Modern Buddy

Posted: **Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:16 pm**

I've been reading a lot of the WHO'S CRASHED posts and a lot of the other injury related ones, and also gear posts about gloves and such and I'm wondering with all the talk of shredded palms and fingers and out stretched hands to break a fall, do people have a basic understanding of how to fall? Now please- I'm not trying trying to come across as, "I know how to fall and you don't" but rather to understand if the way I've been taught to fall is indeed correct on a scooter.

4 years high school football, 10 years martial arts, and 8 years military with over 100 parachute jumps have taught me to tuck and roll on a fall. NEVER stretch out your hands or arms or you'll break 'em off! I've never crashed on a scoot or on an MC but I'm pretty sure if I'm about to, my training will kick in and I'll instinctively jump, tuck, and roll. I wear a ff helmet and a knox armored jacket- I plan to let the shoulder pads do what they're intended to do. Is this the incorrect way to fall? I'm not sure I could do it any other way at this point. I've never taken the MSF course- do they teach you how to fall? Just curious and hoping that I don't ever find out if my way is the right way.....

-SS

Posted: **Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:22 pm**

Now we have to jump out of a plane while riding the Buddy?

What will they think of next?

Posted: **Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:24 pm**

I would tuck and roll... plenty of skateboarding and snowboarding accidents have taught me that, also lacross checking...

Posted: **Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:26 pm**

David Hough, ("Proficient Motorcycling") insists that if you're falling, you're crashing, and you should be avoiding the crash, not "falling properly."

He's mostly right, I'm sick of people telling me "I dropped it on purpose," because no one drops a scooter on purpose.

I'm sure there's something to be said for knowing how to fall properly, but knowing how to avoid falling is probably a more important skill. If you look at EP scoot's figures (or the Hurt Report), proper rider education clearly reduces your odds of an accident, and most crashes are rider error and could have been avoided if the rider had handled the situation properly.

Still, it's always worth thinking about.

I think in a motorcycle crash, your main goal is to protect your head/arms/legs, and try to slide rather than roll, so your reaction could be wrong. I'm looking forward to seeing what other people say about this. It's a good day for new topics here, ha.

Bb.

Posted: **Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:26 pm**

I'll tell you what, putting on a football helmet and jumping around on the grass in your yard doing some shoulder rolls might just make the difference when it's time to kiss asphalt.... Funny thing is as kids we used to do that down hills without the helmet! And it was fun! I can't remember a single summer we didn't spend diving onto the lawn and rolling down hills. Do kids play outside anymore or do they only play with something if it plugs in?

-SS

Posted: **Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:31 pm**

On all the races I have seen, I always see the rider trying to slide and control the slide with their arm, rather than roll. I would think they know what they are doing. All the MC gear is made to protect you on a first impact and consequent slide.

IMO a key element is that skydiving, martial arts, etc, you are mostly anticipating the roll/impact, where on a MC/scooter accident you don't, it just happens. If you see it coming with so much advance notice you could prepare to "fall right", you should have enough time to avoid the crash alltogether.

Posted: **Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:32 pm**

Good point Illnoise. I'm thinking of jumping as the last resort- control and not crashing is the goal! I'm thinking someone cuts me off, stops in front of me when they do see me, and there's no way to go but down, do I jump and roll and risk getting run over? Do I ride it out and do an endo over the hood, or hit the passenger door? And there's not much time to think- just react. That's why I'm hoping I do the right thing if the time comes. Not gonna let it bother me- just be aware and attentive and control what's in your realm of influence. The rest is a crap shoot.....

Posted: **Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:38 pm**

I'm sure there's some benefit in knowing how to fall. But as illnoise indicated, there's sort of a hierarchy of counterintuitive things riders need to keep in mind when going down. First, try to avoid the crash. Second, keep trying to avoid the crash. Third, by now you've already crashed or have quickly realized you're not going to avoid it. Fourth, hit the kill switch—now!

I would think that, even if there were a recommended and well-researched "proper" way to take a fall on a scooter, it wouldn't be practiced enough to become second nature and riders wouldn't have the time to really do it that way.

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:09 am**

Ok, I'll admit that I fell the other day. I hit the curb somehow....don't even remember what boneheaded thing I was doing after I finished my 50th practice weave run.

