Craigslist Find; Your Thoughts Wanted...

[squidsie]

I have come across a Craigslist sale of a 2010 4T Stella with only 145 miles, priced at $1795. However, the Stella is a "Theft Recovery (Salvage Title)".

There are a few pictures included and a few of my concerns are:

1. the fact that its a "Theft Recovery (Salvage Title)".

2. the leg shield is somewhat damaged. Not noticeable with a quick look, but i have inspected the photos. this must very well be from the theft.

3. there is no spare tire (which I am sure could be easy to replace).

4. the seat is black, rather than the tan color that comes with the Yellow Dijon 4T model. Maybe this is not a big deal, but I dont know...

I am currently saving up for a Stella and it will be my first scooter. I am looking for something reliable. The price on this post is really great, but I do not know much about Salvage titles and I'm sure its priced much lower because of this. Even though its priced much lower than a new Stella it is still a lot of money. I have come across the post a few times now and it's really got me thinking that maybe it just might be a good buy for my first scooter. I do not have a M1 DL yet, but am scheduling a motorcycle training course soon. I have a friend that has offered to go with me to check out the scooter and test drive it. I guess I am looking for some real feedback from some true Stella riders. I would really appreciate your thoughts!

Thanks so much!

~geni.

[neotrotsky]

I have come across a Craigslist sale of a 2010 4T Stella with only 145 miles, priced at $1795. However, the Stella is a "Theft Recovery (Salvage Title)".

There are a few pictures included and a few of my concerns are:

1. the fact that its a "Theft Recovery (Salvage Title)".

2. the leg shield is somewhat damaged. Not noticeable with a quick look, but i have inspected the photos. this must very well be from the theft.

3. there is no spare tire (which I am sure could be easy to replace).

4. the seat is black, rather than the tan color that comes with the Yellow Dijon 4T model. Maybe this is not a big deal, but I dont know...

I am currently saving up for a Stella and it will be my first scooter. I am looking for something reliable. The price on this post is really great, but I do not know much about Salvage titles and I'm sure its priced much lower because of this. Even though its priced much lower than a new Stella it is still a lot of money. I have come across the post a few times now and it's really got me thinking that maybe it just might be a good buy for my first scooter. I do not have a M1 DL yet, but am scheduling a motorcycle training course soon. I have a friend that has offered to go with me to check out the scooter and test drive it. I guess I am looking for some real feedback from some true Stella riders. I would really appreciate your thoughts!

Thanks so much!

~geni.

First off, if you're a first time rider with limited to no mechanical knowledge: Stay away from Salvage Titles!!! Just because a salvaged bike looks "ok" on the outside and starts up, doesn't mean there isn't a whole other story underneath. Also, many insurance companies will either offer liability only on a salvaged bike or not even insure salvage title bikes at all Another issue could come when you try to get the bike tagged and registered. Each state has different laws, and in some cases each county. So, what may be perfectly fine for a salvaged bike in one county could be a complete nightmare of procedure in another.

Then there is of course the repair portion, and just what *really* went on with a salvaged title. Every salvaged auto I've encountered was claimed to be a theft recovery, and only "superficial" damage was done. Considering how few cars are actually recovered from theft, I'm doubtful that any of them were telling the full truth. Odds are with a bike, the bike was totaled out by an insurance company because the frame was bent beyond repair to the standards of the insurance agency. And, since the Stella is a monocouqe frame, this could be more than you want to handle. Then there's the question of what got damaged internally on the engine during that whole mess if it did get hit.

And, while the price sounds great compared to a new bike, realize that the ACTUAL price of a salvaged motorbike is usually around $250 to $500 max. In essence, they are worthless and sold as scrap at auction or back to the original owners who usually end up pulling parts for their new ride. Anyone who tries to tell you that this is an "excellent" price for a salvaged bike is simply trying to make a major buck off you. The fact that you are asking questions shows you're not as dumb as they are hoping.

Are salvaged bikes always a bad idea? Oh no! Sometimes you do find that awesome project for way cheaper than you could buy it for used or new, and sometimes a bashed up bike has a GREAT engine that fits just what you need. But, as a first time daily driver a Salvage title bike is just a nightmare in disguise. Sure, it *may* be OK. Or, you could end up with a whole host of problems.

