Modern Buddy

I have a 2009 Stella with 4000 miles. At 1800 miles the crank failed. Engine was rebuilt under warranty, and the shop told me they took extra care to check clearances on everything to make sure the new crank was good to go.

A few weeks ago, the motor is dead again, and the crank is bad.

The big end conrod bearing failed on both cranks. Doing a search on the internet, it looks like there are a ton of crank failures, and they all fail at the bearing.

I'm pretty down on Genuine- they have had crank problems since the bike was released in the US, but never seemed to require LML to spec a quality bearing.

The 2009 cranks appear to be especially atrocious, and it would have been nice for them to have either spec'd a quality non-LML crank for warranty replacements or done something to extend out the warranty or otherwise cover their junk crank.

In addition to my 2T scooter, I have a "fleet" of standup jet skis. They are all 2 strokes and are all 20-30 years old. I do less work on the 3 skis combined than I do on my Stella- in addition to failing cranks every 2000 miles, I've had plenty of electrical problems with pretty much every electrical system on the bike.

I realized when I bought the bike that it would be less reliable than my previous bike (a Buddy) and less reliable than a Vespa PX. I was told to expect minor problems.

I wasn't led to expect that to get a quality bike, I would have to "De-Indian" every major component on the bike and replace it with components that weren't junk.

Don't even get me started on how every piece of rubber on this bike is rotted.

Grrr. If I had to do it over again, I would have bought a 30 year old P200 and probably would have a more reliable bike.

I agree as every rubber bit on mine needs replacing at the moment....

Put a better crank in it. Why replace weak parts with weak parts?

Because the first crank was a warranty repair.

I did ask the shop at the time whether I should consider paying out of pocket for an aftermarket crank. I was told at the time that the crank failures had been "fixed" after the LML plant restarted after the strike, and mine was the first crank that had failed. Of course now we know that 2009s were the worst of the bunch, but that was much less clear in 2010 when this happened.

Believe me its not getting an LML crank. I'm not replacing anything on this bike with Indian-sourced parts.

"Replace it with better parts" is a little obvious and not entirely the point. I'm grumping about a company that really beats the reliable/quality drum pretty hard, but they sold scooters for years with one of the most crucial pieces of the bike having really high rates of failure. They have both refused to acknowledge the problem officially or do anything for people who have needed their entire engine rebuilt due to terrible manufacturing, which kind of sucks.

I didn't expect Vespa reliability. I knew it wouldn't be as reliable as the Buddy I owned.

My experience, and that of many others like me, has been a lot closer to that of a no-name chinese clone scoot for about 4x the price.

I'm grumping about a company that really beats the reliable/quality drum pretty hard, but they sold scooters for years with one of the most crucial pieces of the bike having really high rates of failure. They have both refused to acknowledge the problem officially or do anything for people who have needed their entire engine rebuilt due to terrible manufacturing, which kind of sucks.

Yep. A 2-stroke engine and transmission basically manufactured from specs unchanged for 25-30 years should not have numerous areas of worse quality than the same one manufactured 25-30 years ago.

That said, there are a percentage of the problems caused by owners who put higher performance pipes, filters and carbs on without caring for the fuel/air/oil mix changes that are required. Insufficient temp monitoring via cht or egt for both main and also mid range running is simply not done in some cases.

So, the scoot winds up running 30-50 degree hotter than stock at high speed with even greater of a difference from stock at mid range. Many owners making these changes never took baseline temp readings from the stock setup to compare their new temps to after then changes.

But that doesn't excuse the other manufacturing problems.

fisher1 wrote: Yep. A 2-stroke engine and transmission basically manufactured from specs unchanged for 25-30 years should not have numerous areas of worse quality than the same one manufactured 25-30 years ago.

This is what gets me. If Chevy or Toyota or Honda screws up their engine design, or try to build something at a level of precision that their production process cannot handle, they are stuck until they can either get the design or their own process worked out.

What bugs me is that had they wanted to address the issue, they could have sourced better cranks because they are using a common design. A quality crank runs $150 retail, and the bike would still have been way less than any Vespa.

That said, there are a percentage of the problems caused by owners who put higher performance pipes, filters and carbs on without caring for the fuel/air/oil mix changes that are required. Insufficient temp monitoring via cht or egt for both main and also mid range running is simply not done in some cases.

No doubt. But it is typically very clear when a crank failed and took the top end with it and when a top end seize started things.

