Now that there are plenty of 4t's out there,

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:56 pm

Which is best, the 2 or 4 stroke?

I mean, which is the better performer? Having owned several 2-stroke dirt bikes over the years, 2Ts hold no terrors for me. But if the 4T is better overall?

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:15 am

I have ridden both. Kind of a tough question. The 4T I think is going to stay together longer and is a nice torquey motor. The stock 4T def. rolls better than a stock 2t...but how many of us leave our 2T's stock, ya know?

Dr177 and an SIP road here, so yeah, THAT is better than the 4t. I'd like to own a sidecar rig one day, and I think the 4T would be an awesome choice there.

We did a ride over some mountains this summer with both types of Stellas, and the 4t sure held its own.

Wolfhound · Post by **Wolfhound** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:27 pm

Glad to read your comments concerning the Stella 4T and side car set up.
I have a Cozy side car hooked to my TGBR9i and I plan to hook it up to my Stella later on. As I understand it the Cozy is ideal for the Stella
and that influenced my buying one. Got both from Vespa Marietta.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:01 pm

Really a tough question. Over all for the person that just wants a classic style manual shift scooter for everyday use I think the 4T is the way to go.

That being said...a 4T Stella does absolutly nothing for me.

I hope no one takes this as a slam against them, but I'm a vintage 2T builder and tuner. For me the 2Ts are just so much more fun! Remember though...I'm the kind of person that has blown up more than one motor...and I'll probably blow up another one sometime!

Performance is all in the eye of the beholder. For some it means riding trouble free with just the basic required maintainace, I think the 4T falls into this category...even if they don't sound right!

For others (like me) performance means getting the most hp or torque out of a bike....suspension mods to dive bomb twisties etc etc... for that kind of stuff...you just can't beat a 2T!

Wolfhound · Post by **Wolfhound** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:09 pm

No offense taken and you are right, the 4T is a good choice for folks like
me. I do have a TGB 2t 50cc delivery that has been modded and can run 45-50. Lot of fun. Nothing wrong with the Stella 2t or 4t. Different strokes for different folks.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:55 pm

Teah Buddy, that pretty much describes me as well. I Love my 2T's and love tinkering with them. I own several 2 stroke street bikes as well. That is the main reason I bought my Stella, a 2t still sold in the U.S....gotta have it.
That being said, I liked the 4Ts much more than I thought I would after riding them. Still not for me personally, but a nice bike. I tried to hate them and just couldn't

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:00 am

BuddyRaton wrote:I'm the kind of person that has blown up more than one motor...and I'll probably blow up another one sometime!

I must be doing it wrong. I haven't gotten around to blowing up a bike yet, but I have friends whose engines could beat a mayfly in a race to death.

Next motor will be a built-out 2T Stella. I like how that 175 stroker came out and I'm certain that more power can be pulled from one without totally throwing reliability out the window.

Next bike will be a Stella 4T, though. I've combed throught the service manual a few times as well as the parts catalog and I like what I see. I was going to go for a Bajaj, but I think the 4T Stella has a ton more "low-hanging fruit" when it comes to tuning potential, thanks to some mechanical similarities to the 2Ts.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:24 am

If we do have the cash to buy my "celebratory" bike after finishing these two degrees, it will probably be a 4 stroke. I *really* just feel funny that they just don't sound or smell right, or the fact that there's very little easy tweak-ability to the engines. But, they are reliable and far easer to pass the emissions requirements of Maricopa County (which are some of the most stringent in the nation).

I just wish they made a silver or black one

SockyTX · Post by **SockyTX** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:53 am

Got my 4T in July and have put 2800 miles on her. For a daily commuter she is super reliable which is what I needed out of a scooter. The style stands out which is what I wanted out of a scooter.

I have never owned a 2 stroke but I went to a classic scooter rally and I must say, there was a rush of adrenaline cruising the streets with those 2 stroke engines popping all around me and their exhaust trailing our ride. There were scoots with all types of displacements and mods. My 4T hung cruising up to speeds of 50-60 mph. A handful of the 2strokes didn't make it the entire weekend without tweaks and failures.

At the end of the day I am thankful for the reliability of my 4T. She's fun to ride, looks good and kicks over every time without question...so far. I understand the mechanics of the engine and components but don't currently have the desire to spend my time tinkering with those items to keep her in running order. I'd rather spend my time editing/creating videos of my rides with my scooter club. www.youtube.com/sockytx

magnato1 · Post by **magnato1** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:43 am

neotrotsky wrote:If we do have the cash to buy my "celebratory" bike after finishing these two degrees, it will probably be a 4 stroke. I *really* just feel funny that they just don't sound or smell right, or the fact that there's very little easy tweak-ability to the engines. But, they are reliable and far easer to pass the emissions requirements of Maricopa County (which are some of the most stringent in the nation).