I would say that if you're looking for a shifter bike to start off with, at that price you can find a nice 2-stroke Stella or even a Vespa P200e if you look hard enough. For some reason, the market has been flooded with good condition P-series bikes in the past 6 months, and with stable gas prices they have kept those bike prices low. Now is the time to buy a steel bodied scooter! And, 2-stroke bikes are actually FAR easier to maintain. No valves to adjust, no lousy emissions equipment to fiddle with (if you get past the initial emissions clearance if your state or province requires it) and no filter cartridges to replace along with oil! And, if you do need major work, it's very cheap to do compared to a 4 stroke Stella. Hell, my P200e needs an entire top end, and the parts are only going to cost me $150, with labor about the same price if I paid someone to do it! Try getting away with that on a 4-stroke Stella ....

[Roose Hurro]

Try getting away with that on a 4-stroke Stella ....

Heh... I built my first car from two junkers. While a two-stroke may be simpler/cheaper due to fewer parts, a four-stroke engine isn't that complex. Especially when you're only dealing with a single cylinder.

Oh, by the way, squidsie? I'm with neotrotsky on this bike... not worth the risk, I'd think. Unless, of course, you can get the price down to $250-500. And even then, it may only be good for parts, if the frame/mono-structure is bent.

[BuddyRaton]

The only reason I would buy it would be if I thought I could part it out and make some money.

4T Stellas haven't been around very long. The price is way too high for a parts bike.

[viney266]

You guys need to have a look at this bike!. It starts and runs apparently. Its a rider!

Remember on a stella, if the legshield gets bent its part of the frame. That 5 hours of labor to take it apart. Then 5 hour to reassmble. That 10 HOURS of labor, PLUS the new frame (600-700 bucks) and the money for paint!. so there is 1500 to 2000 right there.

I would take this thing for a ride . If it drives okay. Take a look at the frame to see if its bent (doubtful), and then buy it used with UNDER 200 miles on it and ride it!

I have bought MANY salvage title cars, fixxed them up and driven them for years!

If you offered me $500 for that bike I would laugh in your face if it was mine.

Man, no offense, but you guys don't know a good deal when you see it. Sure, look it over, but its got a bent leg shield from pics and the trim on the legshield is a mess. I'm sure the plastic shifter cover is busted too (they always are). Just check the steering head and make sure its not broken. Thats a bear to fix, too.

[ericalm]

Salvage bikes can be great bargains. They can also be total money pits. I wouldn't rely on anecdotal evidence from others about regarding completely different vehicles.

If this is the vehicle I just found on CL, the damage looks very minor. I'm still a bit dubious, but this could turn out to be a great deal.

I'd want to have a dealer look at it and give it a thorough going over, then provide a repair estimate.

[neotrotsky]

You guys need to have a look at this bike!. It starts and runs apparently. Its a rider!

Remember on a stella, if the legshield gets bent its part of the frame. That 5 hours of labor to take it apart. Then 5 hour to reassmble. That 10 HOURS of labor, PLUS the new frame (600-700 bucks) and the money for paint!. so there is 1500 to 2000 right there.

I would take this thing for a ride . If it drives okay. Take a look at the frame to see if its bent (doubtful), and then buy it used with UNDER 200 miles on it and ride it!

I have bought MANY salvage title cars, fixxed them up and driven them for years!

If you offered me $500 for that bike I would laugh in your face if it was mine.

Man, no offense, but you guys don't know a good deal when you see it. Sure, look it over, but its got a bent leg shield from pics and the trim on the legshield is a mess. I'm sure the plastic shifter cover is busted too (they always are). Just check the steering head and make sure its not broken. Thats a bear to fix, too.

Whoever bought that salvage bike didn't pay more than $500 for it. For me to pay more than 3 to 4 times what the other guy did and it still has the stigma of a salvage title is not a good deal. That's some guy trying to make a quick buck.

I'll just go to an auction and do the same thing he did if I'm that keen on a salvage bike.

That, and my insurance company won't touch a salvage title bike with a 10 foot pole.

[Keith]

I'd want to have a dealer look at it and give it a thorough going over, then provide a repair estimate.

BINGO!

[viney266]

Salvage bikes can be great bargains. They can also be total money pits. I wouldn't rely on anecdotal evidence from others about regarding completely different vehicles.

If this is the vehicle I just found on CL, the damage looks very minor. I'm still a bit dubious, but this could turn out to be a great deal.

