dkw does an about face....

dkw12002 · Post by **dkw12002** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:12 am

I am picking up a 2014 Roughhouse tomorrow. I know I said I didn't like how hard it is to take off the center stand and was looking at the Buddies instead, but since there is a side stand...no problem. Also the center stand being almost in the front to back center of gravity means you only have to apply 5 lbs. of downward force or so on the rear to have the scooter pivot so the front wheel is up and rear wheel is down rather than visa versa. This will come in handy when checking steering bearings, changing tires, etc. Also I made a slightly better deal on the new scooter...or potentially at least. I asked the dealer how often it will need to have the engine rebuilt. He said could be as low as 6-8,000 miles but probably later. He pointed out the rebuild takes about an hour of labor and parts are very inexpensive and might cost about $200 if his dealership does it, so I asked if him to do a rebuild if and when I need one for free and he agreed. Not likely I will still have the scooter at that time, but it is kind of an insurance policy and gives me peace of mind since I ride so much, should I decide I want to keep the scooter for several years. Anyway, he is charging the battery and going to do the derestricting tomorrow and baring rain, I will pick it up tomorrow afternoon. The more I think about that center stand, the more I like it really even though it is farther forward of where most scooter stands would be meaning you must lift up the back either by the luggage rack or rear handle to place it on the stand, but knowing all I have to do to change the front tire is tie down the rear wheel is a plus. Anyway, I will file a ride report when I get a few miles on it.

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:58 pm

I seriously doubt it will need to be rebuilt every 6-8k. Though you could really thrash it and get there, I doubt it. Modern 2t engines, if you're nice to them, should go a long way before a top end rebuild.

Be wary of side stands. They will betray you! Many of us have lost a left brake lever to this mistake.

Ninjasurfergirl · Post by **Ninjasurfergirl** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:50 pm

I sucked at using my center stand at first too, to the point where I once had to have a random stranger get my scooter on the stand when I parked it, but the more I used it the easier it got. Guess they just need to be broken in. My fiance has a side stand on her motorcycle, and is always kind of nervous if we're parking somewhere kind of uneven, in a dirt area, etc. because it doesn't seem too stable; I don't have that problem with my center stand so I think it's worth it to learn how to use it and get it broken in.

dkw12002 · Post by **dkw12002** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:10 pm

The center stand on the Buddy is easy and I am used to using center stands. My Vespa 300 weighs in at 360 lbs. wet and I have no problem putting it on the center stand, but what they did with the Roughhouse...I assume it was engineered that way...is place the stand farther forward so you lose a lot of mechanical advantage. Most scooters if you center the bike side to side then just put your weight on the stand, it will lift the bike. Not so, the Roughhouse. You MUST lift at the same time. Luckily there is a handle for the passenger right where it needs to be to do this, but I will be ok now that I know how to do it. Oh yes, that side stand on the Roughhouse is not connected to a cutoff switch, so you CAN ride away with it down. I thought all bikes now had to have the safety switch to stop the engine when you did that. I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a recall item cause I think it's illegal in the US to sell bikes without that mechanism now....rightfully so, it can be dangerous. I ride all the time though and am so used to getting on the bike and kicking up the stand first thing, that I will be fine with it.

lovemysan · Post by **lovemysan** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:38 pm

The buddy side stand is mostly harmless if left down. I forget it all the time. It pops up as soon as you drag it.

skipper20 · Post by **skipper20** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:38 pm

dkw12002 wrote:The center stand on the Buddy is easy and I am used to using center stands. My Vespa 300 weighs in at 360 lbs. wet and I have no problem putting it on the center stand, but what they did with the Roughhouse...I assume it was engineered that way...is place the stand farther forward so you lose a lot of mechanical advantage. Most scooters if you center the bike side to side then just put your weight on the stand, it will lift the bike. Not so, the Roughhouse. You MUST lift at the same time. Luckily there is a handle for the passenger right where it needs to be to do this, but I will be ok now that I know how to do it. Oh yes, that side stand on the Roughhouse is not connected to a cutoff switch, so you CAN ride away with it down. I thought all bikes now had to have the safety switch to stop the engine when you did that. I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a recall item cause I think it's illegal in the US to sell bikes without that mechanism now....rightfully so, it can be dangerous. I ride all the time though and am so used to getting on the bike and kicking up the stand first thing, that I will be fine with it.

Buddy scooters and Blur scooters don't have that cutoff switch. And, I'm sure there are quite a few other brands that don't have that switch either.

Bill in Seattle
'12 170i Italia
'11 220i Blur
'08 250ie Sport City

dkw12002 · Post by **dkw12002** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:58 pm

Nice to know. I don't know of any bikes being sold today other than these that don't have the safety mechanism. In any case it is nice to know nothing much happens if you leave it down. Youtube has several videos of older bikes where the down kickstand caused a crash. It does seem like it would just catch a split second and flip up as you say...unless for example you were backing out of a parking place and turning to your left at the same time. Then it wouldn't flip up...the kickstand I mean. The scooter might.

dkw12002 · Post by **dkw12002** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:24 pm