My point: Piglet fell and I fell. And despite being a 2nd degree blackbelt who really knows how to fall during a fight, I still reached out with my hands for the pavement.

I would have been better off if my DH had taken a swing at me. Not sure the martial arts training is very helpful, at least for me. Too bad I can't practice falling off my scoot onto one of those judo mats!

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:09 am**

ericalm wrote: I would think that, even if there were a recommended and well-researched "proper" way to take a fall on a scooter, it wouldn't be practiced enough to become second nature and riders wouldn't have the time to really do it that way.

I agree; I raced liter bikes for a while and I would like to believe that I know how to fall, but when I crashed on the street I still believe that I know how to fall, but when I crashed my gsxr 1100 I still needed to have surgery on my shoulder despite my training and natural ability.

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:16 am**

If you're going 40 mph and all the sudden your going down.

10 years of martial arts, 4 years of high school football, and 8 years of military experience are the last things going through your mind.

It's "OMG, WTF" and then you do whatever you can to stop yourself. Putting hands out, feet out, landing on an arm, whatever.

I've been riding bikes for almost 10 years and with the exception of the military have the same experiences you have and then some. But when my bike came out from under me at 35mph that did me no good.

There wasn't any point in that split second where I thought "maybe a monkey roll would help me."

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:13 am**

illnoise wrote: I'm sure there's something to be said for knowing how to fall properly, but knowing how to avoid falling is probably a more important skill. If you look at EP scoot's figures (or the Hurt Report), proper rider education clearly reduces your odds of an accident, and most crashes are rider error and could have been avoided if the rider had handled the situation properly.

In other words, stop putting it off and take the gosh darned MSF! Amen.

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:41 am**

Learning the right way to fall is probably the same as learning anything. Go out there and practice, practice, practice!

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:57 pm**

this is interesting.
After my fall on Tuesday my friend's parents told me that they would have jumped for the grass. I don't remember thinking about jumping--i think i was on the ground before i realized that i actually had fallen. But i guess leaping for the grass, next to the row of trees was a safer bet--and my friend's parents must be a type of new england ninja, or took lessons from John McLain

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:16 pm**

kmetta wrote:this is interesting.
After my fall on Tuesday my friend's parents told me that they would have jumped for the grass. I don't remember thinking about jumping--i think i was on the ground before i realized that i actually had fallen. But i guess leaping for the grass, next to the row of trees was a safer bet--and my friend's parents must be a type of new england ninja, or took lessons from John McLain

Hindsight - Learning from previous experience. Good.

Monday Morning Quarterback - Telling someone else what should have been done or what you would have done in the same situation. Quite often based on nothing but opinion and little or no real world experience with the discussed situation. Pretty much useless.

Dennis

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:28 pm**

Unless of course, you have previously quarterbacked, which would thus make your opinion somewhat valid...but still null since all falls are not created equal.

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:32 pm**

Eazy wrote: I've been riding bikes for almost 10 years and with the exception of the military have the same experiences you have and then some. But when my bike came out from under me at 35mph that did me no good.

There wasn't any point in that split second where I thought "maybe a monkey roll would help me."

I think I just peed myself a little.

illnoise wrote:David Hough, ("Proficient Motorcycling") insists that if you're falling, you're crashing, and you should be avoiding the crash, not "falling properly."

He's mostly right, I'm sick of people telling me "I dropped it on purpose," because no one drops a scooter on purpose.

I'm sure there's something to be said for knowing how to fall properly, but knowing how to avoid falling is probably a more important skill. If you look at EP scoot's figures (or the Hurt Report), proper rider education clearly reduces your odds of an accident, and most crashes are rider error and could have been avoided if the rider had handled the situation properly.

I think this sums it up pretty well.