I'd want to have a dealer look at it and give it a thorough going over, then provide a repair estimate.

^^^ I agree with you. It COULD be a mess, I'm not advising to buy it without checking it over really well. That's why you take a tech. or "scooter guy" ( is that a term LOL) with you. Or yes, as suggested even have a shop check it over.

And yes, maybe he did only pay $500 to get it back from insurance. And maybe he is still paying the thing off too. People make money on things all the time (check the mark-up in the jewelry business ). But I don't see any $500 4T stella's out there like you guys all insist its worth.

If ANYONE knows of a $500 4t stella within driving distance of me for sale that runs and can be driven away. BE SURE to let me know I will take 2!...or 3. Geez guys!

[neotrotsky]

Salvage bikes can be great bargains. They can also be total money pits. I wouldn't rely on anecdotal evidence from others about regarding completely different vehicles.

If this is the vehicle I just found on CL, the damage looks very minor. I'm still a bit dubious, but this could turn out to be a great deal.

I'd want to have a dealer look at it and give it a thorough going over, then provide a repair estimate.

^^^ I agree with you. It COULD be a mess, I'm not advising to buy it without checking it over really well. That's why you take a tech. or "scooter guy" ( is that a term LOL) with you. Or yes, as suggested even have a shop check it over.

And yes, maybe he did only pay $500 to get it back from insurance. And maybe he is still paying the thing off too. People make money on things all the time (check the mark-up in the jewelry business ). But I don't see any $500 4T stella's out there like you guys all insist its worth.

If ANYONE knows of a $500 4t stella within driving distance of me for sale that runs and can be driven away. BE SURE to let me know I will take 2!...or 3. Geez guys!

So, who cares if he's still paying it off? Why should I pay for his problems. If I buy that bike, my insurance company will either not cover it at all or tell me it's worth 500 max because that's what the title says. I'm buying a bike for my use, not to be charitable. So he lost cash in an accident... sorry to hear that, really am. But, I'm not going to pay his way out of his problem and thank him for it.

I could've bought a '70 Vespa 150 Super with a brand new LML engine in it for $1700 when I bought my scooter, but it had a salvaged title (and a non original engine at that!). To me it was worth the extra 800 to buy the bike with a perfect body and CLEAR title, because I can get it insured for up to $4,000 if I desired. And, I can get medical coverage. THAT is smart money.

Salvage bikes are not worth the steel they are pressed from. Now, if you have designs on particular parts to use in another bike or some other project, then the price value is different. But that bike in it's basic form is worthless. I guess I just value my money better.

[ericalm]

And yes, maybe he did only pay $500 to get it back from insurance.

I paid that much to get this back from insurance as salvage! Maybe I got hosed.

[viney266]

The point I was trying to make. Doesn't matter what he paid. It matters whether the bike is worth 1795. If you are getting ready to pay 3695 for a stella 4T and you can get one with some scratches and a slightly bent legshield with under 200 miles for 1795. I think its a bargain.

Thats my story and I'm stickin to it

I guess you guys just look at things different than I do. To each his own... To me...it doesn't matter if the guy payed a dollar...or got it for free. THAT is none of my business. The ONLY question here is...Is the bike worth 1795. To me? Yup, as long as all thats wrong is what we see in those pics... and there is a good chance thats it.

I really don't care about anything other than liabilty insurance on a machine worth less than 4k.

And as I said before....find any more of these for $500 bucks as many seem to think they are worth? Ill buy a few dozen.

Got any for "scrap steel" prices? I figure at the going rate thats about $36 a piece... I'll take ALL YA GOT!



And Eric, that's the first pic of yours I've seen. OUCH!, but yeah, as long as the frame was straight. I'd have given $500 for that. A few new bits, hammer the legshield back in place. Paint it funky and roll ...but thats just me.

[ericalm]

I guess you guys just look at things different than I do. To each his own... To me...it doesn't matter if the guy payed a dollar...or got it for free. THAT is none of my business. The ONLY question here is...Is the bike worth 1795.

I think everyone feels that way. But "worth" is very different to people depending on their resources, experiences, skills, etc.

And Eric, that's the first pic of yours I've seen. OUCH!, but yeah, as long as the frame was straight. I'd have given $500 for that. A few new bits, hammer the legshield back in place. Paint it funky and roll ...but thats just me.

