The word vintage...

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:00 am

Does anybody else feel that the word "vintage" is misleading? Old is a better word. It's the clothing and auto industry's "gourmet".
There's no point to this thread but why pay more for things that are in no way better than current unless you reeally like it... or your stuck in the past but living in the now? (Of course this doesn't apply to everythig tho)....

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:32 am

With automotive technology, newer is NOT better for everything. In fact, much of the driving dynamic has been lost due to a desire for safety, automatic piloting and willful ignorance. I can state for a fact that there is no more satisfying thing than driving a manual shift, lightweight roadster from the 1970's or a simple Honda CB twin cylinder and feeling connected to the road. This is because there isn't electric assist or hydraulic powered assist in between the controls and the road.

Also, there is a level of craftsmanship with many machines that are less present in modern manufacturing. Sure, a Datsun 510 is hardly a coachbuilt sedan, but what about a vintage Cadillac? Or a Norton Commando? Compared to more modern Cadillacs or the modern motorcycle equivalent, they are simply more sculpted in a way. The new autos are hardly bad, but they are precision manufactured and have a very clinical feel to them.

Do modern cars make better commuters? You BET they do! I'd rather have a Hyundai Accent than a 1962 Ford Falcon for a daily driver, simply because I know the Hyundai will start in the morning and get at least 30-35mpg. And, the window cranks won't fall off if you look at them funny (I know: I owned a Falcon). It's why I ride a Kymco Agility instead of a Vintage Vespa. I had a P200e and LOVED it, until the clutch cable broke AGAIN or when it wouldn't pass emissions even after replacing the cylinder, piston and rebuilding the carb. Then, the aspect of simply changing the oil every 2k seemed VERY appealing! A transmission that I could rebuild in 15 minutes tops? Nice. Clean burning 4 stroke power? Also nice.

But, I still have a Stella restoration project. Why? Because the Kymco feels like an appliance, which it is. There isn't as much FUN while riding. The Stella growls through the gears, it rides smoother due to a different balance, suspension and the heavier weight of steel. It fits better with it's long flat seat and very un-ergonomic handlebars that fit my long arms perfect. It's a bountiful platform for customization and for racks on every surface. It simply does things the Kymco cannot.

Except tell me how full it's tank is with a proper working gas gauge. But, as Apple likes calling it's flaws: "It's a feature".

Vintage isn't bad, or is it outdated. But, it's not better. Neither is new. Sometimes, you spend so much time trying to re-invent the wheel or to copy what someone got perfect that you miss the mark entirely. Like The AK-47, or Rolex watches or even the Swiss Army Knife. Some things just get it right for the era they were designed. They do what they were designed to do perfectly. If you want to do MORE, then yes... this is where innovation steps in. But sometimes, you don't want to do more, or don't need to.

Rusty Shackleford · Post by **Rusty Shackleford** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:08 pm

Drum Pro wrote:Does anybody else feel that the word "vintage" is misleading? Old is a better word. It's the clothing and auto industry's "gourmet". There's no point to this thread but why pay more for things that are in no way better than current unless you reeally like it... or your stuck in the past but living in the now? (Of course this doesn't apply to everything tho)....

Haha, automotive "gourmet" is a good way of describing that particular buzzword. Even retro styling is really popular right now in modern vehicles. Not just in scooters, but cars and motorcycles, too. The local "vintage" bike shop can't keep cafe' racers on the floor and the Triumph "Classic" series bikes are the talk of the town. As for cars, even my parents went out and bought the new Dodge Charger. The aesthetic had more character "back in the day" in many people's eyes. Cars are vastly more reliable and efficient now, but a lot of folks view it as happening at the expense of the vehicle's more... intangible.... qualities. Heck, it even happens in musical instruments. There's been a crap load of "vintage-reissue" guitars coming out in the past couple of years. There's so many variants of the Fender Jaguar now, it's crazy. Me? I think vintage styling is fine, but I'll take modern technology any day. Also, think about this for irony: if scooterists were still "mod", they'd want the newest, sleekest, high tech, scooter on the market.