I just wish they made a silver or black one

I'm pretty sure they make a 4T in black, Crew has one. See here:

topic23808.html

Wolfhound · Post by **Wolfhound** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:37 am

According to the Genuine Scooter Co. website the Stella 4T is offered in black.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:43 pm

Southerner wrote:Which is best, the 2 or 4 stroke?

I mean, which is the better performer? Having owned several 2-stroke dirt bikes over the years, 2Ts hold no terrors for me. But if the 4T is better overall?

IMO,
The 2T's, be they Stella or any other manufacturer, require a certain sensitivity to the machine.
A few examples......The machines idle speed begins to increase or, it seems to accelerate more freely.
Both of these examples are signs of a crankcase air leak, creating a lean condition and likely will lead to a seizure if operated without diagnosis.

Or, for no reason, the idle quality or idle reliability (keeps dieing at lights) changes......or, throttle response changes.

Anytime a 2T displays a change in operating behaviour, some deeper diagnosis is called for......this because catastrophic engine damage can occur in a very short time...sometimes minutes, due to high operating temperatures as a result of the lean condition.

This is where a 4T shines.......if it is going lean not much more than a performance loss and some misfiring is the result.
The hardened valves and seats can tolerate the heat, the piston, being lubed and cooled by crankcase oil, suffers little, as well as the rings.
Crankshaft bearings continue to be lubricated even if the top end is lean and, of course, a firing event every other stroke keeps the heat down as well.

I, like others, can't really quantify why I enjoy operating a 2T other than I get a certain pleasure operating a machine that absolutly requires I am part of the operating process to have a successful ride.

Having also operated the 4T, I agree the power is very similar, the overall operating experience is similar, but the sound and feel are, as expected, quite different.

I contend the 4T will, for the most part, be far more reliable and tolerant of the way folks operate, and expect their machines to operate, in the new millenium.
Although the 4T Stella may require some tinkering from the standpoint of cable adjustments and the occasional electrical gremlin, the engine and driveline will, again my opinion, be the more favorable mount for the daily grind of 'not very mechanical' operators.
And, bear in mind, whem I use the term 'not very machanical' it has nothing to do with overall knowledge.
There are those of us that are from a time where most smaller machines were 2T and are accustomed to paying attention to the engine and listening to it 'speak' if you will.

To be honest, I really am looking forward to the 200cc 4T version coming to our shores someday in the future.......I believe this would be more appropriate for a sidecar......something I have had on my 'bucket list' for several years.

Good luck with your decision,
Rob

Stitch · Post by **Stitch** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:02 pm

Ideally, I would like one of each. My 2t for terrorizing back roads and urban drag racing- and a 4t with a sidecar for more laid back scoots.

I see benefits with both Stella's. I wish they would have kept the 2t, and imported the 200cc 4t (or better yet, a 250cc 4t with a five speed).

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:44 pm

Stitch wrote:Ideally, I would like one of each. My 2t for terrorizing back roads and urban drag racing- and a 4t with a sidecar for more laid back scoots.

I see benefits with both Stella's. I wish they would have kept the 2t, and imported the 200cc 4t (or better yet, a 250cc 4t with a five speed).

Ahh, Stich.....the perfect scenario.

If you check out the UK Star offerings, the 2T AND 4T are indeed offered together.
I suppose there isn't enouph of a 'Business Case' (read sales volume) to offer both here in the states.

As far as musings for a 250......I suspect the clutch/gearbox/packaging room is just not up to the task......that really is a bit of a educated guess.

I really do believe, however, a 200 and likely a 200i are in the not too distant future if for no other reason than to have a unit available for all those PX200 operators to think about.....their machines are likely reaching the back half of their service life.

Just my thoughts,
Rob

Wolfhound · Post by **Wolfhound** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:44 pm

As I understand it the 4T is not offered here now due to EPA restrictions
on emissions. The 2T was never sold in CA as it could not meet the state
emissions requirements. This may eventually spread to Europe also.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:02 pm

Wolfhound wrote:As I understand it the 4T is not offered here now due to EPA restrictions
on emissions. The 2T was never sold in CA as it could not meet the state
emissions requirements. This may eventually spread to Europe also.

Since you didn't specify, I will assume you mean the 200 4T and, if so, you are correct from an EPA standpoint....sortof.

The EPA certification is very involved and very expensive for the manufacturer.
Since the 150 4T has gone through the process and amitorization expense is reduced with each sale, the viability of going through the process with the 200 becomes increasingly so.