Nope, frame bent in the middle, but not much. But an all-steel frame of a Stella, P, vintage Vespa, etc. can be straightened, unlike a tubular frame or the monocoque frame of a new Vespa.

I bought the salvage, then traded it to my dealer for a discount on my replacement. It's eventually going to be sold to someone developing performance parts. They'll put in all the work to get it in whatever shape they need it in. Truly a salvage. Many parts, especially engine and back end, fine. But for a person (or insurance) to pay out of pocket to fix it would cost more than its market value.

[BuddyRaton]

I just don't think that the insurance company is going to tolal it for minor almost unoticable legshield dings. You don't need to pull the scooter apart to repair those. A couple hundred dollars from the body shop max.

Yeah get a scooter gear head to go check it out if you want.

I would think that the motor is worth $700 - $1000...but that is just a guess.

Basically if a deal sounds too good to be true...it is. I just don't see a reliable ridable 4T Stella, with salvage title winding up on CL for that price without something hinky going on.

Opinions were asked for...especially for a novice...my opinion is to pass.

[ericalm]

I just don't think that the insurance company is going to tolal it for minor almost unoticable legshield dings. You don't need to pull the scooter apart to repair those. A couple hundred dollars from the body shop max.

Theft recovery can automatically result in the bike getting a salvage title if the insurance company has already paid out for it.

[BuddyRaton]

I just don't think that the insurance company is going to tolal it for minor almost unoticable legshield dings. You don't need to pull the scooter apart to repair those. A couple hundred dollars from the body shop max.

Theft recovery can automatically result in the bike getting a salvage title if the insurance company has already paid out for it.

Thats a good point, but the OP is looking for a reliable rider and it will be his first scooter. New owners generally think that everything will be fine, nothing needs work, lets jump on it and go. If it was some one more knowledgable I would say check it out and make a decision. But for a first time buyer I would suggest something with a known history and preferably a warranty.

[ericalm]

I just don't think that the insurance company is going to tolal it for minor almost unoticable legshield dings. You don't need to pull the scooter apart to repair those. A couple hundred dollars from the body shop max.

Theft recovery can automatically result in the bike getting a salvage title if the insurance company has already paid out for it.

Thats a good point, but the OP is looking for a reliable rider and it will be his first scooter. New owners generally think that everything will be fine, nothing needs work, lets jump on it and go. If it was some one more knowledgable I would say check it out and make a decision. But for a first time buyer I would suggest something with a known history and preferably a warranty.

Oh, I agree. Just noting that theft recovery doesn't work the same as total loss from a collision. Even with no damage, theft-recovered vehicles wind up with salvage titles if the insurance company had paid out.

This is something I looked up a few places specifically because of this thread! I couldn't figure out why they'd "salvage" a fixable bike. This is why!

[sickpuppy]

I hope this is ok to post here, I figured someone might want to see it. http://sacramento.craigslist.org/mcy/2762380740.html

[Lokky]

To me that damage on the legshield is no big deal, slap on a set of crashbars and nobody will ever notice it

[neotrotsky]

I just don't think that the insurance company is going to tolal it for minor almost unoticable legshield dings. You don't need to pull the scooter apart to repair those. A couple hundred dollars from the body shop max.

Theft recovery can automatically result in the bike getting a salvage title if the insurance company has already paid out for it.

Thats a good point, but the OP is looking for a reliable rider and it will be his first scooter. New owners generally think that everything will be fine, nothing needs work, lets jump on it and go. If it was some one more knowledgable I would say check it out and make a decision. But for a first time buyer I would suggest something with a known history and preferably a warranty.

The key thing is that on Craigslist, EVERYONE will claim the bike was totaled due to a "theft recovery", when in fact that is usually the least common reason bikes are totaled out. Remember: Everyone on Craigslist LIES. Keep this in mind and you can go in with a clear head and not get ripped off.

[ericalm]

Theft recovery can automatically result in the bike getting a salvage title if the insurance company has already paid out for it.

Thats a good point, but the OP is looking for a reliable rider and it will be his first scooter. New owners generally think that everything will be fine, nothing needs work, lets jump on it and go. If it was some one more knowledgable I would say check it out and make a decision. But for a first time buyer I would suggest something with a known history and preferably a warranty.

