Modern Buddy

I am tired of being at work and all the motorcycle drivers telling me my scooter is a death trap with training wheels. They say their motorcycles are safer because they are faster, better acceleration, can get away from cars and have bigger wheels. I say that is idiotic, especially going faster is probably going to lead to a death more easily, but apparently that doesn't make sense to them. What do you guys think? I know both are extremely dangerous, but IMO I feel scooters are generally safer than motorcycles. I haven't been able to find much statistically on the topic. Except this but it didn't look to legit:

http://news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/dx ... cycles.htm

It's not the ride, it's the rider. The former is only a tool. It's when the latter is also a tool that things go wrong.

As to that safety study, here's what I've learned after years of careful observation:

Universal Law #1 - Probability:
The probability of any one thing happening at any one point in time and in any single point of space is exactly 50/50. Put simply: either it happens or it doesn't happen.

Universal Law #2 - Statistics:
If it didn't happen to you, it doesn't count.

That's all the math you need to know; anything more is mere academic self-pleasuring.

srbbnd wrote:I am tired of being at work and all the motorcycle drivers telling me my scooter is a death trap with training wheels. They say their motorcycles are safer because they are faster, better acceleration, can get away from cars and have bigger wheels. I say that is idiotic, especially going faster is probably going to lead to a death more easily, but apparently that doesn't make sense to them. What do you guys think? I know both are extremely dangerous, but IMO I feel scooters are generally safer than motorcycles. I haven't been able to find much statistically on the topic. Except this but it didn't look to legit:

http://news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/dx ... cycles.htm

Your arguments don't make sense to them because they have made up their minds already and reason and logic doesn't work with such people. Ignore them is my advice or better yet, ask them to provide some cold, hard facts to support their position.

Bill in Seattle
'09 150 Blackjack
'12 170i Italia

What Charlie said.

Now, my seat-of-pants opinion. Been riding/racing for 29 years, blah, blah, blah. Point is, I can handle my business on the road, any road. Have owned 7 liter-class sportbikes.

To me, it FEELS more dangerous on a scooter. Seems less visible. Also, with the very low power/acceleration, (comparatively) very poor brakes, (comparatively) very poor chassis/suspension, 10-inch wheels (!), and just overall (comparatively) very cheap componentry/construction...

...to quote Steve Earle/Johnny Cash...

...it can get you into trouble but it can't get you out.

There are worlds of difference between a world-class sportbike (for example) and a middle-of-the-road scooter. The shock (Penske) on my CBR1000F would be a good even-up trade for a lightly-used Buddy. The fork on the Triumph (Ohlins) has a replacement cost in excess of a factory-new Buddy. Point is, (Lee Parks) "The best you know is the best you have ridden". Scooters are fun and practical, but when you really need to pull a rabbit out of the hat to avoid getting mangled, don't expect miracles from a twist-grip scooter.

That's all I'm saying.

With one hand they give, with the other they take away. For example, bigger engines give you more power to get out of dangerous situations, but also give you more encouragement and opportunity to get into dangerous situations. Larger wheels give you more stability, but give you less maneuverability. A CVT scooter gives you less control over the gearing (e.g. to downshift to get better torque), but gives you less opportunity to fsck it up (e.g. downshifting when you want to upshift).

Being a rider of both scooters and motorcycles I have to agree somewhat with Benzo. Apologies to all of the scooter only riders. The bigger bikes with the bigger wheels are more stable, a lot more stable. Potholes that would swallow my 10 inch Buddy tire and knock me off balance will be just a little bump on my VStrom. The VStrom suspension has 5.9 inches of travel, that's over half the diameter of the Buddy wheel. This allows the motorcycle to drink up bumps that would cause the scooter to buck real hard. I can also negotiate curves faster on the motorcycle because of a greater lean angle. However, the Buddy is FAR MORE maneuverable in tight spaces.

While it is true that more power can get you out of a bad situation it can also get you into trouble just as fast!

At the end of the day, safety mostly comes down to intelligent riding. Your priorities change somewhat between motorcycle and scooter. A scooters progress can be disrupted by obstacles that a motorcycle can simply roll over. Alternatively, I've seen lots of motorcycle riders have trouble with tight curves that scooters just zip through. Each bike has strengths and weaknesses.

As for a shock absorber or a fork on a motorcycle costing as much as a used or new Buddy? Those things make the bike more capable but not necessarily safer. In my experience people who add that level of equipment to their bike do so in order to go stupid fast. They are trading the safety of better equipment for the extreme danger of high speed.