And yes, there are probably more productive things to do with my time than complain about a bike no longer in production. I'm just ticked off at wasting an entire riding season and a good chunk of change rebuilding a bike just because it wasn't important enough for the company I bought it from to take steps to make their cranks last more than 2000 miles a pop.

I haven't heard of horrendous engine failures on the 4T, maybe they are making them better.

Anachronism wrote:I haven't heard of horrendous engine failures on the 4T, maybe they are making them better.

Among other things, Genuine has discontinued the 2T Stella in the US and replaced it with the 4T model. There are several messages about marketability, reliability, and the like buried in that. It also means that Genuine doesn't have much incentive to go back and address nagging problems with the 2Ts. It is a good thing that the 2T LML engine can exchange so many parts with the P/PX engine.

Dooglas wrote: It also means that Genuine doesn't have much incentive to go back and address nagging problems with the 2Ts. It is a good thing that the 2T LML engine can exchange so many parts with the P/PX engine.

Which is why I realize this thread is pointless- if they didn't bother to fix the issue from 2003-2009, they sure won't do it now. In fact, this thread's only point aside from me griping is to serve as a PSA for somebody considering one used.

Or somebody considering buying an LML sourced crank (or many other parts, but most disastrously the cranks). I haven't seen any shops carrying LML cranks any more, probably because they got tired of people irate from them destroying their rebuilt engines.

Then again you can still buy LML drop in engines. for $1300 and shipping. With no warranty. Such a deal?

I have owned three different Stellas with stock cranks and put over 20k miles on them combined, riding WOT most of the time, never had a single crank issue.

The only crank I replaced was for my kitted engine as a preventative measure.

Step one, we need a post-mortem on these cranks.

What is failing? is it the bearings, or is it the thrust washers? Nobody knows, and until we do, we don't know what the failure point is.

Have you ever had a soft-seize? ever had the clutch retainer pop off and the cluch let go at speed? These can cause the crank-webs to become unbalanced ever so slightly and cause friction with the thrust washers or bearings causing them to fail.

My crank just locked up recently, lucky for me it was at near idle, leaving a parking lot and didn't damage the top end.

Lets face it, the LML was designed for India, where you are lucky or stupid to drive faster than 40. Also, we don't know the failure rate of vintage bikes. And i'd bet that stock, the Stella has more horse than most bikes from the 60's and 70's with similar displacement.

What galls me, is not that the cranks can go, but that a replacement is $250, when i can get a quality Italian crank for $125, and a machined high quality one for less than $200.

It would have been nice if Piaggio when designing the P, would have moved to the longer 110 conrod for all displacements, instead of just for the 200s. That said, you can get a base plate and small end bearing to adapt a p200 crank into a 150. I bet we would have less failures and more performance if we all switched.

-duo

Dooglas wrote:

Anachronism wrote:I haven't heard of horrendous engine failures on the 4T, maybe they are making them better.

Among other things, Genuine has discontinued the 2T Stella in the US and replaced it with the 4T model. There are several messages about marketability, reliability, and the like buried in that.

I disagree with this, It's about Emissions not about reliability, They are reaching more people now than they were before because they could not sell the 2T Stella in every market.

And as the Buddy 170 replaced the Buddy 150 and the Blur 220 replaced the 150 the 4T Stella replaced the 2T Stella. There is no reason to import the older bikes still.

JohnKiniston wrote:

Dooglas wrote:

Anachronism wrote:I haven't heard of horrendous engine failures on the 4T, maybe they are making them better.

Among other things, Genuine has discontinued the 2T Stella in the US and replaced it with the 4T model. There are several messages about marketability, reliability, and the like buried in that.

I disagree with this, It's about Emissions not about reliability, They are reaching more people now than they were before because they could not sell the 2T Stella in every market.

And as the Buddy 170 replaced the Buddy 150 and the Blur 220 replaced the 150 the 4T Stella replaced the 2T Stella. There is no reason to import the older bikes still.

Yes, True. And known Stella issues still carried forward to the 4T (kill switch shorts, shift lever area wiring failures, rubber that rots quickly), as well as the new exhaust welds failing.

Lokky wrote:I have owned three different Stellas with stock cranks and put over 20k miles on them combined, riding WOT most of the time, never had a single crank issue.

The only crank I replaced was for my kitted engine as a preventative measure.

If you look into other threads on this issue, looking only at crank failures involving the big end bearing, there are a lot of people estimating a 15-30% fail rate on the cranks within warranty.

