Melted piston and rings!!!

kellertattoo · Post by **kellertattoo** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:02 pm

So I was doing 50 plus for a good ten minutes straight on my rattler 110 and right when I thought I would let up on the throttle is when it made a horrible noise and shut down on me. I took it to the local scooter repair place and they told me I melted my piston and rings, so the whole thing locked up. Has anyone had this problem? I am a pretty big guy, but didnt think I was straining the engine that much. The scooter is still under warranty so no problem there, but should I take it easy? , or try a different oil? I use the 2 stoke t maxx brand and nothing else since I bought it. It is a new scoot, I just bought it in Febuary. Any feedback would help, Thanks!, Should I think about a bigger scoot?!

scootergator · Post by **scootergator** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:28 pm

I work for a dealership and we highly recommend the Klotz TC-W2 oil. It is a high performance oil and it makes your exhaust smell better.

KS Power Nick · Post by **KS Power Nick** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:30 pm

Hum wonder if your oil injection pump failed....

How many miles are on your Rattler? I am not familular with the T-maxx 2-stroke oil. Is it synthetic?

kellertattoo · Post by **kellertattoo** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:45 pm

Thanks for the input. The guy said the oil injector is working fine and the oil I use is not synthetic, should i try sythentic? I weigh close to 300lbs, So i was wondering if that had anything to do with it!

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:14 pm

Need some details...any mods to the bike of any kind, such as a different heat range plug, variator mods or carb/jetting changes?

The motor seized, & I presume that as soon as the engine locked up the clutch disengaged & you freewheeled to a stop without crashing, right?

kellertattoo · Post by **kellertattoo** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:46 am

Thats how it happened, no mods, everything is stock. The milage was 2964 miles. So right at the 3000mile mark almost. Its not the first time I ran it like that either. Theres been a few occasions where I was doing 55 just fine, but probly not as long though.

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:07 am

My best guess is that the motor overheated as a consequence of extended wide open throttle, under load, with a partially clogged airfilter, lean factory jetting, & sub-optimal oil. Any good injector-rated synth would probably protect better than what was in your oil tank.

nissanman · Post by **nissanman** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:10 am

I suspect lack of oil. Air in the oil line, a pinch or something. I've ridden mine hard, with some mods and have yet to blow it up. Keys blew his up (bad oil pump I believe) so you could ask him. I don't weigh 300#, but the weak link would be the belt/CVT before the motor. This is why there are warranties on things

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:25 am

Air in the oil line would cause that, & I would suspect that if the pump was removed & the oil line wasn't purged of air. The OP didn't say anything about removing the pump or running the tank dry, although I suppose the oil line could have a small split that could cause an air leak.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:27 am

Well, they told me it was the oil pump that failed the first time (at about 4000 miles) and this time (at just over 6000 miles) I still don't know. They mechanic is supposed to tear it down tomorrow. I suspect I'm just riding it too hard. From 3200 ft. elevation to over 7000 twice in one day may have just made it say "uncle"!

The jetting was just about perfect at 3200 ft., so at over 7000 it would have been rich, but it still ran well. Perhaps it wasn't as perfect at 3200 ft. as I thought...I jetted it up, though, and it bogged badly at about 59 mph. Jetted back to the 110 jet and it was good again.

--Keys

vespatech · Post by **vespatech** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:40 pm

ONLY use a full synthetic preferrably something made for oil injection.
It has to be able to atomize in order to be drawn to the top end. your oil was definately the cause and i see this very often. It's even worse when you dump those small bottles of chainsaw oil into the reservoir. if you have to use that stuff then premix only.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:22 am

I spoke to the mechanic yesterday after he tore my engine down. For the second time. Same thing...the piston and cylinder are scored by what looks like grains of sand built up on the piston. He asked what I'm using for gas and I told him premium only and primarily from our local Chevron station (unless I'm on a long ride, then I use only premium from a name-brand station). He said that was good gas...what did I use for oil? I told him I use (what the guy at the store said) is a good quality synthetic-blend oil marketed by Polaris (the only motorcycle dealer in my town is a Kawasaki/Polaris dealer).

He said he uses only Belray synthetic with good results and I was forced to tell him we have no Belray available in Cottonwood...no Royal Purple, no Amsoil...none of the fancy ones. We ARE, however, going to try a full synthetic this time in hopes it will stay together...