As with helmet "discussions" it is an argument that I choose not to participate in. I am not going to change anyone's opinion on the topic.

whichever one you crash on is more dangerous. if you never crash neither is dangerous. you can ride in dangerous situations, putting yourself in them. but it doesn't make the bike itself, scooter or mc, more dangerous

which is more deadly, a 9mm pistol with an 18 round clip or a high powered semi automatic rifle with a 200 round clip? it only takes one shot to the head to find out both are just as deadly

same with motorbikes. don't crash and try not to do anything stupid and scooter or motorcycle can be equally safe

I ride both for various reasons.

Personally I think there are times each are more dangerous.

In town, everyone 'must pass the scooter!' even though I am usually ahead by a good margin. This sort of 1 upmanship is definitely a fault in our civilization overall.

On the highway people have less time to react and more speed, so it's a lot more instant. At 65-70 I have less time than at 25mph on an urban road.

I do have to say the quality of the 'baseline' brakes/shocks on my honda CTX do blow away the abilities of all my other scoots. However, in an emergency you'll probably find that the absolute shortest braking distance that you think you have is @ half of what you think. You'll just need new pants!

Ride safe and be ever vigilant.

gr8dog wrote:
As for a shock absorber or a fork on a motorcycle costing as much as a used or new Buddy? Those things make the bike more capable but not necessarily safer. In my experience people who add that level of equipment to their bike do so in order to go stupid fast. They are trading the safety of better equipment for the extreme danger of high speed.

Well said. I couldn't agree more.

Bill in Seattle
'09 150 Blackjack
'12 170i Italia

Other people :p

If you live in Queensland, Australia, scooters are statistically much safer.

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/53964/ ... cles-study

But then you might get punched out by a kangaroo.

The safest mount is the one on which you are most proficient, provided that that mount is suitable for the road conditions.
Don't buy a Honda Grom if you need to commute on a two lane Highway with a 65mph speed limit. I wouldn't buy a Victory for a surface street commute with 40mph speed limit and a lot of traffic lights.

it's not the type of machine...it's the operator!

wheelbender6 wrote:The safest mount is the one on which you are most proficient, provided that that mount is suitable for the road conditions.
Don't buy a Honda Grom if you need to commute on a two lane Highway with a 65mph speed limit. I wouldn't buy a Victory for a surface street commute with 40mph speed limit and a lot of traffic lights.

I think it's about time that we change the subject line to "Which is Better for You, Apples or Oranges". Personally, I eat both but I think oranges are better. For me anyway.

Bill in Seattle
'09 150 Blackjack
'12 170i Italia

Allow me:

Why red is red

The short answer is: both and neither.

It's a pointless argument, but even if you were intent on sincerely trying to figure it out one way or another, it would prove almost impossible. If you're looking for some good, objective evidence as to which is safer, you won't find it. The statistics used in the US are generally based on police reports and/or insurance claims.

States have different ways of categorizing two-wheeled vehicles, so there's no consistency as to what is reported as a "scooter" or a "motorcycle." If you're interested in small scooters, you could go by displacement, but I'd wager that those stats are also skewed because displacement is not always reported. Additionally, many scooterists are not insured (whether legally or not) or do not file claims.

So what you're left with is anecdotal reports, various platitudes and appeals to common sense. These are all as likely to be off the mark as on it, really.

I did once believe that scooters were much safer, but I was deluding myself. Now, I think it's pretty much a draw. That's purely my opinion, though. However, there are a lot of myths and misconceptions fueling the various amounts of poppycock on both sides of this argument.

My favorite is that you need power and speed to accelerate out of trouble. Baloney. If you're riding on a street or highway with a speed limit not beyond the capabilities of your machine, this will do you no good. Far more people accelerate into trouble than out of it. This is factual: excessive speed is one of the top common factors in fatal crashes. Not sure where "not fast enough" falls on the list, but I bet it's way, way down there.

However, are you less likely to get in a crash or collision because your scooter is slower? No.

Do motorcycle have better brakes and suspensions? Sure. but they also have a buttload more mass and weight and their tall wheels make them much more difficult to maneuver in tight spaces and at slower speeds.

Will either protect you more than the other if you get t-boned by an Escalade? Nope.

What do these guys ride and what do they wear when riding? Because (as a group) I'm sure we could come up with dozens of reasons they're hypocrites for even trying to make this claim.

ericalm wrote:If you're looking for some good, objective evidence as to which is safer, you won't find it. The statistics used in the US are generally based on police reports and/or insurance claims.

Eric - you're quite correct. the NHTSA numbers don't break down PTW types.

https://rideapart.com/articles/what-the ... cle-safety

People tell me this alllll the time, especially because I ride in the city (Boston). I actually feel like as though city driving is much safer; traffic is slow, people can react quicker after hearing a horn.... Many people say "city's a deathtrap."