Even if it was 10%, that is still way past acceptable for any reputable manufacturer of any type of engine.

Obviously the crank hasn't failed on every single Stella, but there are a TON of crank failures out there, all at the big end. Say what you want, but it is hard to deny that there isn't an issue here.

JohnKiniston wrote:
I disagree with this, It's about Emissions not about reliability, They are reaching more people now than they were before because they could not sell the 2T Stella in every market.

The fault in your logic is that if it was JUST about emissions, they could have continued to sell the 2T bike here as well, which has a stronger appeal to those looking for a vintage scooter.

The 2t remains in production in India. They would have almost no additional costs continuing to import both.

SYMbionic Duo wrote:Step one, we need a post-mortem on these cranks.

What is failing? is it the bearings, or is it the thrust washers? Nobody knows, and until we do, we don't know what the failure point is.

Have you ever had a soft-seize? ever had the clutch retainer pop off and the cluch let go at speed? These can cause the crank-webs to become unbalanced ever so slightly and cause friction with the thrust washers or bearings causing them to fail.

All technically correct, but still fails to explain the problem, or you would be seeing this on P series Vespas. Unless the cranks left the factory unbalanced (entirely possible explanation) or are that much easier to knock out of whack- which brings us back to square one- a major problem with the crank that was never addressed.

And no, never had a soft sieze or a clutch go out. A lot of people have Stellas 2009's especially, where the crank let go on stock bikes at around the 2000 mile mark with no signs anything was amiss until the catastrophic failure.

My crank just locked up recently, lucky for me it was at near idle, leaving a parking lot and didn't damage the top end.

Lets face it, the LML was designed for India, where you are lucky or stupid to drive faster than 40. Also, we don't know the failure rate of vintage bikes. And i'd bet that stock, the Stella has more horse than most bikes from the 60's and 70's with similar displacement.

All apologies for a bad product. We know the failure rate was better, because the failure rate IS better- 30 year old Vespas aren't running around ejaculating their cranks every 2000 miles- this is just not a systemic problem seen outside of the LML universe.

Maybe LML gets by with it in India because they don't go over 40 mph, but that still means that Genuine should have spec'd a better crank for the American market.

Finally, Vespa sold several bikes with hotter engines than the Stella (T5, P200 to name 2 just on the P series line). Maybe the Stella has more than most models, but there still were mass produced bikes using the same bottom end design. NONE OF THEM have Stella style failure rates.

What galls me, is not that the cranks can go, but that a replacement is $250, when i can get a quality Italian crank for $125, and a machined high quality one for less than $200.

It would have been nice if Piaggio when designing the P, would have moved to the longer 110 conrod for all displacements, instead of just for the 200s. That said, you can get a base plate and small end bearing to adapt a p200 crank into a 150. I bet we would have less failures and more performance if we all switched.

The longer rod would be nice for many reasons. But the short rod motors were just fine, as long as LML didn't make the crank.

Anachronism wrote:

JohnKiniston wrote:
I disagree with this, It's about Emissions not about reliability, They are reaching more people now than they were before because they could not sell the 2T Stella in every market.

The fault in your logic is that if it was JUST about emissions, they could have continued to sell the 2T bike here as well, which has a stronger appeal to those looking for a vintage scooter.

The 2t remains in production in India. They would have almost no additional costs continuing to import both.

Where's your documentation of the 2T bike having stronger appeal?

There is no reason to have two models of the same bike competing against each other either. Even if LML is still making and selling the 2T Star for other markets. You have to remember the Stella and Star are different and because of that LML only does so many production runs of the Stella's for Genuine.

Dealers only have so much show room space, And the 4T Does everything the 2T bikes did and can be sold nationwide.

fisher1 wrote: Yes, True. And known Stella issues still carried forward to the 4T (kill switch shorts, shift lever area wiring failures, rubber that rots quickly), as well as the new exhaust welds failing.

Have we seen kill switch shorts on the 4T? I don't think I've seen that reported here yet or mentioned by my dealer.

I do agree that the rubbers are short lived and the pipes do break (I had mine welded back together 4 times before the Sito Plus came out) but that's a 4T only issue. It's not a broken weld, They are cracking where the heat shield is welded to them.

from what I have seen the crank failure thing was a certain "batch". I have two friends with high milage on stock cranks. One guy is over 20K on a stock bottom end, and I know he doesn't baby his bike.