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:55 pm**

when doing some studying for the effective bicyclist exam i took a class on how to fall. Pretty funny we would get up in our pedals and everything riding in a gymnasium, we'd pedal up to a foam mat and fall in to it

i have to agree with both points of view on here by stating my 2cents.

you do have to know how to fall to some extent
if you are driving trying to get out of the crash keep your hands on the bars and you feet on the floor, then if you do fall you are not as likely to break something. so don't bail off the thing like your the fall guy or something but you tendancy might be to break your fall with your hands or feet and it is a good way to break something.

if you are thrown from the bike which is possible, try not to let stuff like arm and legs stick out too much either. but probably your mind wil be occupied by thoughts like AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:31 pm**

I think Douglas Adams may have said it best:

The trick to falling (flying) is to throw yourself at the ground and miss. The first part is easy. All it requires is simply the ability to throw yourself forward with all your weight, and the willingness not to mind that it's going to hurt.

That is, it's going to hurt if you fail to miss the ground. Most people fail to miss the ground, and if they are really trying properly, the likelihood is that they will fail to miss it fairly hard.

Clearly, it is the second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.

One problem is that you have to miss the ground accidentally. It's no good deliberately intending to miss the ground because you won't. You have to have your attention suddenly distracted by something else when you're halfway there, so that you are no longer thinking about falling, or about the ground, or about how much it's going to hurt if you fail to miss it.

It is notoriously difficult to prize your attention away from these three things during the split second you have at your disposal. Hence most people's failure, and their eventual disillusionment with this exhilarating and spectacular sport.

If, however, you are lucky enough to have your attention momentarily distracted at the crucial moment by, say, a gorgeous pair of legs (tentacles, pseudopodia, according to phyllum and/or personal inclination) or a bomb going off in your vicinty, or by suddenly spotting an extremely rare species of beetle crawling along a nearby twig, then in your astonishment you will miss the ground completely and remain bobbing just a few inches above it in what might seem to be a slightly foolish manner.

This is a moment for superb and delicate concentration. Bob and float, float and bob. Ignore all consideration of your own weight simply let yourself waft higher. Do not listen to what anybody says to you at this point because they are unlikely to say anything helpful. They are most likely to say something along the lines of "Good God, you can't possibly be flying!" It is vitally important not to believe them or they will suddenly be right. "

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:01 pm**

I think EP_scoot's point about what motorcycle racers do is very valid. The key differentiator between a scooter wreck and a martial arts fight fall is going to be speed and momentum. I learned how to fall from a gymnastics instructor, and it's served me well skateboarding, mountainboarding, and even bicycling. We learned to put our hands out, but only as a guide for the rest of our body to initiate that shoulder tuck and roll - not to actually try to catch ourselves. But the question is whether or not that's helpful when laying a motorcycle down. If you simply fall over and drop the bike at a light, kicking yourself over into a shoulder roll will probably help a lot. But if you're doing 45 mph 'round a curve and hit gravel, you're going down and fast. You're going to slide and there's not going to be much you can really do about it. Likewise, you're coming off the bike in the wrong direction to actually tuck and roll in any helpful way. Also, at that kind of speed, if you start rolling, it seems to me like you'd be more likely to snag a limb and really injure yourself that much more than if you simply slid on your armor and tried to get your feet out in front of you.

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:51 pm**

schlagle wrote:I think Douglas Adams may have said it best...

lol

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:53 pm**

I have to agree with Eazy. When I fell, had no time to think about the fact that I was ging to fall, I was just suddenly on the ground. I'm sure there are times when you see the incident coming. In a couple of car accidents I was in, I had time to think "My dad is going to kill me" before I actually rear-end someone back in 1978. Per hap if I had been on a scooter then, I might have thought about how and where to slide rather than "Oh crap, this is going to hurt."

Howard

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:19 pm**

sunshinen wrote:
schlagle wrote:I think Douglas Adams may have said it best...
lol

Does this mean we need to start carrying towels?

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:21 pm**

hehe, bunny, you're a geek after my own heart!

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:36 pm**

I have no training in falling whatsoever and I have had two falls, both almost exactly the same but with different causes and different results.

First, I was swerving to avoid a cat that ran in front of my tire one night... I swerved to the left hard and when I felt unstable I put my left leg out (I often put my legs out when cornering sharply for balance)... BAD IDEA! My foot was lodged between the center stand and the ground and rolling forward in a horrible crunching motion. I kinda dove off, hands first, sliding briefly then rolling 4 or 5 times.