--Keys

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:40 am

I recently started using Bel-Ray SI-7 full synth & really like it. I get it from the local Cycle Gear. You could probably order it over the web.

kellertattoo · Post by **kellertattoo** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:35 pm

Thanks for all the input!, I still dont get my scoot back til the end of this week hopefully. I did buy a fully synthetic 2 stroke oil, so hopefully this does not happen again. I will probly get another scooter in the near future just to have a backup whenever something like this goes down.I hate being without it!, its, been over 2 weeks! aahhhh!!!

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:39 am

I guess my question would be; why now???

I rode (and roadraced) Yamaha RD's and Suzuki T500 Titan's all through the 70's, 80's and 90's, utilizing strictly petroleum based 2-stroke oils. Both of those type bikes had oil injection systems which I never disabled. I also rode old Vespas that were pre-mix only. We didn't have different injection and pre-mix oils...we simply used what was available.

I put over 20,000 miles on one RD250 and over 30,000 on one of my Titans. Never had these kind of issues. I'm finding it hard to believe that the technology of 2-stroke engines has changed so much that I can't even use newer synthetic blend oils without damaging the engine.

I'm kind of thinking there's either a design or manufacturing flaw in play here somewhere....

--Keys

Major Redneck · Post by **Major Redneck** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:22 pm

just to add the yamaha and susie had crankcase oil... 2stroke scooters today have none,,, not only is the injector oil pumped into the fuel it is also used in the low end as intake/lube for the lowerend and rings... when i bought my rattler the dealer used premix oil to prep and it fryed the engine after replacing the upperend the bearings lock up after running 1.3 miles...

for years iv used Klotz and still use it in two bikes,,, on the rattler i use royal puple and i well use royal puple in my next new 2t bike in the future... $42.00 gal through Oreillys autoparts... the smell of the klotz is missed on the rattler...

kellertattoo · Post by **kellertattoo** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:17 am

Is there any modifications that can be made to the oil injector or piston?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:40 am

Major Redneck wrote:just to add the yamaha and susie had crankcase oil... 2stroke scooters today have none,,, not only is the injector oil pumped into the fuel it is also used in the low end as intake/lube for the lower end

I don't buy that as a reason for my engine failures because I've had no issues with the bottom end...only the piston and cylinder.

--Keys

Major Redneck · Post by **Major Redneck** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:40 pm

Keys wrote:
Major Redneck wrote:just to add the yamaha and susie had crankcase oil... 2stroke scooters today have none,,, not only is the injector oil pumped into the fuel it is also used in the low end as intake/lube for the lower end
I don't buy that as a reason for my engine failures because I've had no issues with the bottom end...only the piston and cylinder.

--Keys

In no way was I trying to troublshoot your problem over the internet,,, just trying to educate...

scootertuner1000 · Post by **scootertuner1000** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:06 pm

Keys wrote:
Major Redneck wrote:just to add the yamaha and susie had crankcase oil... 2stroke scooters today have none,,, not only is the injector oil pumped into the fuel it is also used in the low end as intake/lube for the lower end
I don't buy that as a reason for my engine failures because I've had no issues with the bottom end...only the piston and cylinder.

--Keys

If it is seized on the exhaust port side of the piston it has been running too lean. That is common with overly lean factory jetting. They jet them very lean so that they will pass EPA. Typical for too lean would be scores under the exhaust port and rings melted into their grooves on the exhaust port side with scores down that side of the piston. If it were lubrication you would see score marks all around the piston and cylinder. The reason it is on the exhaust side when it is too lean is because the hot gasses, they are hotter when burnt lean, are constanly being focused on that part of the cylinder wall, because that is where the exhaust port is. That causes that part of the cylinder wall to heat up more than the rest of the cylinder. It heats to a point where, firstly the protective film of 2 stroke oil is burnt off and secondly the tolerances between the cylinder and piston change when compared to the rest of the cylinder. You then get friction on that one spot between cylinder wall and piston rings.
The friction is enough that it will melt the rings and cause the piston itself to rub on that part of the cylinder wall. The loss of compression will then stop the engine from running once you back off the throttle. Pull the cylinder off and I would put $100 on it that is what you will see, a piston with just the exhaust side damaged and a cylinder with the same.

Modern Buddy

Melted piston and rings!!!

Melted piston and rings!!!

oil choice