It is a major pain when something like that fails, but I have seen genuine at least stand up and fix the ones that failed without complaint.

I have also heard ( haven't seen yet) that the rubber issue as well a the kill switch issue has been improved on the newest batch of bikes. I have heard the new wiring harness is much tidier and better quality wire. So, they do fix the problems...I gotta give them that.

....There was a time not so long ago when H-D was FAR worse.

Anachronism wrote:

Lokky wrote:I have owned three different Stellas with stock cranks and put over 20k miles on them combined, riding WOT most of the time, never had a single crank issue.

The only crank I replaced was for my kitted engine as a preventative measure.

If you look into other threads on this issue, looking only at crank failures involving the big end bearing, there are a lot of people estimating a 15-30% fail rate on the cranks within warranty.

Even if it was 10%, that is still way past acceptable for any reputable manufacturer of any type of engine.

Obviously the crank hasn't failed on every single Stella, but there are a TON of crank failures out there, all at the big end. Say what you want, but it is hard to deny that there isn't an issue here.

What Lokky isn't mentioning here is that most of those miles are not on the stock crank. Also, while his run of luck has been good with the crank thus far, several other members of our club have suffered big end bearing failure. I agree and I think Lokky would as well (hence the reason why he went ahead and replaced the crank in his Stella) that there is an issue with the big end bearing in the LML cranks.

This is the reason I haven't considered a Stella. In terms of cost I have been able to purchase and repair two bikes for the price of one Stella. I own two P200's and a GL (and a Blur but that's a different animal). First, credit to Genuine for making something available which a lot of people wouldn't ever struggle with otherwise. I know I have. Rebuilding Vespa motors and getting it right is no easy task, until you become proficient and then it gets easier.

In terms of value though. Here's a P200 I paid $500 for about three weeks ago. Yes I have dumped way more money in my previous P200 but I got this one running for under $750 and it's basically a rebuilt motor. That being said, now that I can ride it around you find little things. My headset wasn't on straight and I am certain the fork bearings are going.......but it was $750 and bearings are $25 maybe. So yea that, but these things all require regular maintenance. As far as rubber, 30 year old rubber sucks too btw. Also, mine are only good for around town and at rallies so far. It takes time to sort something which is 30 years old and really start to get the miles under your belt to the point where you feel confident everything is working properly. Basically, a vintage bike you have to almost touch every bolt and that takes time and is frustrating. A lot of people don't want to put up with that. THe reality is, these crank issues have been well documented and reported. If it was a concern for you, perhaps sell your Stella and go vintage, but be prepared for a host of other issues, and get ready to dump some coin on tools.

JohnKiniston wrote:
Where's your documentation of the 2T bike having stronger appeal?

Reread what I said, specifically about "for those looking for a vintage scooter." There were plenty of people, myself included that bought the 2T because it was the last gasp for a classic Vespa sold new in America. Sure, the door had to close on new 2t sales at some point, but I also have to think that part of this was getting them away from the crank issue and into bikes with an oiling system.

There is no reason to have two models of the same bike competing against each other either. Even if LML is still making and selling the 2T Star for other markets. You have to remember the Stella and Star are different and because of that LML only does so many production runs of the Stella's for Genuine.



They wouldn't compete with each other any more than different engine options in any other scooter or motor vehicle competes with one another. If so, your argument indicates that Genuine is "competing" with itself between the Buddy 125 and 170i.

The difference in the Star and Stella is almost all badge engineering, and several of those badge engineered parts interchange between the 2t and 4t. Yes, I'm aware they batch each production run, but that still doesn't mean that there would be huge undertakings in keeping a 2t in production. For a few years at least until the emissions rules sunset them, which is probably why they pulled the plug now.

Dealers only have so much show room space, And the 4T Does everything the 2T bikes did and can be sold nationwide.

No, no it doesn't. The key appeal of a Stella for me was the Vespa aftermarket. Not to mention how responsive 2t engines are to tuning for a fraction of the cost of 4t. The whole reason I pulled the trigger and bought my bike is that it would be the last chance to get one- I thought I would be getting a more reliable bike than a 30 year old P-Series, not a less reliable one.

viney266 wrote:from what I have seen the crank failure thing was a certain "batch". I have two friends with high milage on stock cranks. One guy is over 20K on a stock bottom end, and I know he doesn't baby his bike.

