars in the course of working at dealerships, SOs' cars, rental cars, etc. I'm sorry I had to clarify that further, I didn't think it was necessary.

Wow, come onto a board consisting of 90% automatic scooter riders and state that it's a known fact that people that drive automatics are drooling morons, then complain that no one agrees with your 'opinion?' Where I come from, that's called a troll. A big, juicy, meaty troll.

I guess when you were working at car dealerships, and dating people driving automatic cars, you shared that same opinion with your customers and mates, right to their faces and that went over really well, right?

You're entitled to your bats**t "opinion," but presenting it as some sort of fact, then whining that no one (but neotrotsky, of course) agrees with you is not going to work out so well here, Eric gave you a very clear (and nearly polite) warning, this is your second and more official warning, chill out.

Please accept our apologies for not being as enlightened as you, you have three choices:
1) stick around and speak to us mortals less condescendingly and insultingly,
2) leave us to suffer in our ignorance, and search for a commune of like-minded superior geniuses to welcome you with open arms,
3) Keep it up, and allow us to make the decision for you.

Bryan

Drum Pro wrote:I feel I opened a can of worms starting this thread. Anyways, I'm gonna go to the dealer in a few days to see about a shifty...(cream and blue).

You did no such thing, and you are certainly not the one that owes anyone an apology.

illnoise wrote:

Drum Pro wrote:I feel I opened a can of worms starting this thread. Anyways, I'm gonna go to the dealer in a few days to see about a shifty...(cream and blue).

You did no such thing, and you are certainly not the one that owes anyone an apology.

+1

I still want a 200cc FI (manual) Stella, which I believe this thread was started off with.

Hey, I simply stated that there is no need to make everything automatic and if he wanted an automatic there are plenty fine bikes. Not everything must be made easy and accessible because someone whines about it. I take offence at being grouped with the troll who just wants to start sparks.

And throwing words of "intolerance" and "prejudiced" around over a goddamed scooter is pretty petty and a dick move. If anything the trolling is a result of direct troll baiting for attention.

So after the original post, but before the flame war, I asked what I think is an interesting question, which got one answer before being derailed by the flame war. I'll try again.

Given that almost all motorcycles are manual, clearly people aren't afraid to shift two wheeled vehicles. And yet there's only one shifty scoot available on the us market. Why don't we have more shifting choices? I don't think less of people who ride automatics and that's not the point of the question; I personally choose to have a clutch and am curious why scooters don't have them, other than the Stella. After all, scooters are just small motorcycles with a step through frame. Opinions that don't involve flaming?

talindsay wrote:So after the original post, but before the flame war, I asked what I think is an interesting question, which got one answer before being derailed by the flame war. I'll try again.

Given that almost all motorcycles are manual, clearly people aren't afraid to shift two wheeled vehicles. And yet there's only one shifty scoot available on the us market. Why don't we have more shifting choices? I don't think less of people who ride automatics and that's not the point of the question; I personally choose to have a clutch and am curious why scooters don't have them, other than the Stella. After all, scooters are just small motorcycles with a step through frame. Opinions that don't involve flaming?

I tried to provide an answer above: mechanically, it's awkward to fit a manual transmission into a scooter form factor. LML and Bajaj (as Vespa before them) put the transmission on the swingarm, but in a way that required the engine to be offset from the centerline.

The other ways to do this end up looking either like a Lambretta or a Honda Passport. In the first case, you end up with an awkwardly long wheelbase and a heavy or flexy frame, in the second, you might as well make it a motorcycle.

Ahhhh... nothing quite brings a smile to my face as reading through a thread of moronic ideology. Thank you, everyone.

talindsay wrote:So after the original post, but before the flame war, I asked what I think is an interesting question, which got one answer before being derailed by the flame war. I'll try again.

Given that almost all motorcycles are manual, clearly people aren't afraid to shift two wheeled vehicles. And yet there's only one shifty scoot available on the us market. Why don't we have more shifting choices? I don't think less of people who ride automatics and that's not the point of the question; I personally choose to have a clutch and am curious why scooters don't have them, other than the Stella. After all, scooters are just small motorcycles with a step through frame. Opinions that don't involve flaming?

The other major market bike that allows one to row their own gears is the Honda Cub/passport/trail/sym symba. But, it is a semi-auto transmission with no clutch, but manual gears. Honda saw this as the best of all worlds for the technology at the time, and it was the most popular bike in history.

Manufacturing advances have made cvt's dirt cheap and bulletproof (when left stock and done right). Cost plus ease of use have made it the 99% of small displacement bikes, which makes fans of bikes like the Stella and the symba so "passionate" shall we say.

But, otherwise you are correct, there are few. Is it an older tech? Yes. Is it reliable? Very. Does that make them better than cvt's? No. Just a different approach. I prefer the dying breed of shifter bikes in general, but i have had a Vespa GTS, Honda elite 50 and 250

neotrotsky wrote:And throwing words of "intolerance" and "prejudiced" around over a goddamed scooter is pretty petty and a dick move. If anything the trolling is a result of direct troll baiting for attention.

So I'm a dick and a baiting troll for stating I prefer automatics. Nice distorted logic there kettle.

And nice language. You should be proud.

jmer1234 wrote:Ahhhh... nothing quite brings a smile to my face as reading through a thread of moronic ideology. Thank you, everyone.

Some people were having a nice conversation, here, I wouldn't say it's full of it.
How bout you jmer, what are your thoughts on the the Stella? Should Drum Pro get one?
I say do it Drum Pro, if that's what you want.
I love the look of the Stella, but I think I'd have to have it in the 2t flavor. Something about that smell....
Might be a nice bike for the city?