Second, I was turning on a deep spot of sand. Fell to the left, putting my hands down first, then sliding with the scooter on top of my legs. As far as pain and soreness goes, the first one takes the cake (not even counting the toe dislocation). Sliding, as long as you have gear on, is MUCH less painful than rolling IMO! I guess you can't really make yourself slide... at least not all the time, but I'd rather slide than roll if I could control it.

After the first fall I was sore all over for a week or two and the second, not at all. Just a small bruise on my palm from the impact. I know this isn't a gear thread, but A LOT CAN BE SAID FOR RIDING WITH GLOVES!!!

Posted: **Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:16 am**

i have heard that if you have a choice sliding is best because rolling may get you caught up in something or bounced. i've not done either, i've just hit the ground.

just for fun...for my analogy i offer the whitewater spill, on your back legs out front to use like a pin ball bouncing off of bumpers (visualize pin ball machine bumpers as rocks not car bumpers as car bumpers) water is a lot more fun than pavement.

Posted: **Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:21 am**

A lot of new riders go for the Fred Flintstone stop when they get into trouble—that leg pops straight out! This is easier to train yourself not to do, as the situations in which you're tempted pop up more frequently than a fall.

I totally did this my first time out ever, taking a turn the wrong way. Learned a lesson about sticking my foot out. It was a while longer before I learned how to properly turn.

Posted: **Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:41 am**

ericalm wrote:A lot of new riders go for the Fred Flintstone stop when they get into trouble

Which is awesome, because a lot of new riders wear flip-flops. : )

Bb.

Posted: **Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:20 am**

i hate to reference the brc for the umpteenth time...however since it was the first time riding i think i will credit them for teaching me to keep my feet put while making any kind of maneuver. Something that has taken some practice and still not sure i'd do it in pinch.

Posted: **Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:31 am**

i have wondered the same thing myself...how to go down with the least amount of injury.

i dont think its a silly thing to ask, either.

you can try to avoid a crash at all costs (OBVIOUSLY), but if something happens you want to be prepared.

its just like preparing for a fire...no one wants to have a fire, but they have drills in schools to prepare you just in case.

Posted: **Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:40 am**

It's "OMG, WTF" and then you do whatever you can to stop yourself. Putting hands out, feet out, landing on an arm, whatever.

The only time I've gone down it was like this. One moment I'm up and the next I was rolling across the cement. I have no idea what happened in between but I remember the Buddy shooting out from under me like it was shot out of a cannon (I hit a patch of sand and gravel)! Some things just happen too fast to react too.

It's when you're cognizant of what's happening that your abilities can help you. I found myself rolling along the concrete and ended up doing the natural, and completely wrong, thing--I put my hand out to stop my roll. Ended up breaking my wrist (as I found out today at the doctor's office).

I think your training to "tuck and roll" is correct as it allows your body to protect itself in most cases. It's not that you're likely to make a conscious decision during the crash/drop to do so, but it is possible that the training you've had will kick in automatically when you find yourself in that position. That's a good thing, IMHO.

Now if you go into a slide and try to change it to a roll, you could be in trouble. Different needs for different problems and all that!

Posted: **Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:05 am**

sailortot wrote:its just like preparing for a fire...no one wants to have a fire, but they have drills in schools to prepare you just in case.

The "preparation" you can do for a crash includes practicing hard stops, swerving, etc., wearing gear, and that sort of thing. Unlike in a fire, when you crash, you're not completely in control of your body. It happens very fast. A lot of people who crash later say they don't even fully remember it—"Next thing I knew, I was on the ground."

I'm not necessarily busting on the idea of a "proper fall." I just think that learning such a thing would take a lot of time and effort given the low odds of a rider actually being able to make use of that skill during a crash. The energy put into it is better used in learning and practicing crash avoidance techniques. No, not all crashed are avoidable. But a lot of the ones that do occur are, or could have been, if the rider had been more experienced or prepared. What do we need to do to lower that statistic?

Posted: **Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:37 am**

walt disney had the best idea and it gets reinforced whenever you go to any amusement park. the disembodied voice is always there to remind you:

'Keep your arms and legs inside the ride at all times.'

Modern Buddy

Do people know how to fall?

Do people know how to fall?

fall properly