Origin of the 4T stella engine?

mqracing · Post by **mqracing** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:38 pm

I was wondering about the origins of the Stella 4t engine. Did the factory start with a clean sheet of paper on this design? O is it based on a "classic" engine design from one of the biggies?

As I understand it--- the gearbox is the same (0r mostly the same?) btwn the 22T and 4T--- is this correct?

Also sort of curious--- though I don't think it's a dealbreaker for me at all--- why the new 4T engine was not designed with fuel injection.

just curious. The 4T is on my short list. I'm interested in getting a bike with some classic (vintage) cred--- and there are several features of the stella that I like--- as just one example, that you can switch front and rear wheels--- good design feature if you want to go on the road for an extended trip.

I'm really happy to see Genuine supporting this model and offering it here in the states.

JohnKiniston · Post by **JohnKiniston** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:53 pm

It's based on the LML 2T engine.

I thought the Star 200i was out but it looks like the review I saw was for the Star 200 Deluxe not the 200i.

Tipper · Post by **Tipper** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:07 pm

I don't think the 200i has been released yet has it ?

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:48 pm

LML had a previous 4T engine for the Star, but that model was available only in Northern Africa and possibly one other market. That may have been the seed for the current Stella engine, but it certainly developed from that. I'd heard that early versions of the 4T engine suffered from low performance. In fact, at one point there was buzz about modifying the 2T to pass CA emissions and make the Stella a "50 state scooter."

So there must have been a breakthrough in the design at some point that allowed them to get power comparable to the 2T our of a 4 stroke.

The engine design is clearly not born out of efficiency or dynamics or anything other than trying to do whatever possible to cram a 4T into a cavity designed around something totally different. So we get the air box on the top, the oil filter behind the spare. etc.

vantage · Post by **vantage** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:16 pm

The redesigned the Stella frame to accomodate the 4t motor, I would not call that stuffing it into the same space as the 2t.

Even developing countries and their citizens are waking up to the perils of polution, and LML has an established market in the third world. This likely drove the development of the 4t motor than the ability to sell a few machines in California.

Competition is a wonderful thing.

Silver Streak · Post by **Silver Streak** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:56 pm

JohnKiniston wrote:It's based on the LML 2T engine.

I seriously doubt that. While the outside dimensions are similar, the castings would have to be totally different.

The physical dimension specs are nearly identical to the old Bajaj 4T, but the performance is greater. An evolution of that general design?

JohnKiniston · Post by **JohnKiniston** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:35 pm

I have yet to open my 4T Engine or a Bajaj so I'm I'm basing my thoughts off the resources I have in the Spare Parts manual, the Stella 2T Service manual and my knowledge from working on my LML 2T engine.

To me the design looks more like the LML 2T than the Bajaj Legend engine diagram I've found, Especially around the kickstart and gear train which are are different looking on the Bajaj than the LML/Vespa design.

Tipper have you opened up your 4T Yet or know anyone who has?

Tipper · Post by **Tipper** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:11 pm

JohnKiniston wrote:
Tipper have you opened up your 4T Yet or know anyone who has?

Not yet but my friend with the 200 is taking his to a dealer soon to check out where this clunking noise is coming from so I will ask the dealer to take some pictures when he is in there.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:25 am

It would be neat to see a 4t apart...Hopefully not on my workbench >LOL

I wonder how much crossover there is. Yes, it has some "quirky" features ( that oil filter), but I've seen far worse, and it does seem to run pretty well.

pesce · Post by **pesce** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:51 am

I can't see it well, where is that Dang oil filter?

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:21 am

pesce wrote:I can't see it well, where is that Dang oil filter?

Left side, up behind the spare, way up, hidden by a metal cover.

I'm doing an oil change this weekend and will be taking pics for a tutorial.

JohnKiniston · Post by **JohnKiniston** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:36 am

ericalm wrote:
pesce wrote:I can't see it well, where is that Dang oil filter?
Left side, up behind the spare, way up, hidden by a metal cover.

I'm doing an oil change this weekend and will be taking pics for a tutorial.

Wait, You have filters!?!?