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:49 pm

This was more of a wind up. Some one tried to sell me a 56 Slingerland 5 piece yesterday and it was rather rusted, sounded like sh*t, and there was NO WAY to restore it and they wanted $2000. Took one look at it and said "No I'll stick with the Yamaha maple custom I already have"... I first started playing drums on a Slingerland and I cracked the tom cos it kept going out of tune...

DCUNITED4LIFE · Post by **DCUNITED4LIFE** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:23 pm

"Artisinal" another one of those.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:43 pm

A bit harder to have a "vintage" versus modern discussion on this site as the Buddy is certainly modern and the Stella is a new bike with an old design. Do you call a Stella a vintage scooter? Do a call a 2T Stella a vintage scooter? Easier to have that discussion when talking Vespas. A 4T Vespa with a CVT is a modern Vespa. A 2T Vespa with manual transmission is a vintage Vespa. (though I understand some purists out there think that a P200 is not yet vintage, I can't help them

)

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:01 pm

Dooglas wrote:A bit harder to have a "vintage" versus modern discussion on this site as the Buddy is certainly modern and the Stella is a new bike with an old design. Do you call a Stella a vintage scooter? Do a call a 2T Stella a vintage scooter? Easier to have that discussion when talking Vespas. A 4T Vespa with a CVT is a modern Vespa. A 2T Vespa with manual transmission is a vintage Vespa. (though I understand some purists out there think that a P200 is not yet vintage, I can't help them )

Here in the Arid-zona, a motor vehicle can sport a "vintage" license plate once it has aged a minimum of 25 years and the owner is willing to cough up an additional $10 annually for the copper plate. I own an '81 P200E and an '83 Riva 180, and I consider them both vintage. The both wear a copper tag. Sad bit is, my '87 Elite 80 will qualify for a copper tag now, and if I hadn't decided to nab a Yager GT200i before they were discontinued, *all* of my scooters could wear the copper tag.

I've had a '75 Rally 200 rider call my P "too disco". even though both bikes had the same engine (200cc VSE1M with the Ducati ignition). Guess it boils down to how the tin is stamped for some blokes. It was fun romping on by him on a long straightaway with my disco bike.

Looks aside, I propose that "vintage" is quality without a standard unit of measure. Sort of like a worn-in pair of comfortable shoes versus a new pair of shoes. The old shoe might be a bit scuffed, smell a bit and the laces are a slightly frayed, but they have developed a feel over time that the wearer is comfortable and familiar with. On a scooter, the suspension softens a bit over time, making for a more compliant ride, linkages wear in enough to make actuation feel a bit smoother, rough edges wear off rubber and plastic castings and feel more inviting to touch, seat springs and foam padding surrender a bit of their tension and become more supple. These are aspects that I believe lend a "vintage" quality to a scooter.

By looking at a Stella through that lens, I believe the Stella is considered vintage by some based on its look and feel, and how it evokes memories.

I consider the Stella an evolution of the older bikes and recognize several mechanical differences. As for a practical reason why it is liked by "vintage" afficionados, I think that the performance characteristics of the manual gearbox and the 2T engine are similar enough that it flows well when being ridden along with the older bikes.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:18 pm

When it comes to scooters the definition of Vintage is always a kind of a hot topic issue. For me...if it has turn signals...it ain't vintage!

In my opinion (YMMV) the 68 SS 180 was the last vintage Vespa. Two stroke piston ported Sport series!

Personally, a Stella, while a fun classic scooter just isn't vintage. Some will argue "well what's the difference?"

Fuel gauges, oil injectors, neutral lights, disc brakes, TURN SIGNALS

, electric start (those are for one legged pirates and wussies!) etc etc makes them a modern version of a classic scooter.

Again...just my opinion!

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:27 pm

i prefer old

Drum Pro · Post by **Drum Pro** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:47 pm

I know this is a scooter form but my op was more about why people jack up prices really ridiculously on old stuff... As for scoots I think a Vespa P/Px is "vintage" simply cos of it's age as compaired to the new tec., and a Stella is just a really good clone, but that don't mean I'm gonna pay over the odds for a Vespa. Maybe if it was a popular movie prop or some super famous person owned it and it was still in tip top shape, although unlikely for me anyways. Some things are just class. Like a strata violin and deserve the price for what you get but 9/10 it isn't the case. It's just older. I'ts cool if that's what your into as I'm not judging anyone as I love the styling of the old rather than the new, but it's kinda an akward standard we live in. Kinda like wanting a new Keybord that has all the old + the new and deciding on buying a Moog...