I also get a lot of people asking me how fast it goes. I tell them it can go around 45mph, but after I see their excitement, I also tell them that you'd be an idiot going that fast in a city.

There are things that make scooters more dangerous. From what I have learned through my riding;
1. We can't stop short. If you do, you are likely to spin out
2. People don't care about you and are more willing to try and run you off the road because they feel entitled to my spot in the lane.
3. We get cut off so much more easily by people. Including pedestrians who see us but think we are just a bike that they can outrun. PLEASE DON'T JET IN FRONT OF ME!

There are also some things that make us safer;
1. When we wipe out, we are likely not going as fast as a motorcycle.
2. When someone does veer into my lane, its much easier for me to move (while honking my horn to let them know that I am in this lane!) over or go into a bike lane.
3. When you fall, if the bike lands on you, it will do less damage. It's also easier to jump off if need be (I've never needed to jump off, nor do I have the ninja skills to do that before an impending accident. But some do)

There are many other factors, but I think that it depends on the purpose and the way you are riding.

gr8dog wrote:Being a rider of both scooters and motorcycles I have to agree somewhat with Benzo. Apologies to all of the scooter only riders. The bigger bikes with the bigger wheels are more stable, a lot more stable. Potholes that would swallow my 10 inch Buddy tire and knock me off balance will be just a little bump on my VStrom. The VStrom suspension has 5.9 inches of travel, that's over half the diameter of the Buddy wheel. This allows the motorcycle to drink up bumps that would cause the scooter to buck real hard. I can also negotiate curves faster on the motorcycle because of a greater lean angle. However, the Buddy is FAR MORE maneuverable in tight spaces.

Great points!

skully93 wrote: In town, everyone 'must pass the scooter!' even though I am usually ahead by a good margin. This sort of 1 upmanship is definitely a fault in our civilization overall.

Haven't you heard? If you get passed by a scooter and don't IMMEDIATELY floor it to get back in front, your testicles with wither away and die. Or, in the case that you are already lacking in the testicular area, they will grow immensely when you overtake that scooter.

jrstone wrote:

skully93 wrote: In town, everyone 'must pass the scooter!' even though I am usually ahead by a good margin. This sort of 1 upmanship is definitely a fault in our civilization overall.

Haven't you heard? If you get passed by a scooter and don't IMMEDIATELY floor it to get back in front, your testicles with wither away and die. Or, in the case that you are already lacking in the testicular area, they will grow immensely when you overtake that scooter.

Agreed, of course once your testicles are the size of a elephant's, you have to slam on your breaks right before a sharp turn after passing a scooter, causing the scooterists with gnome balls to crash into your car. Common sense really, who wants gnome balls. Not me.

I ride both, and both are more dangerous than playing video games.

Elder Scoot wrote:

ericalm wrote:If you're looking for some good, objective evidence as to which is safer, you won't find it. The statistics used in the US are generally based on police reports and/or insurance claims.

Eric - you're quite correct.

It happens occasionally.

I've been thinking about this topic a lot because it comes up often in forums and conversations. I understand the "which is safer?" question coming from people interested in riding or buying their first PTW. I understand it coming from friends or people I meet who don't ride.

But it's the wrong question and anyone who rides should know that. The question itself is based on a bunch of assumptions, stereotypes and misconceptions. And if the person who adamantly wants to argue one side of the question isn't doing everything within their power to reduce their risk and increase their own safety when riding, then what's the point?

Even the word "safer" is loaded and vague. Does that mean less likely to crash? Less likely to have a serious crash, injury or fatality?

Each rider, no matter what they ride, falls somewhere along a broad spectrum of risk that accounts for how they ride, where and when they ride, their experience and training, how well their machine is maintained, what kind of gear they choose to wear, etc. The vehicle — its nature, size and capabilities — does figure into this in some way, but it's not the primary determinant of what's "safer."

I would have to disagree. In my opinion I think it is a very valid argument for numerous reasons that can’t all be listed in a few paragraphs. I think the main problem is a lack of statistical information which would be very beneficial for motorcyclists, scooterists and mopedists. Insurance rates, property tax, licensing, federal benefits for gas savvy drivers like myself are all affected since my scooter is considered the same as a motorcycle in the state I live. However, subtract 1 cc from a 50cc and all of sudden you don’t have a “motorcycle”. The subject safety is the main factor in trying to categorize a motorcycle/scooter/moped and should be open to debate.