Where in the US did you find them? I'm still waiting for my local dealer to get the ones they ordered from scooterworks in uh I think it may have been July.

Pleasepleaseplease tell me you have a source.

pesce · Post by **pesce** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:57 am

JohnKiniston wrote:
ericalm wrote:
pesce wrote:I can't see it well, where is that Dang oil filter?
Left side, up behind the spare, way up, hidden by a metal cover.

I'm doing an oil change this weekend and will be taking pics for a tutorial.
I can't wait!

Tipper · Post by **Tipper** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:05 am

ericalm wrote:
pesce wrote:I can't see it well, where is that Dang oil filter?
Left side, up behind the spare, way up, hidden by a metal cover.

I'm doing an oil change this weekend and will be taking pics for a tutorial.

They moved the oil filter on the 200 it's on the right hand side next to the kickstart.

You have to remove the rear shock mount to get to the air filter though.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:11 am

Tipper wrote:
ericalm wrote:
pesce wrote:I can't see it well, where is that Dang oil filter?
Left side, up behind the spare, way up, hidden by a metal cover.

I'm doing an oil change this weekend and will be taking pics for a tutorial.
They moved the oil filter on the 200 it's on the right hand side next to the kickstart.

You have to remove the rear shock mount to get to the air filter though.

Is it possible you are referring to the oil STRAINER, which is under the cap on the right side near the kick starter shaft?
If so, then the oil FILTER that Eric is referring to is on the wheel side of the engine and requires rim removal to access.

My question is a result of me finding it hard to believe LML would redesign a crankcase half for a rather small bore/stroke increase.

However, if they did a case redesign that would be a good thing.
I think a lot of Stella 150's will get their oil filter services overlooked because of the location.

Rob

Tipper · Post by **Tipper** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:40 am

Robbie wrote:
Tipper wrote:
ericalm wrote: Left side, up behind the spare, way up, hidden by a metal cover.

I'm doing an oil change this weekend and will be taking pics for a tutorial.
They moved the oil filter on the 200 it's on the right hand side next to the kickstart.

You have to remove the rear shock mount to get to the air filter though.
Is it possible you are referring to the oil STRAINER, which is under the cap on the right side near the kick starter shaft?
If so, then the oil FILTER that Eric is referring to is on the wheel side of the engine and requires rim removal to access.

My question is a result of me finding it hard to believe LML would redesign a crankcase half for a rather small bore/stroke increase.

However, if they did a case redesign that would be a good thing.
I think a lot of Stella 150's will get their oil filter services overlooked because of the location.

Rob

Nope the oil filter as marked on the cover in this picture.

The strainer is under the cover on the left.

JohnKiniston · Post by **JohnKiniston** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:31 pm

Wow Tipper, That's weird.

So they have two different case designs in production, That seems like a waste to me, I would have done case with 3 topends and maybe done like Piaggio did and rotate the big bore so it wouldn't bolt up.

Tipper · Post by **Tipper** » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:40 pm

The 4T clutch is different as well as the gear assembly as far as I know.

Im waiting for a dealer to email me a copy of the 200 4t service manual which should shed some more light on it.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:52 am

Thanks for the photo Tipper......I too am surprised at the redesigned crankcase, but pleased from the standpoint of potental longetivity.

Rob

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:42 pm

Tipper wrote:The 4T clutch is different as well as the gear assembly as far as I know.

Im waiting for a dealer to email me a copy of the 200 4t service manual which should shed some more light on it.

I think I had a PX clutch put in my first Stella 4T at some point. I'll double check with the Man. I know the clutch plates are 100% interchangeable.

Tipper · Post by **Tipper** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:08 pm

ericalm wrote:
Tipper wrote:The 4T clutch is different as well as the gear assembly as far as I know.

Im waiting for a dealer to email me a copy of the 200 4t service manual which should shed some more light on it.
I think I had a PX clutch put in my first Stella 4T at some point. I'll double check with the Man. I know the clutch plates are 100% interchangeable.

On the 125 and 150 yes but the 200 clutch was re-designed to deal with the extra torque.