Modern Buddy

Today I reserved a spot for myself for the MSF Basic Rider course.
I'm allowed to bring my scooter as long as it's under 250cc and has full insurance on it. I'm of two minds regarding this though.

On the one hand, I'd be learning the skills on the machine I'd be using. If I'm going to develop good habits on this machine, using it in the course would be a very good start.

On the other hand, I don't know how at risk it's at from being hit by another student or being dropped by me. I rode the 50cc for almost 50miles, and as of today I've got 22.6 miles on the 125cc. Of course, I haven't taken sharp curves with it.

I have no intention of riding higher than 250cc. I have no intention of riding anything other than a scooter. And if by chance I change my mind years from now, I'd most likely take another course on the new bike.

But, I don't want it to get damaged before I get a chance to enjoy it, heh.

Any thoughts?
If given the chance, would YOU use your own scooter for the basic rider course?

I think it is best to use their 250cc bikes. It may be "Harder", but you will learn to shift gears in no time. Plus, if you lay the bike down, you wont feel bad since it isnt your bike and you dont need to pay for the damages. I think learning to ride a motorcycle is great even though you will be riding a scooter all the time. You never know if you may someday want to buy a nice yamaha or aprilia, and the lessons from the MSF will help you.

I took mine on a nighthawk 250, a cruiser/sports bike type of motorcycle, at first I was nervous, but after a certain excercise which made us constantly upshift and downshift, it became natural, you could "hear" the engine rpm's and just know when to shift.

When I first read the subject, I thought I knew my reply. My scooter, of course. But as I thought about it reading your post...... I wouldn't feel to bad about falling over on the MSF provided bikes, but I'd be crushed if I knocked mine down.

I think I'd still pick the scooter, though.

My original thought was that it would be neat to do so. Having taken it, I'd say No, not because of the other riders, but because the course asks you to extend your limits. Not by much, but more than I would have felt comfortable on my stuff. Also, I would have felt a false sense of security that would have gotten me into trouble; I knew that I did not know how the course provided bikes handled so I was much more aware of them.

anthony

I just think it feels funny when the instructor is looking for you to "shift into second after this cone", you cant. You get left out experience wise from these type of exercises because of the bike being automatic. But then again, if you dont drop your bike, and use it in class, you still gain alot of confidence and knowledge you'd never learn on your own on the open roads.

It never hurts to learn how to shift a motorcycle. That is something you will never forget and may need to know someday in the future.

However, in the 70's, while in the Navy, we had developed a safety program that the base adopted to ensure riders knew what they were doing when cruising on post. We used our own cycles and I personally feel that you should be trained and tested on the scooter or motorcycle you own and will be driving. There is a big difference driving around cones on a borrowed 250 cc cycle then it would be on your 1200cc Harley or 650cc Yamaha. However, it is also nice that you can take the course and test out before you even buy a scooter or motorcycle. Then you know if you want to continue to ride or not.

i used my scooter for the msf and am glad of it. besides learning the safety techniques on what i was going to be using, i didn't have to divide my attention between performing the instrucions while thinking about how to shift the mc.

i think your concern about someone crashing into you is a bit of a stretch. the instructors have people doing exercises one at a time. except for when people have completed a lesson and are lining back up for the next, you really aren't in close proximity to other riders. at least that's how it was in my class.

as for learning how to shift being an asset, in a car i can see it. who knows, you may be forced to drive someone to the hospital at some point and the only available vehicle is a stick. but somehow, for me, i don't see a scenario where having to know how to shift a mc would ever come into a critical life or death sort of situation.

but, to each his/her own.

I had a bad crash with a young girl in my class, I was in the middle of shifting a gear and after the rear end she gave me with her bike, my bike would not take off for a few seconds, then it would jump to 10mph real quick. Not sure what was wrong, but a belt/chain may have been damaged or slipping until it hit a certain rpm where it caught back on and actually worked properly.

The bike ran, but it was annoying when it wouldnt go when I wanted it to sometimes.

I really wouldnt worry about crashing into others, or them into you, the only real crashing you do is either your own fault, or you just go too slow in a exercise that you drop the bike in a lean.

Scullyfu, did you drop your scoot during the course? Had you ridden your scooter much prior to the course? Did you do anything special to prepare you or your scoot for it? Oh, and did you ride your scoot to the class?