It is a major pain when something like that fails, but I have seen genuine at least stand up and fix the ones that failed without complaint.

I have also heard ( haven't seen yet) that the rubber issue as well a the kill switch issue has been improved on the newest batch of bikes. I have heard the new wiring harness is much tidier and better quality wire. So, they do fix the problems...I gotta give them that.

....There was a time not so long ago when H-D was FAR worse.

From anecdotal stories, it seems a lot of people with 2003 models did alright, but the year before the strike (2005?) seemed to be bad. Then it was supposed to be fixed, but reality is that it got progressively worse until the 2009 bikes.

Genuine fixed the ones that failed UNDER WARRANTY without complaint. And by fixed, they rebuilt bikes with the same junk part.

If you doubt that this is really an LML problem, google "Vespa Crank Failure.". What you will get in results is really page after page of people talking about their Stella cranks that have failed. That says a lot.

Anachronism wrote: They wouldn't compete with each other any more than different engine options in any other scooter or motor vehicle competes with one another. If so, your argument indicates that Genuine is "competing" with itself between the Buddy 125 and 170i.

The difference in the Star and Stella is almost all badge engineering, and several of those badge engineered parts interchange between the 2t and 4t. Yes, I'm aware they batch each production run, but that still doesn't mean that there would be huge undertakings in keeping a 2t in production. For a few years at least until the emissions rules sunset them, which is probably why they pulled the plug now.

In my state there is a different license class for below and above 125CC. In some states the 50CC Buddies can be ridden with a license at all. Performance wise the 50,125,and 170cc Buddy are very different animals.

Performance wise the 2T Stella and 4T Stella are nearly identical, I think reading the manuals the 4T Stella has a slightly higher listed top speed.

The emissions setup is different on the 4T Stella vs the 4T Star. We don't have the Secondary Air system they have, our emissions plumbing looks to be different. Controls are also different on the 4T Stella vs the 4T Star with the switches in a different configuration. I'm not certain what else is different as I've not seen a Star in person but there may be more.

Most aftermarket cosmetic parts fit on the 4T bikes that would fit on the 2T Bikes. Performance parts are also out there for the 4T bikes too, Cylinders, Pipes, Carbs, Gears.

The average scooter buyer isn't buying a bike to Tune. If they are maybe they are buying a Ruckus or something with a GY6. I don't think I've ever heard of someone upselling a Stella as more tuneable than a Buddy.

Only Genuine knows how many bikes they have sold and how many bikes they have replaced cranks on. For every 1 poster saying they have a problem there are a lot more that are happily enjoying their bikes.

I don't know if anybody is marketing the 2t Stella as more tunable than a Buddy, but its the truth.

And is your last post your way of saying that you don't think they had a major crank issue?

Are some 2T model years considered more prone to the crankshaft related problems than others ?

fisher1 wrote:Are some 2T model years considered more prone to the crankshaft related problems than others ?

Yes, seem to be. As mentioned earlier I have also heard that the 2005 bikes were an issue. I've also heard Blue more than others as well. I don't know LML factory processes but perhaps they assembled all one color bike at a time.

Also, the gas gauges break.

Lastly, to the OP. I think you established as have others that there is an issue with LML cranks. Sorry to hear your scoot broke but look on the bright side, throw a kit on that bitch. From there you'll have a nice new scoot to play with.

Ah, the moped anthem. I dropped an Olympia 64 on my Ciao, carb'ed, ported and jetted it. Now it's fast as shit and I'm killin' it too.

As for Stella's, I've seen three crank-related failures. Two fly side bearings and one big-end bearing. The big-end was on 12K+ motor where the air box had gotten loose and un-sealed the channel for the autolube system. While I agree that there is an issue with Indian bearing quality, I'd be hesitant to brand LML's cranks as rubbish.

Just toss a Mazzuchelli crank in there and use some Italian bearings.

I just got the bike running again this weekend.

One thing I noticed- my bike had 2800 miles, not 3800 like I thought. Which means my first crank lasted 1800 miles and my second crank 1000. Awesome.

Looking at all the parts, the crank had a near locked-up big end bearing. It will spin but not smoothly at all and it takes some force.

Catastrophic failure of the engine happened when the locking up bearing sideloaded the piston enough to catch a ring in the exhaust port- Piston had a broken ring, but also showed no signs of a standard lean/heat seize- it had a very safe carbon pattern on the crown and no scuffing aside from where the broken ring parts got jammed against the cylinder wall.