Concerning rebuilding. The dealer knows a lot about these bikes and 2-strokes and also knows how I ride and he said probably about 8,000 miles. I have no experience with these, but when I tried to look up the question of how many miles, I got some forums where people rebuild them every year or more often, but I think those are race bikes where they ride well over redline a lot. I certainly won't do that, and I doubt my Roughhouse is set up to do that for now even if I ride it wot most of the time, but I'm not sure about that. Oh yes, dirt bikes were the other category where people seemed to do a lot of rebuilds after 20 hours or 40 hours, for example. 20 hours is like 1000 miles and 40 hours corresponds to 2000 miles so I know that can't be right for this bike, yet the smaller bikes are the ones that need the more rebuilds I think. I guess you guys would know if you've been riding 2-strokes for a while. Any examples of when you needed a rebuild and what kind of riding you do? Dealer said you know it needs a rebuild if it loses power, runs rough, or the piston freezes....hopefully I don't experience the latter 100 miles from home.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:22 pm

skully93 wrote:I seriously doubt it will need to be rebuilt every 6-8k. Though you could really thrash it and get there, I doubt it. Modern 2t engines, if you're nice to them, should go a long way before a top end rebuild.

Mine went 22,000 miles, over 4.5 years. That's about 75% daily commuting and getting around town for 9 months out of the year, and 25% road trips averaging 100-150 miles/day. So not abusing it, but not babying it either.

dkw12002 · Post by **dkw12002** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:39 pm

Wow, that's encouraging. Thanks for the info.

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:44 pm

before we moved offices, I passed a couple of scoots every day during my lunch walk.

I spotted a gal outside one day that had a buddy 50 she never used. I asked her about it, she said "you know, I haven't started it in 2 years..."

We kickstarted it, after a trillion tries. It wasn't happy, but it turned over!

PGO/Genuine makes decent stuff!

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:06 am

Caveat: They're better on some bigger maxi-scoots. But for something like a Buddy or Rattler, the scoot can come off the side stand very easily. It happens more often when the scooter is running, but even when not, a stiff wind can knock it off.

dkw12002 · Post by **dkw12002** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:10 am

I put 25 miles on the Roughhouse this afternoon. It's been so long since I've had a bike with a carb, I forgot you have to open the throttle a little sometimes to get it going. I am happy with the acceleration. That 8-10 mph higher speed vs. a 4 stroke 50cc makes a huge difference in a little scooter...45-50 mph instead of 35mph allows me to stay in traffic more rather than off on the shoulder so people can pass. The scooter is actually smoother than I thought it would be...both the engine and the tires. I am going to have a hard time following break-in instructions as per the owner's manual. In fact I already haven't, but I can tell the little scooter likes me already. Not over half throttle. Ya, right. I been doing hard break-ins for years and nary a problem. I will make sure the bike is thoroughly warmed up before I wring it out though. Question: do your side stands retract by themselves? In other words if you upright the scooter a little, does the side stand spring up? Mine doesn't and I like it that way. That side stand seems just fine for my garage and staging area. I mastered the center stand as well, so it was a good day. The dealer threw in a bottle of Motul synthetic scooter oil, so I am set for several hundred miles. I ordered a couple of spark plugs. My owners manual says Black Cat and the models referred to inside do not say R50, but I assume everything it says about the 2 stroke Black Cat will be the same...air filter, spark plug numbers, gear oil (140 wt.)...mine has embossed on the transmission to use 110 cm^3, so the manual says 90 cm^3 for the Black Cat, but I'll go with the 110 cm^3. That manual is a riot with the wording. Can you believe they didn't consult a native English speaker before they printed thousands of manuals? Actually it's all understandable and that's the important thing. I'm going to like the Roughhouse.

dkw12002 · Post by **dkw12002** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:21 am

While my side stand seems safe, the dealer said the same thing about not trusting the side stand so I think I will just use it at home and in my garage but the center stand when I'm out. It seems almost impossible that my bike could blow over or rock off that side stand, but since I have been warned twice now, I think I'll take the advice. Those after-market side stands that spring up can be a problem for sure, which is why I never added one to my Vespa. Worse yet, some kid could have the scooter fall on him if he was messing with it.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:14 am

I use the side stand in exactly two circumstances:
1) I've found myself with an armload or handful that prevents me from using both hands to put the scooter on the center stand, so I kick the side stand and use that just long enough for me to free up my hands and park it properly.
2) I have to park the scooter on dirt (e.g. at a state park campground) that the center stand may or may not sink into, and I figure that having the side stand out might help hold it upright if it sinks that far.

This is the story about how using the side stand almost ruined my first big road trip.

Also: never, ever use the side stand while the engine is running, or start the engine while it's on the side stand. If the engine revs enough to engage the clutch (which can happen even if you aren't touching the throttle, especially if the idle is on the high side), the rear wheel will turn, the bike will move, and the stand will fold. Kerrattle!

OldGuy · Post by **OldGuy** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:35 am

dkw, congrats on your Roughhouse. They really are fun.

Regarding the gearcase oil, 110cc is total capacity, but it doesn't all drain out during a change. So 90cc is what you add. A little confusing. (The Black Cat manual is the right one, and it makes for some entertaining reading!) You can find a shop manual in the MB FAQs and Guides area of this forum, and that may help a bit. But really, not much maintenance to do.

My side stand barely worked originally, was not reliable like those on most motorcycles. Was always on the verge of pivoting up. I didn't trust it at all. I made a small mod, grinding a bit of metal/weld so the stand pivots forward more, and places the base more squarely on the ground. Now I have no fears leaving mine on the side stand while parked at work or the store; it is very stable. But I am very careful about starting or running the engine, as TVB said. Too easy to twist the throttle and have the scoot try to get away!

Enjoy the new ride!