Apetit has a point on pushing one's limits …this would probably be easier to do on someone else's bike, heh.
But as for being more aware of their bikes because of unfamiliarity, I feel pretty unfamiliar with my scoot as is, heh. However, this comment was in my mind while I went for my ride before it got dark. I pushed some of my limits on my curves. I'm wondering if maybe if I practice more then in a month I'll feel more comfortable for when the course starts…but hopefully not too many bad habits.

As for shifting, I don't have anything against learning it, in fact, reading the book, it looks kind of fun.
I just think that I want to feel comfortable braking on my[/] scooter instead of having to relearn how to brake because they had taught me to left side is clutch, right foot is rear brake, etc. I also want to develop familiarity with the weight and weight shifting of the machine I'll be riding, how much lean for what, how much braking distance for what, etc.
Ok, I think that last paragraph pretty much convinced me that I would rather use my own scooter for the course. But I'll probably have Richard follow me in his car as I travel into town for the course and home again.

Another question… do they cover speeds higher than say 30mph?
I find I'm comfortable with 30-40mph, but higher than 40 makes me nervous still.
I'm wondering if, after the course, I should higher someone to travel up and down this stretch of road with me until I get fairly comfortable with it, heheh.


Added:
Lol, but then jfrost2 had to go and mention getting into a crash during the course.

Actually to brake a motorcycle and make it stop, you use the clutch like a brake also. It cuts off all power from the throttle to the engine. Just like you pull in the levers to stop your scooter, you do the same for the clutch even though it isnt a brake lever, you just gotta use your right foot to also press down on the rear brake. And you dont need to worry about down shifting while moving, you can do it at a stop, as long as the clutch is fully pulled in, you can kick the gear shifter like crazy and shift all the way down to 1st again.

Down shifting while moving can also help slow you down, it's called engine braking, basically, the engine runs at lower RPM's in a lower gear, so when you go from a high to low gear while moving, you slow down. This isnt really needed, but it's useful and is taught as a lesson in the MSF.

Most bikes have 1 gear shift lever, you gotta kick down to shift down, and lift it with your toes to make it shift up. But some bikes I've another lever connected, you kick both down, but the back on shifts up. Really it's just a arm connected to the actual shift lever, when you kick down on it, it causes the front lever to go up, which makes you shift up. Like a see-saw, imagine someone sits on the right of it, and no one on the left, the left goes up, while the right is put down.

Heres the bike I took my class on

ok, so for those who used the msf bikes, how well did the skills/knowledge transfer over to your scooter? What was the adjustment period like? How differently did your scooter respond to your bike skills, if at all?

This was actually my second question here.
viewtopic.php?t=3878&highlight=

I wound up using their bike, and I would recommend it to anyone. When I was doing Okinawan kobudō and we worked on bō staff, we would train with one heavier at first and move on to a lighter one, because once you've whipped something that heavy around a lighter one will be no problem at all. And the same logic I think applies to the bikes. Once you learn to counter-steer on something heavier your Buddy will practically respond to your thoughts.
As others have said, you would miss out on a lot without shifting, almost to the point of making the class sort of not worth it. So many of the drills depend on "shift into second gear at this point" and the like. I took mine on a Nighthawk, and the only downside for me was that it kind of made me want a Nighthawk.
There was no real adjustment period. I actually rode to the class on my Buddy, and by the time I got home I was already okay with my left hand being a brake and not a clutch.

As Piedmont said, riding the Buddy is much easier than the MSF bikes. It's MUCH lighter...

The skills taught carry over very well as even though it's called a scooter, it is still a motorcycle in regards to why it handles the way it does and the issues you have to think of while riding. As my instructor kept pointing out to the class the real work in riding is mental. The bike/scooter is just a machine.

Its simple. Use theirs.
Why risk dropping yours, when you can risk dropping theirs?