The stock LML flyside bearing was also very questionable, but it is possible the roughness in the bearing is related to me banging it out of the case.

Bike is running very well with a Pinasco kit and a Mazzy crank, jetted just one step below too rich to run.

[quote]Bike is running very well with a Pinasco kit and a Mazzy crank, jetted just one step below too rich to run.[/quote]

I don't think running a mix like that is a bad idea either.

After raising both the pilot and main (94 to 105) jets after changing the exhaust and filter, I also now "spike" the fuel with 1.5 oz of 2T oil per 2 gals of fuel to compensate for the reduced gas-oil ratio caused by changing to the fatter jets and having the stock auto lube.

My going from a 94 to a 105 main results in a far greater fuel flow than the 11% factor the numbers indicate if divided together - I don't know the actual formula for fluid dynamics. But adding the 1.5 oz per 2 gals increases the oil by 25% to compensate for the added fuel and with the autolube restores the mix back to somewhere around the @ 2% recommendation.

It's not leaning out the mix by displacing fuel because the 105 is a bit on the fat side anyway.

I've read the logic posed by some people that added fuel from richer jets should not result in a need for added 2T oil as well because the requirements of the engine are the same - ie: the oil is required over a given time, not for a given fuel amount ... and thus the auto lube still does it's job by itself regardless of the jetting.

This sounds incorrect to me since the ratio is always expressed as the "oil - fuel mix ratio" NOT the "oil - time mix ratio".

I don't recommend that everyone adds oil to their fuel because if your jetting isn't already a bit fat and you are already running hotter than stock, then you WILL displace fuel and lean the engine out even more to a sieze.

A 2 stroke need BOTH the fuel-air AND the fuel-oil mixes to be correct!

Bottom line is that I used a CHT to jet my engine temps back to what they were when stock (300-310 max) and now spike the fuel as well. The temps remain the same as stock and the plug looks slightly brown. Will this mean the d*mn crank bearings last? Who knows?? Because they do have obvious quality issues. But I hope it helps.

I don't defend Stella quality, there are absolutely issues. But I read about people changing exhausts & filters to improve the flow of the engine, and then adjusting their jets without CHT or EGT gauges and then also running the same unchanged oil flow. This situation can lead to trouble.

I'd appreciate any thoughts or critique on this, I'm no pro. Please explain to me why my approach doesn't seem right.

Your bike is stock and running ok on a 105 main jet? I'm really surprised at that- with a Pinasco kit and a Sito, On a 108 jet, the bike was so rich it would bog HARD on above 1/3 throttle. But that was with a BE3 mixer and a 160 top too.

At 7500 feet elevation, which matters a lot, I'm on a 105 main, BE3, 160 top. I'm actually using the stock pilot jet, and I had to move the mix screw IN from where it was with my stock Stella engine, so I feel that I'm getting more than enough fuel at part throttle- Plug chops are brown soot all the way up the plug at all throttle positions.

I think I agree with you that running rich, to a certain extent, will be safer- I will lean mine out a little when the break in is over, but while the cylinder breaks in it will get lots of fuel to keep temps down.

Too much fuel will wash oil off the cylinder walls. When looking for a good safe tune, I look at the piston crown. http://vintagesleds.com/bs/index.php?topic=65633.15

No, sorry for being confusing. It's NOT stock. I replaced the stock exhaust and filter with a PX150 filter & Exhaust (same as used back in the 1980's).

But before I did, I waited until 600 miles & then installed a CHT and benchmarked the temps at various ride locations. After I installed the PX filter & exhaust, I then rejetted both the pilot & main to match the temps that the stock setup had. This took several test rides. Then I checked the plug to make sure all was OK.

So removed the stock 55/160 (2.9) SI Pilot/idle jet and replaced it with a richer 52/140 (2.7). (Larger SI#s are leaner). With the new exhaust & filter, the stock pilot was generating 300+ temp readings at sustained half throttle 35mph riding which was about 40-50 degrees above the stock levels. I also now have a 105 main which generates the same temps (@300-310) at high speed as the stock setup did.

This is at @ 250 ft. above sea level.

fisher1 wrote:No, sorry for being confusing. It's NOT stock. I replaced the stock exhaust and filter with a PX150 filter & Exhaust (same as used back in the 1980's).

Wow. Seems like the Stella catalyst must be rather restrictive if a stock old school exhaust flows that much better.

^ It is.