So... I know I'm gunna get yelled at for this but... Here it goes.
This is my first scooter and first time on anything with 2 wheels and a manual gearbox. I just got the scoot yesterday and I needed to take it to work today... It's a 30 mile ride on side streets each way.
I'm avid at best with a manual gear box in a cage... And I get by ok with that. I know I need more time and practice with it, I just don't have enough time at the moment (We all need to work right?).
Anywho. I'm having issues downshifting. As in, how to exicute a correct downshift. Also, This may be related: I'm having a rough time locking into 1st gear. It almost always wants to stay in neutral or lock me out of 1st all together. It feels almost as if the gear is closed. I mean the dealer said that It would take time to break in... But I feel that this is unusual.
Any thoughts? Suggestions? ...opinions?
I don't really know the ins and outs of the shifty scooter, but having had several motorcycles there's a bit of a knack behind it. I'm sure the same would apply to the stella. When down shifting, don't just run it all the way down, you have to step it down per the speed you are going. When I'm riding one of my motorcycles, I step down a single gear and let the clutch help with breaking or slowing by dragging the clutch just a little. The stella also uses a wet clutch assembly, so dragging the clutch to help with speed control is entirely possible. Yes, the first gear will be stiff at first, but it will be easier to shift into as you break it in, just don't force it if it is too stiff.
So the Stella's transmission isn't synchronized at all and there's a four-sided shifting cross that slides through the center of the gears to select a gear. I only sort of understood how it worked until I split the cases and saw it, but basically the shifter lever pushes a rod in and pulls it out, and at one end of that rod is a literal cross - a metal four-sided X. That four-sided X slides inside the rear axle, and around the outside of the rear axle are four gears, one for each "speed". Each gear has four notches in it, and as you shift, you're literally pulling that cross out of the notches on one gear and jamming it into the notches on another gear. The gears that *aren't engaged spin freely with the clutch-side gears, and the gear that *is* engaged is locked to the rear axle. So when the scooter is stopped, the rear axle (and hence the shifting cross) is stopped at a specific location; with the clutch pulled, the resistance of the oil in the gear box fairly quickly stops the gears from spinning.
What does this mean? It means you can't shift gears when the scooter is stopped because you have very little chance that the four slots in a given gear are going to be aligned with the four bars of the shifting cross. And first gear is the hardest of all the gears because even when the clutch is engaged it's turning the slowest (because it's the biggest gear on the output side) so you get the fewest chances to engage it per engine revolution.
Especially on a new scooter, when all the slots on the gears are perfectly square, tight, and to spec, and the shifter cross is still crisp and square, it can be really hard to get the lower two gears to engage. Add to that the fact that most of us have never used anything else with an unsynchronized transmission, and it can be a real bear of a task.
So basically, if you come to a stop out of gear then there's a good chance that the output shaft (and hence shifting cross) and the gear's slots won't be aligned. You can get into gear by turning either one, or both, of them until they align. A couple ways to do that:
(1) rock the scooter back and forth a bit while trying to put it in gear. This amounts to turning the output shaft, which may give you a better chance of getting it into gear.
(2) Try a double-clutching-style technique: shift into neutral, let out the clutch and blip the throttle, then quickly pull the clutch and try to get it into gear before gears stop moving again.
Understand that both of these is suboptimal. The best thing to do is to downshift while you slow down, making sure you shift into first just before you come to a stop. This is easier if you engage (release) the clutch briefly in each gear, but you can do it with the clutch completely disengaged (pulled) if you'd rather just use the brakes to stop the scoot.
The Motorcycle Safety Foundation teaches in its courses that even on a normal motorcycle with its sequential transmission you should always be downshifting as you stop, so that you're always in the right gear to accelerate away. They teach it as a safety thing, since on normal motorcycles there's no harm in just getting to a stop then shifting downward, but it's a good idea regardless and on the Stella it makes it *MUCH* easier to ensure you'll be in gear to start back up when you're ready to go. I never use neutral on any of my bikes, but on the Stella it's especially important to get into first just before you come to a stop.
But I want to tell you I feel your pain; I've put nearly 20,000 miles on Stellas and could control the thing in my sleep, but when the engine's new it's especially hard to shift, even for those of us who understand what it's doing. It's even harder when you don't understand why it doesn't just work like a normal motorcycle.