LML is halfway there because the 200 has been certified for sales in the Euro III compliant nations and is obviously being marketed.
To a degree, selling in the Euro III countries benefits us because they are helping amitorize the construction expense of the 200.....also gets the 'bugs' out of the design before we see it on this side of the pond.

To look at the parts listings, the 200 4T is a 'Clean Sheet' design and looks to share very little with the 150 4T.

Rob

Wolfhound · Post by **Wolfhound** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:14 pm

Robbie, my bad. Was multi tasking and meant to say 2T not 4T. The
200 4T would be a winner if offered here in the future, I think.
New 2T's or any 2 cycle scoot motors are probably DOA in the future.
I understand that Tomos is getting out of the moped business due to
poor sales of their 2T mopeds.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:38 pm

Wolfhound wrote:Robbie, my bad. Was multi tasking and meant to say 2T not 4T. The
200 4T would be a winner if offered here in the future, I think.
New 2T's or any 2 cycle scoot motors are probably DOA in the future.
I understand that Tomos is getting out of the moped business due to
poor sales of their 2T mopeds.

Ah,
I see.

Well actually they (Genuine) could still market the 2T in the other 49 states.....there haven't yet been any further changes regarding emissions.
But, again, from a business (volume) standpoint, why bother?
The 2T has been marketed here under a 'Specialty' varience.....a loophole if you will.
The EPA allowed a certain number of 'borderline compliant' units to be marketed on a annual basis by each manufacturer......Harley uses a similar varience because their stock bikes are unable to pass the maximum decible standard due to the fact the test equipment is placed on the right side of the machine and Harleys exaust and Intake are on the right side of the engine.
I capitalized intake because on a stock Harley the intake noise is louder than the exaust and it exceeded the limit.
Fortunatly, the unit number is high enouph to not effect Harley sales, especially now with the rotten economy affecting sales.

But, from LML's point of view, I certainly can understand sticking with the 4T design on these shores, if for no other reason than reducing the sheer number of repair parts that must be warehoused, keeping in mind that parts on a shelf equal no cashflow.

To the OP.....Sorry, I think we have modified your thread a bit much....so, daily use, minimum mechanical hassle, I vote for the 4T.

Rob

jason · Post by **jason** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:48 pm

I got a new 4T for my daily commuting.

I'm going to eventually get a 2T for tinkering/modding for myself and will ride that and let my wife use the 4T on road trips.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:45 pm

No, no, the discussion is fine and as far as I'm concerned, still very on topic.

I guess the 2t must be more delicate than the old Suzuki 2-strokes I used to own. Matter of fact I still do one one. The only trouble I ever had with one was a 100cc model and I forgot to check the oil.

Still, it sounds as if I would be better off with the 4T. I would think that if I were to go for a long ride at constant speed, the 4T might handle it better.

I believe the Genuine site is advertising that the Black Stella is black. As much as I like the bright ones, particularly the red one, the black one just looks classy.

I'm trying to sell my Honda moto and replace it with an inexpensive, used, very small car for a longish work commute and if I'm successful selling said Honda, I will hopefully be able to buy something to replace it later for fun.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:58 am

Southerner,

Yep, the black Stella is indeed available.
Scooterworks (Chicago) has two on the floor as we speak......all black too,
Blackwall tires, black seat, black grips.....looks right proper to me.

Yes, IMO the 2T Stella, in as delivered condition, could be considered, uh, delicate.....I like that description.
Again, my opinion, if left stock, all the way down to the restrictive catalyst, and RPM kept in the 5200 range (50ish mph) it seems to be reasonably reliable.
Comparing it to you're old 2T's, the jetting and oil supply (as in quantity or percentage) is so close to optimum to meet emission standards that any varience will quickly lead to a overheated and seized piston and rings and any oil supply or oil to fuel percentage disruption will lead to a crankshaft bearing failure in short order.
Your 30 someodd year old machines were jetted rich and fed a larger percentage of oil.......a Stella uses about a quart every 700 miles.....I think my old Zuke 250 X6 was about a quart every 150 miles and produced enouph smoke to eliminate any mosquito problems in a 5 mile radius......and I still blew it up (younger though....far far younger)
I have concluded that as the RPM's get too high on the Stella the port timing won't support the needs of the engine, resulting in a leanout condition and resultant failure......and the fact this little engine has a great deal of torque right at the bottom of the rev range, unlike 2T dirt bikes and the like bares me out......there will be many other theories.