Yup, ask for documentation from insurance.

The key thing is that on Craigslist, EVERYONE will claim the bike was totaled due to a "theft recovery", when in fact that is usually the least common reason bikes are totaled out. Remember: Everyone on Craigslist LIES. Keep this in mind and you can go in with a clear head and not get ripped off.

[desmolicious]

Remember: Everyone on Craigslist LIES. Keep this in mind and you can go in with a clear head and not get ripped off.

I never lie when I sell on craigslist.

Treat others as you want to be treated and all that jazz.

[neotrotsky]

Remember: Everyone on Craigslist LIES. Keep this in mind and you can go in with a clear head and not get ripped off.

I never lie when I sell on craigslist.

Treat others as you want to be treated and all that jazz.

It's not a matter of "treat others as you wish to be treated", but more of a don't-trust-an-unknown-person when it comes to Craigslist since it attracts a very high amount of stolen goods, tweakers and oddballs. It is what it is. It's just a bit of modern life that's all. When selling something on the net people use the fact that it's near impossible to find whoever rips you off to get away with a ton

[ericalm]

Remember: Everyone on Craigslist LIES. Keep this in mind and you can go in with a clear head and not get ripped off.

I never lie when I sell on craigslist.

Treat others as you want to be treated and all that jazz.

It's not a matter of "treat others as you wish to be treated", but more of a don't-trust-an-unknown-person when it comes to Craigslist since it attracts a very high amount of stolen goods, tweakers and oddballs. It is what it is. It's just a bit of modern life that's all. When selling something on the net people use the fact that it's near impossible to find whoever rips you off to get away with a ton

desmolicious is talking about his behavior, not others'. I don't think he's being naive.

Not EVERYONE lies, of course. He doesn't. I didn't when I sold a scooter there. There are many honest sellers there. Exercising caution and skepticism is wise for anyone buying anything used via any medium—CL, eBay, the newspaper, Pennysaver, whatever.

[squidsie]

Thank you so much for all of your input! I didnt even realize anyone had responded as I didnt receive emails notifying me ;/

I am gonna try to check out the scooter this weekend - if its still for sale. I will take a friend with me. He is not a scooter enthusiast, but has worked a lot on cars. So I trust his judgment.

@Eric: I cant seem to find any real info out on insurance when it comes to salvage titles in the state of CA. you seem to be knowledgeable in this area. I currently have Progressive Ins. Can I expect them NOT to cover a salvage title? this is a huge concern for me as I would want great coverage ;/ and yes, it would be my first scooter so I have lots to think about.

Thanks so much everyone!

[Lokky]

I think your best move would be to call your insurance and get a tentative quote for the bike, they'll be able to tell you if they'll insure a salvage title

[ericalm]

salvage titles in the state of CA. you seem to be knowledgeable in this area. I currently have Progressive Ins. Can I expect them NOT to cover a salvage title? this is a huge concern for me as I would want great coverage ;/ and yes, it would be my first scooter so I have lots to think about.

Once the scooter is operational, you will have to re-register it in order to ride it. The vehicle will have a note on the registration card an title saying it was formerly a salvage. I think the biggest affect this has is that it limits the value should you need to file a loss claim.

I don't know all the particulars because I haven't been on your end—I got my salvaged bike and immediately signed it over to the dealer. I'd think your best bet is to call Progressive before purchase.

Here's what one agent posted on Yahoo Answers:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 643AA21SNb

Progressive will insure a vehicle with a salvaged title and will give you comprehensive (other than collision - fire, theft, vandalism, etc) and collision, but at the time of a covered loss, they will only pay 40% of ACV of the same vehicle (yr, make, model, condition & mileage) without a salvaged title.
Some companies may only give you liability only, some may not insure you at all.

And here's the DMV info on re-registering:
http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/howto/htvr13.htm

Oh, and if you're not getting replies, visit your profile and make sure "Always notify me of replies" is set to "Yes."

[squidsie]

thanks for the info and links!

@Eric: I took your advice and called Progressive. They said they can only offer Liability and Medical Payments, but NO Comprehensive & Collision. I think I could live without the Comp/Collision especially with the cost of the scooter being much less anyhow. But I'm not sure.

There is a lot to think about. I am hoping the owner can provide proof of the Salvage. I am trying to set up a viewing this weekend! Wish me luck!