2012 Creme Stella (4T)
2005 Mint Green Stella - 166cc, mazz race crank, boyeson reeds, 24/24e, Sito+
2005 Triumph Bonneville -*- 2008 Trek 1.5 -*- 2012 Fiat 500 Sport -*- 2010 Mazda 5 Sport
1976 Caucasian Legs good for 10 MPH
talindsay, that's gotta be the single most lucid and enlightening explanantion of a mechanical process I've ever read on the Web. Not easy to; kudos to yaz.
Thanks for the amazing explanation. You guys are awesome.
I would normally downshift to slow down if I weren't afraid of down shifting at the wrong time and jerking forward... I know that that's due to downshifting while rpms are too high. I guess I just need a lot more practice with it.
Also, the clutch has a strange sweet spot.
|------------------xxxxXxxx-|
The x's are where the clutch is actually in use during the motion of squeezing it. and the capital is where I have to be careful or I'll either kill the engine for not giving it enough gas or sort of take off on a tiny wheelie for giving it too much. this normal? Can I adjust it to be like:
all your problems will be gone in 2 weeks. well, all these problems.
I've been on this forum for a few moths and everybody has these issues. you'll feel it out fast.
downshifting becomes easy when you really get familiar with the speed bands, and make sure you blip the throttle before easing into a lower gear so that you come into it at the top of the lower gear, rather than the bottom (hard stop)
Update:
You guys were right. After about 150 miles in, it's softened up a bit... Almost too much though. 2nd and 3rd are sort of slip into each other which has been causing a bit of trouble off the starting line. Also, when I hit first when downshifting... My horn goes off sometimes
Ah, the horn and headlight issues are an inherent vespa design flaw, exacerbated by less precise Indian castings. The wires for your horn and headlight go through a narrow passage where the headset and shifter meet, and the wires have to be in just the right place to avoid being guillotined by the action of shifting gears. The thing is, the space is really too tight to begin with, and the castings would have to be perfectly smooth to make it even close to workable. The Stella castings are not, and the wires aren't adequately protected. Take it in to the dealer and let them fix it once. If they are smart and know Vespa / Stella repair they will file off any burrs on either side, replace the damaged wire, and wrap all the wires in an extra later of insulator. If they do that, you won't have the issue again for at least 5000 miles. If they just wrap the wire in electrical tape, the issue will next occur with one of your headlight wires, then the other, then the source headlight wire or maybe the horn again, etc. if that happens, I recommend you fix it yourself with a file, some new wire, and some electrical tape.
2012 Creme Stella (4T)
2005 Mint Green Stella - 166cc, mazz race crank, boyeson reeds, 24/24e, Sito+
2005 Triumph Bonneville -*- 2008 Trek 1.5 -*- 2012 Fiat 500 Sport -*- 2010 Mazda 5 Sport
1976 Caucasian Legs good for 10 MPH
This is great help. I'll bring it up when i take it in for my 500 mile maintenance.. but to be honest i kinda wanna take apart the headset and do it my self. I love to tinker.
thanks for the replies guys. you guys are awesome!
talindsay wrote:Understand that both of these is suboptimal. The best thing to do is to downshift while you slow down, making sure you shift into first just before you come to a stop. This is easier if you engage (release) the clutch briefly in each gear, but you can do it with the clutch completely disengaged (pulled) if you'd rather just use the brakes to stop the scoot (...) on the Stella it makes it *MUCH* easier to ensure you'll be in gear to start back up when you're ready to go. I never use neutral on any of my bikes, but on the Stella it's especially important to get into first just before you come to a stop.
I'm struggling to understand you here, and am worried I am running my stella in a destructive manner. Here's what I do to slow down:
1. gauge the distance so that most of my slowing down is from coasting aided by slight braking
2. squeeze the clutch and apply braking
3. downshift at the appropriate speed ranges WITHOUT ever letting go of the clutch.
essentially I am prepared to re-engage the correct gear at any given speed, but if I know I'm coming to a stop I'll work my way down to first with the clutch pulled the whole time, ready to go...
is this inappropriate? am I abusing something? (like the cruciform which I hear is one of the first things to go on stella's)
Tack One. wrote:make sure you blip the throttle before easing into a lower gear so that you come into it at the top of the lower gear, rather than the bottom (hard stop)
+1 to that for new riders. never engage a lower gear without throttle or your scooter will buckle.