If a four stroke is held WOT, under load, RPM rises to the point that valve timing won't allow any more air/fuel into the cylinder so it just lays there and RPM will rise no further......That and wind drag are its limits, you really can't hurt them.
Now, if you held the throttle wide open with no load or lightly loaded as in a lower gear, the valves could float and then you have what I laughingly call 'piston assisted valve closing' (drag racing term when you miss a shift)

However, when I drove the 4T and wrung its neck, it felt like it has a soft rev limiter built into the ignition control.....power just kindof faded off at the top of the RPM range.
Not a bad thing to have.....

Rob

Crew · Post by **Crew** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:12 am

Here is my Black Stella.
I just dropped in to the scooter shop to update them on the changes I made to the carb. It's a little chili up here at the moment, averaging 40 deg. The Stella is running very nice and starts easily even on the coldest of days.

Robbie · Post by **Robbie** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:20 am

Crew,

I've seen that photo before......you have a great looking machine there IMO......Like I said, lots-O-black!

Rob

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:09 pm

Southerner wrote:I guess the 2t must be more delicate than the old Suzuki 2-strokes I used to own. Matter of fact I still do one one. The only trouble I ever had with one was a 100cc model and I forgot to check the oil.

Actually a stock 2T Stella is a very reliable machine. It's based on the Vespa P series which were real work horses.

Most problems are caused by people like me that really can't comprehend the meaning of "stock". That's not the scooter's problem...that's my problem...well...not a problem....I can stop any time I want to...I just don't want to and you can't make me.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:12 pm

az_slynch wrote:
BuddyRaton wrote:I'm the kind of person that has blown up more than one motor...and I'll probably blow up another one sometime!
I must be doing it wrong. I haven't gotten around to blowing up a bike yet, but I have friends whose engines could beat a mayfly in a race to death.

You're doing it wrong! Actually the last one was because I only had 5 days to prep for the CBR. I wound up taking a 1/4 mile street racer on a cross country trip

But hey....ya run what ya brung and yeah...I was pushing it beyond what I knew was "sensable".

vantage · Post by **vantage** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:33 pm

I think that the 4t on a Stella is a great compromise. A modern quiet, non-smelly engine on a vintage shifting bike that can take a side car.

Of course this is like taking a vintage bug and putting a quiet water cooled engine in it. Or having a model T that does not tickatickatickaticka, I could not do that.

For my purposes the non smelly and increased gas milage engine was a big part of the decision process.

Like someone said previously, different stokes for different folks. I ride mine to church and not stinking like motor oil is a plus.

I miss my little Puck motor cycle, but not its odor.

Wolfhound · Post by **Wolfhound** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:44 pm

Vantage, not to change the subject but how do you like the 4T for mountain riding. I live in NGA and was raised in WNC so I know that
you have experience with mountain riding. I ride in the Bryson City
area with my TGB 150 in the summer and from what I have experienced so far the Stella seems to eat mountain roads.

Tam Tam · Post by **Tam Tam** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:13 pm

BuddyRaton wrote:
Southerner wrote:I guess the 2t must be more delicate than the old Suzuki 2-strokes I used to own. Matter of fact I still do one one. The only trouble I ever had with one was a 100cc model and I forgot to check the oil.
Actually a stock 2T Stella is a very reliable machine. It's based on the Vespa P series which were real work horses.

Most problems are caused by people like me that really can't comprehend the meaning of "stock". That's not the scooter's problem...that's my problem...well...not a problem....I can stop any time I want to...I just don't want to and you can't make me.

Whew! this thread was starting to spook me!

I choose a red 2T over a blue 4T 'cause the shop gave me a sweet discount, as they were trying to clear space (i.e. move out) the last of their 2T's as the 4T's were coming. All I did was add on the Sito plus, and so far, it's just been a new battery, a new starter relay, a new main fuse, a removal and blow out of the carb and replacing some gaskests....and still runs fine. I must admit, I don't plan to outrageously mod the engine, just keep it in working order and enjoy cruising. If I want I want to hotrod around, I use the Blackjack...but for just cruising, it's the Stella, all the way.

Tipper · Post by **Tipper** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:51 am

I have been riding 2T's for nearly ten years now, I loved the rawness,the smoke and the noise.............. until I rode the 4T.

It was a bit of a shock how quiet,smooth and solid the 4T felt when I first took it for a spin but now I much prefer it to the 2T.

The 4T power delivery is much smoother and you can sit with the throttle wide open all day without the engine sounding like its going to explode.

The 2T feels rattly and unstable and the noise starts to annoy me on long journeys (I never thought I would say any of these things !)

I filmed a 2T v 4T shoot out video along the same stretch of road here ,

http://youtu.be/4ITr_xM4bNk

The link to the 2T vid is in the description.

Modern Buddy

Now that there are plenty of 4t's out there,

Now that there are plenty of 4t's out there,

Re: Now that there are plenty of 4t's out there,