Should a 14 year old kid be able to drive a scooter with no experience, because people have an image of scooters being safer? Or should people who have watched Roman Holiday one too many times and are nostalgic to drive a Vespa scooter and think there are no safety issues take to the city streets with no experience just because they are not considered motorcycles. I am not saying one is safer than the other, but I do think less people die on scooters than comparably to motorcycles. I have no evidence to support this. This is why there needs to be evidence to support possible bogus claims.

I would like to see states or even the feds categorize mopeds, scooters and motorcycles in a logical manor. There are major differences between motorcycles and scooters in my opinion which does affect safety. I would hope in this day and age people would be able to have a logical, somewhat behaved argument without the fear of offending people especially when it doesn’t have to deal with religion or politics. But, as the creator of this thread I am probably more inclined to think that this is a valid question.

srbbnd wrote:I would have to disagree. In my opinion I think it is a very valid argument for numerous reasons that can’t all be listed in a few paragraphs. I think the main problem is a lack of statistical information which would be very beneficial for motorcyclists, scooterists and mopedists. Insurance rates, property tax, licensing, federal benefits for gas savvy drivers like myself are all affected since my scooter is considered the same as a motorcycle in the state I live. However, subtract 1 cc from a 50cc and all of sudden you don’t have a “motorcycle”. The subject safety is the main factor in trying to categorize a motorcycle/scooter/moped and should be open to debate.

Should a 14 year old kid be able to drive a scooter with no experience, because people have an image of scooters being safer? Or should people who have watched Roman Holiday one too many times and are nostalgic to drive a Vespa scooter and think there are no safety issues take to the city streets with no experience just because they are not considered motorcycles. I am not saying one is safer than the other, but I do think less people die on scooters than comparably to motorcycles. I have no evidence to support this. This is why there needs to be evidence to support possible bogus claims.

I would like to see states or even the feds categorize mopeds, scooters and motorcycles in a logical manor. There are major differences between motorcycles and scooters in my opinion which does affect safety. I would hope in this day and age people would be able to have a logical, somewhat behaved argument without the fear of offending people especially when it doesn’t have to deal with religion or politics. But, as the creator of this thread I am probably more inclined to think that this is a valid question.

In my state even 49cc scooters are classified as motorcycles. It's written out as such:
"The Ohio Revised Code defines a moped, or motorized bicycle, as any vehicle with two tandem wheels or one front and two rear wheels which is capable of being pedaled. The tires shall have an inflated width size of 1.75 inches (4.45 centimeters) minimum and shall have an overall inflated diameter of 19 inches (48.26 centimeters) minimum when mounted to the rim or wheel. The moped should be equipped with a helper motor too. The helper motor may not:
◾have a piston displacement of more than 50 cubic centimeters;
◾produce more than one brake horsepower; and
◾propel the vehicle at a maximum speed greater than 20 mph on a level surface.


If a vehicle exceeds any one of these criteria, it is legally a motorcycle. "

So no scooters I know of can be classified as a moped.

At first that annoyed the heck out of me. After taking the MSF course I now get it and why it is classified as such.

I thought that Aussie study was quite interesting. I'd be interested to hear the numbers of other countries that have a larger scooter population.

Cars have killed more people every year than scooters or motorcycles have killed over 100 years. So got to say that neither scooters nor motorcycles are more dangerous.

greatgandpop

I think it is time for this thread to address a more serious question

The Professor.

Well played TVB!

Scooters may be safer because they do not tempt you to do certain hazardous things like knee dragging in corners and wheelies in the fast lane on the freeway.

charlie55 wrote:It's not the ride, it's the rider.

This is basically all that needs to be said on this subject.

wheelbender6 wrote:Scooters may be safer because they do not tempt you to do certain hazardous things like knee dragging in corners and wheelies in the fast lane on the freeway.

Well...

BuddyRaton wrote:

wheelbender6 wrote:Scooters may be safer because they do not tempt you to do certain hazardous things like knee dragging in corners and wheelies in the fast lane on the freeway.

Well...

That's not the fast lane on the freeway. Geez....

Fast lane of the bicycle path?

BuddyRaton wrote:Fast lane of the bicycle path?

Exclusive domain of the stretchy pants crowd around here. The don't like my '97 Univega in their lane, so hooning about on one of the 2T shifties would seriously be frowned upon.

Maybe I should clamp the Monoprice bullet cam to the Ciao and buzz on down there, I can at least pedal while hooning...

I honestly feel that neither are dangerous. By themselves neither are capable of doing anything now throw people into the mix an I'll bet the statistics are very similar.
Just an opinion.

Ginger.

wheelbender6 wrote:Scooters may be safer because they do not tempt you to do certain hazardous things like knee dragging in corners and wheelies in the fast lane on the freeway.

you should've seen the wheelies one of the guys was doing in the MSF course I took (scooters only)