Dennis

Transferring from a giant bike I cant lift, with bigger tires, and more power, to a little dinky scooter with 10 inch tires. It was easy

Learning to do tight maneuvers in small boxes with a big bike, redoing them on the scooter was easy as pie. Small amount of push and leaning has a greater effect on the scooter because of it's smaller tire size. It was like I knew how to already ride my scooter after taking the MSF. But I played it safe in the neighborhood for 2-3 weeks everyday before going on the main streets.

thanks for the link Piedmont
after reading that thread and these other responses, now I'm leaning towards using their bikes

I'm also thinking that a portion of the cost I'm having to pay is supposed to cover their bikes, insurance, gas, etc. If they were giving discounts for bringing in your own scooter, then that'd be one thing, but they aren't, and they don't have a pure scooter class...sooo

i'm leaning more towards using their bike now.

I live in an area that a number of biker groups visit regularly. Every weekend you can see various groups traveling between one of the shops that's towards the east of me, to the bar/diner to the west of me, or just passing through. I'm thinking that if I understand how their bikes work, and the distance/timing adjustments that they have to make in comparison to my scooter, then that might mean less stress for the time when I inevitably am being passed or followed by them.

Agreed. I change my vote. Use theirs.

My landlord used to teach the MSF course, and has been telling me to go ahead and use my scooter. According to him, my Buddy 50 is "a lot more finnicky" than the Yamaha bikes they use for the MSF, so it'd be nice for me to do the lessons on my scooter. And I'd agree--while I wouldn't trade my scooter for anything, they own one of the Yamahas, and I rode it for a bit--it's definitely a different ride.

Still, if you think you might drop or hit someone, go ahead and use the provided bike. It's not difficult to handle; just a lot different.

Heres another thing. When people hold their clutch in and rev the throttle, they can make vroom vroom sounds (which when sitting still with 20 people doing it at once, it chokes you to death) When you try it on your scooter, you take off!

jfrost2 wrote:Heres another thing. When people hold their clutch in and rev the throttle, they can make vroom vroom sounds (which when sitting still with 20 people doing it at once, it chokes you to death) When you try it on your scooter, you take off!

Not being able to rev up the engine at a stop like that is probably the ONLY thing "wrong" with owning a buddy so far.

anndelise wrote:

jfrost2 wrote:Heres another thing. When people hold their clutch in and rev the throttle, they can make vroom vroom sounds (which when sitting still with 20 people doing it at once, it chokes you to death) When you try it on your scooter, you take off!

Not being able to rev up the engine at a stop like that is probably the ONLY thing "wrong" with owning a buddy so far.

If you hold the brake you can do it.

I did it in their bikes and I would recommend you do the same.
Yes, you have to learn how to shift, but that takes all about 10 minutes.

I think if you do it on an automatic, a lot of the curse becomes boring as it involves clutch control.

I understand you will not be needing the clutch control on your Buddy, but the skills you gain on balancing while doing more than one thing at once will transfer to the Buddy.

Their bikes are light 250cc units, but still have bigger tires and weight more than your scoot. That will also help you with the Buddy as the exercises will be more difficult in their bikes, which in turn will make your skills a bit sharper in balancing that weight and bigger tire during the different maneauvers.

After the course your Buddy will feel more nimble and light, but that is the result of handling the challenges with a bigger/heavier bike.

There is almost no risk of anyone running into you unless they are wacko. The instructors do a very good job on pacing people the proper distance and such.

anndelise wrote:Scullyfu, did you drop your scoot during the course? Had you ridden your scooter much prior to the course? Did you do anything special to prepare you or your scoot for it? Oh, and did you ride your scoot to the class?

didn't drop her, didn't run into anyone, no one ran into me. i had ridden my scooter about a month prior to the msf course, but only around my area, no out of town jaunts and no rides to work (too much a.m. traffic without knowing some defensive moves first). preparation: have a full tank of gas; wear the proper clothing they advise. yes, i rode my scooter to the class. on the way home, i got caught going on the freeway for a bit. thank gawd it was rush hour and all the cars were sitting still in lanes. LOL the entrance lane turned into the exit lane, so i just putted along until i could get off the freeway. whew! i was nervous as hell.

Ok, I think that last paragraph pretty much convinced me that I would rather use my own scooter for the course. But I'll probably have Richard follow me in his car as I travel into town for the course and home again.

i lived in b'ham for six years. where is your course at? make sure you have a valid permit and proof of insurance with you. those were the qualifications for allowing the use of your own scooter at my class.