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:53 pm

BuddyRaton wrote:In my opinion (YMMV) the 68 SS 180 was the last vintage Vespa. Two stroke piston ported Sport series!

You forgot "points, 6V electricals and premix ratios of 5% and above" on that list.

Never figured out why the "sport" models were piston ported. A properly tuned rotary valve can allow plenty of charge in while remaining asymetrical enough to not regurgitate some of it back up the inlet.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:33 pm

Good points! (I couldn't help it) I agree that a rotary should do the job there is just something so right about a piston ported when it gets into the sweet zone!

SYMbionic Duo · Post by **SYMbionic Duo** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:51 pm

BuddyRaton wrote:When it comes to scooters the definition of Vintage is always a kind of a hot topic issue. For me...if it has turn signals...it ain't vintage!

In my opinion (YMMV) the 68 SS 180 was the last vintage Vespa. Two stroke piston ported Sport series!

Personally, a Stella, while a fun classic scooter just isn't vintage. Some will argue "well what's the difference?"

Fuel gauges, oil injectors, neutral lights, disc brakes, TURN SIGNALS , electric start (those are for one legged pirates and wussies!) etc etc makes them a modern version of a classic scooter.

Again...just my opinion!

If I don't use any of those, can i call it vintage?

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:05 pm

SYMbionic Duo wrote:If I don't use any of those, can i call it vintage?

Go piston ported, then we'll talk.

SYMbionic Duo · Post by **SYMbionic Duo** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:08 pm

i think that would be a crime, putting a SS or GS engine in a Stella.

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:12 pm

Nah, just blank off the Stella's reed cage and drop this badnasty on.

SYMbionic Duo · Post by **SYMbionic Duo** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:15 pm

my what a big carb you have.

heyitsomid · Post by **heyitsomid** » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:03 am

az_slynch wrote:
Here in the Arid-zona, a motor vehicle can sport a "vintage" license plate once it has aged a minimum of 25 years and the owner is willing to cough up an additional $10 annually for the copper plate. I own an '81 P200E and an '83 Riva 180, and I consider them both vintage. The both wear a copper tag. Sad bit is, my '87 Elite 80 will qualify for a copper tag now, and if I hadn't decided to nab a Yager GT200i before they were discontinued, *all* of my scooters could wear the copper tag.

Only $10 its like $73 or something in CA.

"Vintage" to me is when the age of the item only adds to its character. The patinas, the tears are are all in a certain aesthetic moderation. Having owned at '64 Honda Cub that had mostly original parts, vintage is old but in a magical way. All those parts still working together after 48 yrs is kind of amazing.

KABarash · Post by **KABarash** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:50 pm

JHScoot wrote:i prefer old

My thoughts exactly!
My kids, now 29, 24 & 18 call all the 'old' clothes in my closet 'Vintage'
Does that make me 'Vintage' too??

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:33 pm

KABarash wrote:Does that make me 'Vintage' too??

Depends. Has age added character to you?

KABarash · Post by **KABarash** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:55 pm

az_slynch wrote:
KABarash wrote:Does that make me 'Vintage' too??
Depends. Has age added character to you?

Oh, I am a 'character' alright......

Tristik · Post by **Tristik** » Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:51 am

~~
Was watching the morning news the other day and the reporter was at an Antique's Show in Milwaukee. Interesting thing is he asked the person running the expo what the difference between Antique and Vintage was:

Antique: 100+ years old

Vintage: 50-100 years old

Thought that was interesting. So I guess anything made before 1962 is technically "Vintage".

Continue with that line of thinking and I would have to think "Retro" means something before the current gen, but not older than 50 years old. Sounds good to me heh.
~~

Tazio · Post by **Tazio** » Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:56 pm

At 75 I'm not old, I'm vintage

Modern Buddy

The word vintage...

The word vintage...

Re: The word vintage...