Another question… do they cover speeds higher than say 30mph?
I find I'm comfortable with 30-40mph, but higher than 40 makes me nervous still.

i think 20 was about as fast as they had us go. this was to practice sudden stops. the course layout isn't that big, so unless you're really gunning it, you can't get going too fast.

good luck!

I have past motorcycle experience, and that is the reason I am getting an AUTOMATIC scooter. I'm lame, I know, but shifting is just one more distraction to me (read: I HAVE ADD!!!!!whatwasthat...COOKIES!...what were we talking about?)

I was able to reserve a Buddy at my novice course that starts tonight. THEIR Buddy. I have been warned that it may not be in very good shape, but at least it's a Buddy.

~SITRwish me luck...

scullyfu wrote:

Ok, I think that last paragraph pretty much convinced me that I would rather use my own scooter for the course. But I'll probably have Richard follow me in his car as I travel into town for the course and home again.

i lived in b'ham for six years. where is your course at? make sure you have a valid permit and proof of insurance with you. those were the qualifications for allowing the use of your own scooter at my class.

thanks for the answers scullyfu

It's up by the mall, on the side of Target. They have some parking lots set off to the other side of the road. So you have Target, parking lot, road, parking lot surrounded by bushes/trees. It's in one of those. I'm thinking of driving up there (in my van) to see if the markings are on the ground and if it's open to go there to practice during the weekdays. There's no fences or anything. But I'm not sure if there's a sign or such.

I don't have a parking lot to practice around me, so I'd have to travel to one anyways..and what better lot to practice on, eh??

ScootingInTheRain wrote:~SITRwish me luck...

i wish you luck!! and enjoyment.

So...north of seattle but south of bellingham ("awesome"), eh?? hehehe
okok, maybe bham isn't all that awesome.....

how long have you been scooting in the rain? (not the name, the activity)

anndelise wrote:

ScootingInTheRain wrote:~SITRwish me luck...

i wish you luck!! and enjoyment.

So...north of seattle but south of bellingham ("awesome"), eh?? hehehe
okok, maybe bham isn't all that awesome.....

how long have you been scooting in the rain? (not the name, the activity)

Thanks for the luck!

Here's the rub: I DON'T HAVE MY BUDDY YET!!!!! Ducati Seattle assures me it will be within about a week. Does mentally scooting whilst driving my lame car count?

~SITRstillNotQuiteAwesome

I got my Buddy from Kent Kawasaki..in Kent. Yeah, I drove my van all the way down there..and back..and it made it!!!...twice even!!! But it won't make it again I'm sure. But last I saw, they only had the seafoam green left..and maybe a baby blue. (and now a cream 50cc with 50miles on it )

I wonder what it'll be like riding in the rain.
But first, I guess, is getting in lots and lots of practice with nice dry weather while we can, right?? hehehe

let us know how your course goes.

I used the MSF cycle for the first field session and had no real problems. I used my Buddy which I was familiar with for the second so I could concentrate on the details without worrying about shifting and a different brake layout for the test.

Other people in the course were having so much difficulty with the cycles that I felt like I was cheating with the Buddy

Ok, I just sent off my registration form and the payment.

Yesterday my insurance guy suggested for me to use my own scooter for the course. He gave a convincing reason which pretty much resembled my thoughts on it. However, when I gave him the "on the other hand" reasons, he was left stumped as both had good/bad points to each.

He did tell me that his office overlooks the b'ham course I'll be using. He says that it's freely available during the weekdays for people to practice on.

So I'm thinking that I could ride into town, practice on their course, and ride home about 2-3 times a week before my own class starts. This will give me some practice with my own scooter. Meanwhile, I could take the class using their scooter, which would teach me some other things.

So when I sent in my registration and payment this morning, I included a letter informing them that I wanted to use their bike instead of my scooter, and that I hoped that this change doesn't cause any problems for them.

So, decision's been made.....
(for now )

I too had my scoot for a week before taking the MSF. I used their bike (Suzuki GZ250) and am glad I did. It was helpful to get a better understanding of the mechanics of shifting even though the Buddy is auto. Also, it being a heavier machine - it was easier to ride the Buddy after I had polished some skills on that. Do crashes, but some close calls, mostly because the class was crowded and people would stall out frequently.